Some Positivity

[hollingworthp]

Advice

Personally, I'd prefer to regret for MY actions than for having followed other people's advices.

I advise that you don't put your soft dangly bits into some hot hair straighteners - but then it is is better to regret your own actions rather than taking advice aimed at protecting you from lots of pain.

Or more topical, you are becoming fuel critical in the hold over your destination and the last 10 approaches went around due to windshear. Your FO wants to divert but you are better than all those other guys who failed and you will nail a greaser landing ...

If you are gambling nobody elses hard earned money / capital / home then fair enough although that would put you in the minority.

[Deano777]

londoncalling2009

One would also assume you had your type rating paid for and you didn't have to fork out for it yourself? One is assuming you gained employment in the UK and didn't have to travel to far reaching corners of the globe?

[170to5]

No-one appears to have pointed out yet that:

Emirates have announced significant PLANNED recruitment in the next year, along with continued recruitment by Qatar and Etihad, as one would expect. There is also plenty of work out in the far east, usually looking just for captains there though.

Some Ab-initio pilots may get lucky and get a job, I believe that some (some as in a very, very lucky few) recently got taken in by one of these airlines as F/O's.

HOWEVER...

I suspect that the percentage of guys coming out of schools at the moment, and those who are getting these respectable, actual jobs is way, way lower than 5%. If you were going to do a bungee jump and someone told you that there was a 5% chance that you'd be okay, that the rope wasn't too long and that it wouldn't snap, would you be stupid enough to reason that 'well, I might be one of that 5%'??!!

Paid TR jobs even dried up a while ago; P2F, which we all have an opinion on, will get you what 150 to 500 hours - I've heard some people say that 'well, a TR and 150 hours is better than nothing'...no, it isn't sadly. It's as good as nothing usually, and in the current climate of unemployed crews who have thousands of hours, and there are plenty of those poor buggers, it's still a disadvantage to turn up to an interview (not sure if any of them are going on) and explaining to the training captain sat in front of you that you paid a very significant sum to try and jump the queue.

So I would say to people (and please listen to what was said before - only the people who are IN AN AIRLINE AND THEREFORE KNOW BEST THE SCORE are pessimistic, whereas newbies with a very limited idea of what is actually going on [save for when they hear rousing talks from school presentations or rumours of someone from their school getting into the RHS of a shiny whizz jet] seem to be dangerously gung-ho - yes, those of you who disagree are probably being pretty damn gung ho with £50,000+) is that there ARE jobs out there, in fact there are quite a few. But to get one, and a lot of them at the moment are for command only, you'll need:

- In excess of 500hr on type, current
- AT LEAST 1500hr, or often 2000hr TT (I just looked, Emirates are looking for 4000TT minimum)
- A CURRENT rating on type or similar (ie 737 or A320, 747 or A340)

And this recruitment will produce a shortage where people vacate jobs to go to the sand box. These jobs will then be taken up by those poor sods who have been made redundant form their old job, have been living off the dole and who have many, many more hours than newbies - newbies who will have to wait a long, long time to get to the front of the queue. Or at least close enough to it for their CV to be looked at, before the reviewer asks how an ab-initio's CV got so far up the pile...

Don't be stupid, and don't be naive. Listen to what the people who are actually working have to say, we know as much as anyone is going to know about recruitment, and it's a very, very barren landscape out there. To put so much on the line for the chance that you might get lucky is incredibly foolish.

[Deano777]

170to5

Well said that man (or woman).

[G SXTY]

I totally agree. Determination, positivity, boundless optimism – call it what you will – simply isn't enough at the moment. Without significant airline experience on your CV, the numbers are very much against you.

If it's any consolation, eventually the market will improve again. This thread is very similar to many that were running in 2002-2003, during the industry trough that followed 9/11. If you care to dig out some of those old threads, you'll find some familiar names, such as yours truly, Redsnail, Mad Jock and CATIIIC Autoland, who were all wannabes back then. I started one myself in early 2003, when I was stuck out in Florida, bleeding cash and unable to fly because one of the leading FTOs had just been shut down by the state authorities. Or there's another thread with a particularly heated discussion involving Hamrah (DFO of Astraeus for those who don't know) justifying self-sponsored type ratings as a consequence of the market conditions.

Back then, a lot of things didn't seem right or fair to us, and there wasn't much cause for optimism. But we stuck at it, (and in my case delayed CPL/IR training until the market was much improved) and eventually many of us got jobs. Not everyone, I grant you. I personally know some people who were wannabes back then, and still are now, and others who decided for whatever reason that it wasn't for them, and walked away.

The point – and I'll keep making it until I'm blue in the face – is that while determination and optimism are prerequisites for life as a wannabe, they are nothing without a healthy job market. Timing really is everything. Honestly.

Judging by the number of PMs I get asking me if now is a good time to start training with Oxford, PTC, FTE etc, that message is still not getting through to some people.

[A320rider]

look guys,

it takes 2 years to make a commercial license.
when this aviation market will pick up, and if some airlines are interested in you(if you do your CPL, we may interview you). start for your training.
you don't need to rush, you don't know when this market will pick up for 200h pilots...maybe in 3 years, maybe in 5, or 7...I think 7.
I have as well some 9/11 experience when there was no job at all during 2002-2003.market picked slowly after 2004, and good in 2006.(5 years later)

I can tell you than spending money now, will only bring more frustration. Looking for something else, and saving money for these next 3 years is much much better for now.

if you follow what I say you, you will be a happy pilot in 5 years.

[pilotpete711]

Yep

My 18 cents (2 cents adjusted for recent inflation)...

Furloughed regional FO here, been furloughed for over 1 year now. I've got over 1000 TT and can't get an interview anywhere... not even to fly a Cessna.

Have a nice day!

[Arabian Mustang]

Ok. I changed job 3 times since 2008. But, my jobs have always been in some of the most interesting places in the planet.

[mad_jock]

BTW I have just turned down a self financed TR 737 job for tatical reasons.

1. the pay was crap
2. most TP company's won't look at you with jet time (although LHS is slightly different but it would need to be on a type I already have. It would cut me off from new TP types)
3. I suspect alot of these small 737 operators are going to go tits up in the next 2 years.
4. There hundreds if not thousands of 737 rated pilots out of work with way more time under there belts than I have.
5. I reckon the expansion will be in the turboprop side of things purely because of the economics of running the things.

eg Q400 is in the region of $2000 an hour and an emb195 $3000 for 11 extra seats. And the difference in time on a 1:30hour sector is less than 10 mins.

O aye and I am to tight to pay for a type rating. I haven't payed for one yet and I don't intend to start any time soon. Although if a 757 or 747 came up I think I proberly would purely because it ticks quite a few boxes and I have always wanted to fly them.

[Spendid Cruiser]

Personally I don't agree with mad_jocks numbers or conclusions. Medium jets have a significant economic advantage of heavy TPs for most routes. If one wants to generate the most future airline opportunities then a medium jet should be a goal.

There may or may not be a lot of 737 guys out of work, there is certainly a fair amount of demand for people with a at least 2,000 medium jet hours around the world.

The big problem is how to get that experience. There aren't many opportunities in Europe for 200hr guys. There are one or two in Asia from time to time and there will be more. Virtually nothing in the Middle East.

So there are opportunities, but the market is stratospherically competitive. To be sure of getting a job with no significant airline hours you are going to have to be an outstanding candidate. That's isn't going to change for a long time.

[mad_jock]

You should maybe send a email to flybe and explain why they are going wrong.

[goaround737]

I know three guys that have just finished cpl/irs and got jobs (albeit not particularly glamourous ones, but flying nonetheless)

I believe part of the problem is the endless line goons who finish training, sit on their @rses for 3 months then send of 20 cvs to the majors and believe that this constitutes 'job-hunting'. I even met one guy doing his IR renewal, he hadnt flown, worked in ANY capacity, or sent off a single job application in the year since passing his IR skills test. He just pissed around sponging off his parents $$. These, invariably are the types that land up on the door step of Eagle Jet and the likes, whereby spunking 30k on a job is an easier option than the more traditional method of finding work.

Im not for one minute suggesting its a cake walk finding a job but im really starting to wonder if its half as bad as people on here make out?? Time will tell...

[Spendid Cruiser]

mj, I had a chat with George a while back, hence their business model of exploiting lower capacity routes. But I don't like to blow my own trumpet

[markc80]

Thanks for all the replies

First off, well done to all those who did stick at it (G-SXTY et al included). I am not as naive as my original post might have suggested: I do know that starting to train now or in the next year or so is the wrong thing to do, and when I do start doing this I'd be financing it myself, without getting in to debt, and I also have a good fallback career plan.

By saying that there are loads of flying jobs around I simply meant that not everyone's goal should be to be in the RHS of a 737/A320 filled with Johnny Tourist & Co. There's more variety than this. I should have rephrased that as I wanted to know about people who'd got jobs doing other flying work.

I know that there's not and won't be a lot of work, I do not think that magically I'll be one of those who goes against the tide and walks straight in to a job and so I am going in to this with my eyes open.

There's no question that it's hard, but if Redsnail MadJock etc got thru the same trough then I think it's fair enough to think that I will have at least a BETTER/SOME chance of getting a job in a few years' time.

I'm not relying on boundless optimism. Sorry if it came across like that: I am sickened that an industry that has such revered safety standards is allowing some people to buy their way in to being responsible for hundreds of people's lives. Unfortunately it may be time and loss of lives that rectifies this - a few massive insurance payouts and the bean counters will have to rethink things. Thanks for the smart-alec replies about me only wanting to hear what suits me (wouldn't be PPRunNe otherwise): all I said was that I've read a lot of negativity, but wanted - by posting a message, openly inviting people - to hear if there were any positive stories.

I know there are some wannabes that haven't considered the implications of what they're getting in to. Just so you know, I have and I did so again reading thru all the messages in this thread from those who are on the inside. Though I won't deny that because this is my passion, there's an element of risk I've chosen to ignore. We all take risks.

For now, having missed out on a GAPAN scholarship, I am just slowly saving, watching and waiting, but have still got this as my chosen career. I'll keep studying privately and when the time's right, I'll make the move and go to a flight school, apply for a cadet scheme or maybe make a proposition to an airline.

Oh and thanks again to the few that replied with some positive stories: keeps people like me going.

[Torque Tonight]

When I posted my response I knew you wouldn't like it. The reason you for the reaction that you received is, as you have pretty much just acknowledged, that your opening post did come across as a little daft and naive. Those of us who have been through the mill recently will tell you that positivity doesn't get you very far and that there is little to smile about in the current jobs market. It seems that I was not alone in thinking that a little reality check was called for.

I fairly bluntly stamped on two of your statements, not just out of petulance but because I genuinely disagree with them:

there are loads of other flying jobs out there

When I started job hunting about 24 to 18 months ago I did so with a pretty strong CV, a golden report from a well respected flying school and a four-figure number of hours of professional (military) flying behind me. I would humbly suggest I was in a stronger position than your average flying school graduate. I was aiming for big name airlines but prepared to undertake ANY sort of flying at all. To put it briefly, when I couldn't even get a gig as an unpaid glider tug pilot because they already had about 20 people on the waiting list, that's when I became fairly certain that there aren't 'loads of other flying jobs out there'.

regardless of your industry, profession or state of the economy there is always work to be found

Several mates with years of airline experience have been made redundant in the last year and plenty more are living in fear. When the number of pilot jobs in existance is reduced to less than the number of pilots then no, there is not always work to be found (unless you go outside the aviation industry but you didn't pay for your licences just to flip burgers did you).

So what happened? In the best part of a year of jobhunting I had three options. Two were not really viable for various reasons and the third was the well-known 'evil' airline that causes about 95% of pprune bandwidth to be wasted on flame wars. I considered my prospects, thought about it long and hard and decided to go with the deal. I am now well settled in to the new job, very content, and I am satisfied that I made the correct decision for my individual case. I do not want this thread to drift into the standard old dick-fight but I will say this: If as an ex-RAF pilot I had to stump up the Euros, how far will positivity alone get you as a 200hr fresh faced wannabe? Not very far I would suggest. Sorry to p1ss on your barbeque, but the reality has been bleak for some time and will be for a while longer.

I am sickened that an industry that has such revered safety standards is allowing some people to buy their way in to being responsible for hundreds of people's lives. Unfortunately it may be time and loss of lives that rectifies this

Sorry fella, but you need to open your eyes to the fact that the jobs market is probably bleaker than your bottom-end predictions. You cannot buy a job. The operator that you are clearly referring to has sufficent applicants, every one with a fist full of Euros, to be able to pick and choose. The standard is very high and the vast majority of those who are ready, willing and able to pay, get turned away. Those who attempt the real P2F schemes (private, speculative type ratings and line training with no job attached) will find themselves significantly poorer, unemployed and with nowhere else to go once their paid training is complete.

Despite what it looks like to someone on your side of the fence you cannot buy a job and the market is worse than you think, I guarantee it. Just now there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, but it's a very long tunnel. Good luck though... and keep positive!

[Denti]

As i said above, it seems the UK is still in a worse shape than the rest of europe. Over here in the german speaking countries we have quite a few airlines starting to hire again. Germanwings, Cityline, Air Berlin, Fly Niki, LGW, Aerologic etc. Not to mention that in other areas like for example turkey hiring is still pretty strong. However, you might have to learn a secondary language, as the rest of the world does anyway. Most of the airlines however use pretty heavy aptitude testing as they have more than enough CVs in their database, pass rates of down to 1% are very possible, however they do hire 200 hour pilots and some of them pay typeratings as well, we took on around 120 low hour pilots this year alone with slow hiring continuing throughout the year.

[waco]

......just wait while the effect of the failing Euro is really felt........

If you think things are bad now, just wait until 2011 !!!

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Mark C, don't listen to Torque 2n et al, they are just all gloom mongers.

Pop down to your local flying club and talk to one of the instructors. Within a month you will have a PPL costing about £2k. Immediately start your hour building and night rating while studying the ATPL theory, £6k should see you through that and take about a month. Next is the hard bit but I found it quite easy the CPL, multi IR. Costs about £5k and another 2 weeks total should do it, then straight into the MCC (£500+ 3days).

Blue book in hand you now do the type rating (paid for by the company, 10days) followed by the line training and 6 landings (4 days), then its off to head office for the uniform and away you go. All in all if you really want to fly a jet it's about £12k and 3months. Now what is difficlt about that? As I say don't listen to all these doom and gloom mongers, they just don't know what they are talking about. (And P.S. don't forget the huge salary and all the paid holidays you get).

[markc80]

PPL for £2k?

Right. Let's leave it there.

[jidder]

PPL 2k .....don't exaggerate! 2.5k including the landing fees