Pay To Fly threads (Merged)
Join Date: May 2001
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No. No. You have failed to understand the point I'm making. First of all I am of course only referring to British Airlines who participate in P2F schemes, I am aware of: Astreaus, TCX, First Choice, BMI, EZ (the ATP P2F scheme). I'm not an idiot, I know this is going to cure this disease world wide.
Secondly, regarding Type Ratings and Utopia. How can you read what I just wrote and say that? I know that a type rating alone is somewhat meaningless without time on type but when looking at an issue in light of the law one must determine and state facts that are correct according to definition. Otherwise the whole affair is open to pure abuse, 150 hours, 300 hours, 500 hours and even 1000 hours on type are being sold now! It's out of control.
Secondly, regarding Type Ratings and Utopia. How can you read what I just wrote and say that? I know that a type rating alone is somewhat meaningless without time on type but when looking at an issue in light of the law one must determine and state facts that are correct according to definition. Otherwise the whole affair is open to pure abuse, 150 hours, 300 hours, 500 hours and even 1000 hours on type are being sold now! It's out of control.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I agree the principle is wrong, but the way it is being attacked does not have any foundation.
Main arguments are:
a: The pilots are less skilled because they pay.
b: Or it must be illegal to pay for work training.
Regardless from any angle, besides the moral wrongs, it seems that as long as there are to many pilots, supply and demand, we are locked in this problem.
Some will take a short cut, nothing we can do with that is it? Of course if the tide turns, with regards to supply and demand, they will have wasted all that time and money, however if it still rains in another 2 years, they will at least have some more skills then the rest of us. Each and everyone has to decide what risk they are willing to take.
We all know the morally rights and wrongs, maybe they airlines in the past was giving to good terms and conditions, and that they are not able to use the same business model as before. Many airlines have been having to much expenses, and this has been a way for them to survive. Maybe the alternative would have been them being able to employ less people, and there would have been less jobs, and of course less profits, they are not a charity shop!
The market forces dictates what is possible and not, when traveling how many of you have been standing in a queue while someone arriving late with a priority boarding just walks passed everyone and gets one first, he paid a little more, and he might get lucky and wait a little shorter then the rest, but it has cost them more!
Not defending the system, it is just the way the world works - just like on Saturday night in London, if you not on the list, you might not even get in that night until they close, because you have to stand in the longest queue!
Is it fair?
Main arguments are:
a: The pilots are less skilled because they pay.
b: Or it must be illegal to pay for work training.
Regardless from any angle, besides the moral wrongs, it seems that as long as there are to many pilots, supply and demand, we are locked in this problem.
Some will take a short cut, nothing we can do with that is it? Of course if the tide turns, with regards to supply and demand, they will have wasted all that time and money, however if it still rains in another 2 years, they will at least have some more skills then the rest of us. Each and everyone has to decide what risk they are willing to take.
We all know the morally rights and wrongs, maybe they airlines in the past was giving to good terms and conditions, and that they are not able to use the same business model as before. Many airlines have been having to much expenses, and this has been a way for them to survive. Maybe the alternative would have been them being able to employ less people, and there would have been less jobs, and of course less profits, they are not a charity shop!
The market forces dictates what is possible and not, when traveling how many of you have been standing in a queue while someone arriving late with a priority boarding just walks passed everyone and gets one first, he paid a little more, and he might get lucky and wait a little shorter then the rest, but it has cost them more!
Not defending the system, it is just the way the world works - just like on Saturday night in London, if you not on the list, you might not even get in that night until they close, because you have to stand in the longest queue!
Is it fair?
Join Date: Jan 2006
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"Superpilot" The airline dictates what they consider is a qualified pilot. That might be 500, 1000,1500 or 2000 hours on MJRT, a TR rarely qualifies you for any job - the TR is just your basic skill.
Requirements for job might be 500 hours on type or similar, that means if you have a TR and 500 hours on a PA 28, you are not qualified to get the job, that's why they call it training.
Before airlines paid you for the training, now these airlines are going down the drain, they do not have enough money it seems to do this, or they have found out they might get the pilots to pay for their own training, if this means you can with low hours make a direct entry as an FO, avoiding spending 3 - 5 years instructing and getting hours by all other means, this might not be a bad alternative.
Face it, if you pay part of your training directly with the airline you will get a job with after, you are all setup, within a certain time you will have the minimum experience required to get jobs with most airlines. Alternative you run around instructing few years, in C152, PA28 - or whatever, you get 1000 hours SEP, most of it trough instructing- it is a great experience, but you will still start with the airline, but maybe few years later. I doubt instructing brings in that much money either.
So make those calculations versus each other, only difference you might be 3 - 4 years ahead of the one instructing C152's, because you already inside with the company, and they do expect you make captaincy sooner or later. Of course this is regarding companies where line training is associated with a job.
Of course line training alone, without a job is risky, still you will be ahead in the queue, even if it will cost you your families house!
Requirements for job might be 500 hours on type or similar, that means if you have a TR and 500 hours on a PA 28, you are not qualified to get the job, that's why they call it training.
Before airlines paid you for the training, now these airlines are going down the drain, they do not have enough money it seems to do this, or they have found out they might get the pilots to pay for their own training, if this means you can with low hours make a direct entry as an FO, avoiding spending 3 - 5 years instructing and getting hours by all other means, this might not be a bad alternative.
Face it, if you pay part of your training directly with the airline you will get a job with after, you are all setup, within a certain time you will have the minimum experience required to get jobs with most airlines. Alternative you run around instructing few years, in C152, PA28 - or whatever, you get 1000 hours SEP, most of it trough instructing- it is a great experience, but you will still start with the airline, but maybe few years later. I doubt instructing brings in that much money either.
So make those calculations versus each other, only difference you might be 3 - 4 years ahead of the one instructing C152's, because you already inside with the company, and they do expect you make captaincy sooner or later. Of course this is regarding companies where line training is associated with a job.
Of course line training alone, without a job is risky, still you will be ahead in the queue, even if it will cost you your families house!
Join Date: Feb 2005
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On the flipside the guys who are crazy enough to do the easyjet scheme upon being ditched at the end of their placement time will inevitably be in so much debt that they wont be able to afford to do any more flying. Which takes them out of the competition pool. Silver lining to every cloud and all that. It will have to stop at some point, its like Islamic terrorism, unpleasant and abhorrent but will burn itself out eventually.
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Firstly I don't believe they think that they always will be kept on with this airline that they do the line training with, that is just an added bonus.
However you get the analogy, if they don't do, then someone else will.
Regardless of the moral dilemma, you will still be 500 hours closer to the RHS, then a pilot who does not even have a TR, or only has SEP.
So obviously, in these bad times, you have increased your chances to get a job.
If they do not have the money, well tough luck on them, if they lend up until their ears - if they are that dumb, they should not even be in the cockpit, due to their personal emotional condition, intelligence and the stress such huge amount of debt would put on a normal human being, if he is unable to handle it.
There also lies the nature of the beast, these "people" will if the do not get a job afterwards, and if they have spent more than they can afford, they will suffer the consquence of this. You can't blame the idea, you must blame the idiots who can't afford to do this, but still do it!
Eventually the worst ones will never recover, and this will mean one less to compete with, unfortunately that is called capitalism, for someone to win, someone has to loose!
I have said before, the ones who cry of all the debts they have put themselves in to get into this business, I do not have on inch of sympathy for, I do not feel sorry for them, I would rather say good riddance! If you do not have the capability to make the research, and progress into training with a plan of how you will finance your training in an affordable way, well you have then played roulette with your life, with maybe your families life, you get what you deserve!
Lack of planning is probably the biggest mistake before training starts, sometimes it might taking one or two steps backwards, to be able to take the step forward. However many get blinded by cheap sales pitches, and flashy video shows and big shiny jet cockpit!
Fact is, that will most no likely be you until another 5 to 10 years have passed, do you have the stomach to battle it out until you get where you want?
For every newbie pilot with huge amounts of debts, embarks on the line training, finsihes without a job. If he does not get a job within certain amount of time, his TR will expire, he will still have the hours on line though. But if he can not manage to handle his debts, well he will be another casuality to debts, and more then likely will not be current on type after some time.
This is his risk, and if he looses, well good riddance, his aviation adventure might be over for a very long time.
You must expect every person to have some reasonable intelligence, that they do have responsability for their own life, some will win, many will loose!
Regardless not a tear is shed from me, when students complain over their huge amounts of debts after training, and there is no work, you should have known the before hand, and made contigencies for that situation. Same goes for Line training and TR, get over it.
Would I pay if I had a firm job offer with, you bet I would! But without, no way. Still personally I have other plans and directions I want to explore.
If you have the cash, sure why not, if it makes you happy. None here will sacrifice themselves for someone else to get a job, it will always be Number One first, you get a job - means I dont get a job, does not need to be fair, its just the luck of the draw for some + hard work. Right place at the right time.
Word of advice though, the pain of the debts afterwards, will far outweigh the pleasure of those 500 hours line training. So if you do go that way, without having enough money available, enjoy it while you can, because afterwards your life will be hell, and you do not deserve any sympathy, you laid your bed yourself!
However you get the analogy, if they don't do, then someone else will.
Regardless of the moral dilemma, you will still be 500 hours closer to the RHS, then a pilot who does not even have a TR, or only has SEP.
So obviously, in these bad times, you have increased your chances to get a job.
If they do not have the money, well tough luck on them, if they lend up until their ears - if they are that dumb, they should not even be in the cockpit, due to their personal emotional condition, intelligence and the stress such huge amount of debt would put on a normal human being, if he is unable to handle it.
There also lies the nature of the beast, these "people" will if the do not get a job afterwards, and if they have spent more than they can afford, they will suffer the consquence of this. You can't blame the idea, you must blame the idiots who can't afford to do this, but still do it!
Eventually the worst ones will never recover, and this will mean one less to compete with, unfortunately that is called capitalism, for someone to win, someone has to loose!
I have said before, the ones who cry of all the debts they have put themselves in to get into this business, I do not have on inch of sympathy for, I do not feel sorry for them, I would rather say good riddance! If you do not have the capability to make the research, and progress into training with a plan of how you will finance your training in an affordable way, well you have then played roulette with your life, with maybe your families life, you get what you deserve!
Lack of planning is probably the biggest mistake before training starts, sometimes it might taking one or two steps backwards, to be able to take the step forward. However many get blinded by cheap sales pitches, and flashy video shows and big shiny jet cockpit!
Fact is, that will most no likely be you until another 5 to 10 years have passed, do you have the stomach to battle it out until you get where you want?
For every newbie pilot with huge amounts of debts, embarks on the line training, finsihes without a job. If he does not get a job within certain amount of time, his TR will expire, he will still have the hours on line though. But if he can not manage to handle his debts, well he will be another casuality to debts, and more then likely will not be current on type after some time.
This is his risk, and if he looses, well good riddance, his aviation adventure might be over for a very long time.
You must expect every person to have some reasonable intelligence, that they do have responsability for their own life, some will win, many will loose!
Regardless not a tear is shed from me, when students complain over their huge amounts of debts after training, and there is no work, you should have known the before hand, and made contigencies for that situation. Same goes for Line training and TR, get over it.
Would I pay if I had a firm job offer with, you bet I would! But without, no way. Still personally I have other plans and directions I want to explore.
If you have the cash, sure why not, if it makes you happy. None here will sacrifice themselves for someone else to get a job, it will always be Number One first, you get a job - means I dont get a job, does not need to be fair, its just the luck of the draw for some + hard work. Right place at the right time.
Word of advice though, the pain of the debts afterwards, will far outweigh the pleasure of those 500 hours line training. So if you do go that way, without having enough money available, enjoy it while you can, because afterwards your life will be hell, and you do not deserve any sympathy, you laid your bed yourself!
Join Date: Nov 2000
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well we may agree with the principle or the process but it is a fact and things aren't about to change. We have just taken on 18 guys that paid to fly as part of an integrated TR course. Now you could dress it up and say the TR element was XX and the Flying is YY or the whole lot is XXYY, of interest is the original TR course price included 100hrs on type, or hours to a line check. These guys have just started on type and been given a 12 month paid contract from day one..No other guys were even interviewed and they all came through same process.
It's a sign of the times, BTW average age 20yrs old, average hrs less than 200TT.
When these guys finish in 2011 they will be back on the market and another lot come in.
It's a sign of the times, BTW average age 20yrs old, average hrs less than 200TT.
When these guys finish in 2011 they will be back on the market and another lot come in.
Join Date: Feb 2010
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I got an email asking me if I am interested by an A320 program.
I am sure I have to pay.
I don't think this is legal under the UK law. FLying alone is one thing, flying with 150 souls on board in a commercial operation and Paying a "school", it's in my point of view totally illegal.
by EU law, if I am not paid, I have the right to leave the work place anytime I want . I wonder what passagengers would think if I say I want go back home when we are halfway of our flight.
"Captain, I order you to return back to Gatwick now, I am tired!"
I am not going to give any of my money to a bunch of idiots who will ask me to wake up at 3 am for their first 0530 am flight...
I am sure I have to pay.
I don't think this is legal under the UK law. FLying alone is one thing, flying with 150 souls on board in a commercial operation and Paying a "school", it's in my point of view totally illegal.
by EU law, if I am not paid, I have the right to leave the work place anytime I want . I wonder what passagengers would think if I say I want go back home when we are halfway of our flight.
"Captain, I order you to return back to Gatwick now, I am tired!"
I am not going to give any of my money to a bunch of idiots who will ask me to wake up at 3 am for their first 0530 am flight...
Join Date: May 2007
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A mate of mine who got his fingers burnt with P2F, said BALPA were interested in Cadet exploitation and were investigating - he contacted them. Know nothing more than that, however, what I would say, is that seeing as these schemes exist and have done for a couple of years or so now - I would think (point raised many times before) that there is a legal loophole that allows airlines to get away with it - maybe Balpa are well aware of this and feel they can only pressurize an airline to do the right thing but not force them. That said there is nothing stopping someone naming and shaming such airlines and schemes in the press - in fact I can imagine a nice dispatches programme about it all.
