Worth Applying?
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Worth Applying?
I sit here as a newly qualified FAA and JAA CPL IR holder with passes in all 14 JAA ATPL exams (320hrs). Im under no illusion that getting employment with an airline of any nature will be tough. This is directed mainly at newly qualified pilots....! Im using sites such as bestaviation.net, coffeelovesmilk.com, pilotjobsnetwork.com etc to gain the trends of the market i.e. positives and negs. I have applied to the likes of Ryanair, Wizz etc. I just wondered are you guys/gals applying to companies who are not currently hiring in the hope you may be lucky or do you feel this is a waste of time?? Some of the applications take foooorrrrrrreeevvveeerrrrr! Just looking for opinions.....
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Dont even bother to apply to any companies. If you have time on type you have a chance or if you are willing to pay to fly and hope for a contract, otherwise just wait until the economy picks up.
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Unfortunately, the reality of the market is that you need a type rating to gain employment.
No doubt I'll be subjected to a barrage of abuse for saying this, but can any Jet pilot honestly hold up their hand and say they haven't paid for one.
No doubt I'll be subjected to a barrage of abuse for saying this, but can any Jet pilot honestly hold up their hand and say they haven't paid for one.
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Errrrr I might just disagree with you guys regarding buying a typerating to get a cr@ppy 6mo contract with some lo-co airline to get 500hrs on type. That`s just rubbish, and it will only come back and smack you in the face through your career. Well, not just you, this comes back to all pilots in terms of constantly deteriorating T&Cs. Fortunately, some employees are saying enough is enough and taking action. Some even move to strike. All this to try and uphold their T&Cs, which are constantly under fire from lo-co airlines who make profits by underbidding each other, and by making pilots undermine each other by "forcing" them to buy ratings and linetraining.
Rant complete though
Here`s what you can do; stay away from the jets for now. At least the airlines. Go for the small operators with twin pistons flying IFR, and perhaps some TP operators. Get some real world experience. Get some command time. All this outweighs the narrow path buying a typerating will get you. The economy is slowly gaining momentum, though I doubt there will be much of hiring amongst the airlines until next spring. In the meantime - again - go for the small operators. IFR and hands on currency is never a bad thing to bring along for future interviews and sim assessments.
So, yes, keep on applying. Just don`t limit yourself by applying where there are no jobs
Rant complete though
Here`s what you can do; stay away from the jets for now. At least the airlines. Go for the small operators with twin pistons flying IFR, and perhaps some TP operators. Get some real world experience. Get some command time. All this outweighs the narrow path buying a typerating will get you. The economy is slowly gaining momentum, though I doubt there will be much of hiring amongst the airlines until next spring. In the meantime - again - go for the small operators. IFR and hands on currency is never a bad thing to bring along for future interviews and sim assessments.
So, yes, keep on applying. Just don`t limit yourself by applying where there are no jobs
PPRuNe Handmaiden
but can any Jet pilot honestly hold up their hand and say they haven't paid for one
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GUTTN,
I couldn't agree more with what you said, I qualified about 2 years ago and couldn't find an airline job, I could have gone down the route of financially crippling myself to pay for a type rating and kept my fingers crossed but instead am now working for a small operator flying multi pistons doing all sorts of work. Its not the fault of the newly qualified people out there that they come out of flight school with an expectation of a jet job, its the fault of the training organisations who offer false hope to those starting!! What is wrong with working your way through the industry, slowly gaining experience until you can go for the jet job on your own merit and not the size of your bank balance!
Back in the glory days of aviation it was an honour to fly a big jet and not seen as a God given right, as I say though I don't think you can blame the new guys as they have been fed untruths and been told time and time again that paying your way is the only option.
I know this has been said time and time again on many forums but all of the undercutting and trying to jump the queue going on right now will only come back and slap us all in the face in years to come when you lose your job to a young upstart who has enough money to pay for a type rating and work for less.
This is no way intended to slag anybody but to show people there other options other than pay to fly, have a little patience and hold firm in your convictions, you will not regret it and you will have a brilliant time on the way up to the jets (i certainly wouldn't change a thing).
Ding
I couldn't agree more with what you said, I qualified about 2 years ago and couldn't find an airline job, I could have gone down the route of financially crippling myself to pay for a type rating and kept my fingers crossed but instead am now working for a small operator flying multi pistons doing all sorts of work. Its not the fault of the newly qualified people out there that they come out of flight school with an expectation of a jet job, its the fault of the training organisations who offer false hope to those starting!! What is wrong with working your way through the industry, slowly gaining experience until you can go for the jet job on your own merit and not the size of your bank balance!
Back in the glory days of aviation it was an honour to fly a big jet and not seen as a God given right, as I say though I don't think you can blame the new guys as they have been fed untruths and been told time and time again that paying your way is the only option.
I know this has been said time and time again on many forums but all of the undercutting and trying to jump the queue going on right now will only come back and slap us all in the face in years to come when you lose your job to a young upstart who has enough money to pay for a type rating and work for less.
This is no way intended to slag anybody but to show people there other options other than pay to fly, have a little patience and hold firm in your convictions, you will not regret it and you will have a brilliant time on the way up to the jets (i certainly wouldn't change a thing).
Ding
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I would happily go ANYWHERE and do ANY job as long as it involved building my hours and continuing with flying. I dont want to stop now. For the next few years money is not a huge incentive for me but I dont want to fly for free. Why the hell would or should I. I have gained a qualification that allows me to fly and get paid for it. I would love to fly in Africa so I might just start looking there....
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Once qualified I was bonded by the company but that was a non event 'cos I had no intention of 'jumping ship'.
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but can any Jet pilot honestly hold up their hand and say they haven't paid for one.
Go to Africa, learn to fly real planes, get good hands on time, have a blast while doing it, and if u survive to 1000hrs then u should do well when u want to join the airlines. Left UK 8 yrs ago, now on DC8 (i know, a bit old, but 4 lovely engines), and a king air when i want to go for a flip down the coast, nothing better for scaring fishermen. There is a thread in here re bush jobs, and the chap that went to maun, there are lots of jobs out here, u just need to hunt for them.
Cheers
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Not a penny
Didnt pay anything for my TRs.
Feel sorry for those guys who are paying to fly as it seems to be the norm at the moment. Its even being encouraged by the training schools who feel that they have to further justify their zero to flight deck pitch in a very poor market...its also very lucrative for them.
And some of the airlines are now only giving a fixed amount of line experience before the pay to fly guy is ejected in favour of the next guy willing to pay…so less of the “We’ve trained you so we’ll keep you” mentality as its proving very lucrative for them as well.
And if you think thats bad just check out the Varsity Express thread where guys paid for a J31 TR and didn’t even get ANY training.
http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airpo...ek-merged.html
It might be less risky to simply work your way up, get some good experience and have some fun rather than look for short cuts...as there's usually a catch to look out for.
Feel sorry for those guys who are paying to fly as it seems to be the norm at the moment. Its even being encouraged by the training schools who feel that they have to further justify their zero to flight deck pitch in a very poor market...its also very lucrative for them.
And some of the airlines are now only giving a fixed amount of line experience before the pay to fly guy is ejected in favour of the next guy willing to pay…so less of the “We’ve trained you so we’ll keep you” mentality as its proving very lucrative for them as well.
And if you think thats bad just check out the Varsity Express thread where guys paid for a J31 TR and didn’t even get ANY training.
http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airpo...ek-merged.html
It might be less risky to simply work your way up, get some good experience and have some fun rather than look for short cuts...as there's usually a catch to look out for.
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I'm in same situation, but nearly 2 years on since qualifying. Welcome to Miseryville. The advice about applying to Twin Piston IFR operators is sensible, however I have applied to dozens, and had responses, yes, responses, and polite ones, however they require 700 hours TT. Jar/Easa Regulations. CHICKEN & THE EGG TIME. I only fail by 400 hours.
I've been applying to a Pilot Assistant job over and over, but apparently you cannot log the hours. USELESS??? Irrelevant, as I cannot even get an interview for that. The flight instructors from my RAF base have taken other jobs, as NOBODY is training for (cheap) PPLs, so forget doing an FI Rating.
I've volunteered to ferry light singles/twins anywhere. No takers. Hour building for £40,000???? Better to pay for a type rating. BUT, my nearest and dearest friend has a 757 type rating, and NOT one single interview due to lack of hours on type. (That is a subject frequently debated on here.)
No doubt somebody will respond you and I aren't trying hard enough, or we're aiming too high. I'm aiming very LOW.
My numerous "contacts" in the industry have proven as useful as the steam from my piss.
I fear this is a delusion for a high percentage of us. I know WWW will take little pleasure in our grim situations, as he is always trying to warn off new foolish optimists. Let's warn the rest of them! (They won't listen. Chequebooks in hands. Ass cheeks widely spread. Tails wagging.....)
I've been applying to a Pilot Assistant job over and over, but apparently you cannot log the hours. USELESS??? Irrelevant, as I cannot even get an interview for that. The flight instructors from my RAF base have taken other jobs, as NOBODY is training for (cheap) PPLs, so forget doing an FI Rating.
I've volunteered to ferry light singles/twins anywhere. No takers. Hour building for £40,000???? Better to pay for a type rating. BUT, my nearest and dearest friend has a 757 type rating, and NOT one single interview due to lack of hours on type. (That is a subject frequently debated on here.)
No doubt somebody will respond you and I aren't trying hard enough, or we're aiming too high. I'm aiming very LOW.
My numerous "contacts" in the industry have proven as useful as the steam from my piss.
I fear this is a delusion for a high percentage of us. I know WWW will take little pleasure in our grim situations, as he is always trying to warn off new foolish optimists. Let's warn the rest of them! (They won't listen. Chequebooks in hands. Ass cheeks widely spread. Tails wagging.....)
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Africa would be a blast. Has anyone got any information on small companies hiring there? I would love to get out of Europe in general!!!! Attaining visas are usually a troulesome process. I would self fund my own TR but only if a job was guaranteed at the end of it.
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Its tough at the bottom...
Wangus, if its any consolation: the conditions are not good for anyone at the moment and therefore its not a reflection on your ability or honed efforts. 
Sometimes simply turning up at glider clubs, PPL clubs or hanging around with PPL pilots can pay dividends in terms of hours and opportunites. Get your face known, get to be known as a good bloke who is genuinely interested in flying and trying...and see what happens.
I have met guys who have done nothing after spending £70k on an integrated course and when interviewed about what they have been doing since graduating have said "Waiting for a job." They havent even bothered to do any SEP flying. Whilst they may be forced fed that they are the best they are also the lowest qualified and any industry takes a dim view of newbies who expect to be given jobs. Tough that it sounds but You need to earn that right.
Patience is a virture Wangus, albeit a difficult one, and you will be rewarded for your ongoing efforts sooner or later.
Stick at it and Chin up fella
Sometimes simply turning up at glider clubs, PPL clubs or hanging around with PPL pilots can pay dividends in terms of hours and opportunites. Get your face known, get to be known as a good bloke who is genuinely interested in flying and trying...and see what happens.
I have met guys who have done nothing after spending £70k on an integrated course and when interviewed about what they have been doing since graduating have said "Waiting for a job." They havent even bothered to do any SEP flying. Whilst they may be forced fed that they are the best they are also the lowest qualified and any industry takes a dim view of newbies who expect to be given jobs.
Tough that it sounds but You need to earn that right.Patience is a virture Wangus, albeit a difficult one, and you will be rewarded for your ongoing efforts sooner or later.
Stick at it and Chin up fella
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Here`s several options for you, that you may or may not have considered; do a conversion to Canadian CPL or the FAA commercial (and get a CFI). SA also seems to have some good flying, and from what I understand the conversion isn`t too bad. How about the Caribbean for a couple of years? Fact is, there aren`t too many small operators in Europe anymore. Too many regulations which favor airlines hasn`t helped either. Look towards the places where small operators are needed. That`s the tip of the day! How to find them? Flight International has an Airline index, worldwide, which is a lot more than just airliners. It lists general info which can be useful to help you in your hunt for that first job. You`ll quickly find that a lot of operators have several types of aircraft, some of which you probably could qualify directly to. Or perhaps fly as copilot to build total time before given command of a small twin.... and the snowball is rollng
BTW, what`s the big deal about flying a jet until you`re drop dead tired when you could actually be having a blast flying something else until you figure out when it`s time to come home and settle down? Give that one a thought or two.
How to find them? Flight International has an Airline index, worldwide, which is a lot more than just airliners. It lists general info which can be useful to help you in your hunt for that first job. You`ll quickly find that a lot of operators have several types of aircraft, some of which you probably could qualify directly to. Or perhaps fly as copilot to build total time before given command of a small twin.... and the snowball is rollng BTW, what`s the big deal about flying a jet until you`re drop dead tired when you could actually be having a blast flying something else until you figure out when it`s time to come home and settle down? Give that one a thought or two.
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Tip 1) Don't bother converting to a Canadian CPL.
I have both JAA and CAN and started my flying career there. You will need at least 500-1000hrs to get a job on a piston twin as co-pilot and before that you will be expected to work the ramp. They are very traditional with regards to progression and you will be expected to pay your dues.
Tip 2) I wouldn't hold out too much hope of getting a piston twin job in Europe. As the point has been already made, the place is not awash with operators like other parts of the globe.
I have 800 hours on PA31's (and well over 1000tt) and am still looking in the UK with no luck yet. Its pretty dry out there.
I have both JAA and CAN and started my flying career there. You will need at least 500-1000hrs to get a job on a piston twin as co-pilot and before that you will be expected to work the ramp. They are very traditional with regards to progression and you will be expected to pay your dues.
Tip 2) I wouldn't hold out too much hope of getting a piston twin job in Europe. As the point has been already made, the place is not awash with operators like other parts of the globe.
I have 800 hours on PA31's (and well over 1000tt) and am still looking in the UK with no luck yet. Its pretty dry out there.
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Congrats to you all who didn't have to pay for a type rating! Unfortunately going to Africa isn't an option for everybody, and where the experience might make a man out of you, does hundreds of hours on light aircraft really make you a great Jet pilot, if that is the ultimate goal?
In years goes by, old timers used to give out to pilots for paying for their own CPL training. Its considered a norm now, and whether we like it or not, in this climate, for low houred guys, a self funded type rating in some form or another, whether bonded or on reduced pay is the norm.
(Just my opinion - take it or leave it)
In years goes by, old timers used to give out to pilots for paying for their own CPL training. Its considered a norm now, and whether we like it or not, in this climate, for low houred guys, a self funded type rating in some form or another, whether bonded or on reduced pay is the norm.
(Just my opinion - take it or leave it)