easy kicked me out !!!
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Nah, your a troll, best not to feed you
I am now fully employed and make megabucks...thank you P2F, you saved my life.It was so easy.
you have to be an idiot not to spend 30K in this training.You just have to pay, fly, and they will HIRE you!
I got experience and now airlines call me,THEY CALL ME!!!I have 500h,and they WANT ME! I have offers to fly the 330 and the 340!
(of course I stay on my minibus, they say there is a pilot shortage and my position is guaranteed!)
india, africa, asia, they all call me...this is fantastic, wonderful!
even my parents can not believe it, it's like wining 20millions at the EU lottery.
thank you so much, thank you P2F, P2F is the solution...
(now who is the troll?if it was easy like that, I would say to everyone to do the same!)
Obvious troll because, EZY have never done a P2F scheme where you get 500 hours line training. The maximum was 150, now with the Oxford lads it's 75. If you have 500 hours in EZY you would have been on the flexi crew contract, therefore getting paid. EZY just took back all of last years flexicrew guys.
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flexiscrew contract???, yeah in a "certain way"!
wrong. I have never been paid...the first 500h you fly for free, then you are paid!
what do you think? they have thousand of pilots ready to pay to fly, do you think they pay us like they say.
they told me they don't have to give me hours(it was in my contract, "no guaranteed hours", but they were willing to let me fly for free.If I wanted to fly I had to accept it, or wait forever!
anyway, it's illegal, and I can not credit my hours now...of course, CTC or Oxford won't tell you it.
Now the only "job" I find is P2F...why should I pay again?
wrong. I have never been paid...the first 500h you fly for free, then you are paid!
what do you think? they have thousand of pilots ready to pay to fly, do you think they pay us like they say.
they told me they don't have to give me hours(it was in my contract, "no guaranteed hours", but they were willing to let me fly for free.If I wanted to fly I had to accept it, or wait forever!
anyway, it's illegal, and I can not credit my hours now...of course, CTC or Oxford won't tell you it.
Now the only "job" I find is P2F...why should I pay again?
Where is the Ban master WWW when ya need him?Supercharged PPRuNer
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Were you the Tom Cruise lookalike I saw the other day driving into LGW's staff car park in a an MX-5, registration P 2 FLY? (I kid you not).
I think we should be told.
I think we should be told.
fly antonov
Eh?
You sure about that little nugget? So what are line training captains for then?
You can' t get line training under a trainee status (must be non revenue) and the self-employed status is not an obvious one to cover.
You sure about that little nugget? So what are line training captains for then?
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Did you ever hear of the British press and the power of the internet?
Notwithstanding, this whole 'pay to fly' con-game is about to come crashing down. There are various threads on this website with regard
to a pilot flying a commercial airliner and not being legally responsible for his or her actions - by virtue of NOT being employed by the respective airline. In order to be employed, you have to be paid!
Until such time as it stops, there will always be some 'more money than sense' wannabe, willing to be taken advantage of.....
Notwithstanding, this whole 'pay to fly' con-game is about to come crashing down. There are various threads on this website with regard
to a pilot flying a commercial airliner and not being legally responsible for his or her actions - by virtue of NOT being employed by the respective airline. In order to be employed, you have to be paid!
Until such time as it stops, there will always be some 'more money than sense' wannabe, willing to be taken advantage of.....
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I don't know why some of you guys are trying to be so funny, but going to an Oxford Aviation Training to get your A-Z flying done, paying tons for it while wearing those laughable Air Force Top Gun Elite Universe Space Command Admiral clothes is just as stupid as walking up to an airliner offering to pay for your own type rating.
Aviation these days is so ****** up, mainly because of many people like you guys always offering to fly for lower wages. In fact, there are so many aviation toads these days that would even fly for free because they love it so much.
Well, in my opinion, having flown commercially and now being in the executive aviation, flying for one of the 50 richest people on the planet, airline flying blows, the real future is in executive aviation for the big fish. Nothing better than flying 20 hours a month, earning double of what airliners make and most importantly, not having had to do some retarded OAT or Cadet Program.
Aviation these days is so ****** up, mainly because of many people like you guys always offering to fly for lower wages. In fact, there are so many aviation toads these days that would even fly for free because they love it so much.
Well, in my opinion, having flown commercially and now being in the executive aviation, flying for one of the 50 richest people on the planet, airline flying blows, the real future is in executive aviation for the big fish. Nothing better than flying 20 hours a month, earning double of what airliners make and most importantly, not having had to do some retarded OAT or Cadet Program.
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Well the thing about flying one of the 50 richest people on the planet is ... there are only 50 of them. This rather limits the number of such jobs.
So congratulations, you have done well - but not everyone is so lucky so a little humility would go a long way.
So congratulations, you have done well - but not everyone is so lucky so a little humility would go a long way.
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Thanks for your input Jambone, but when you grow up you may realise that the situation is not quite as clear cut as it is in your head. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I really don't think a 15 year old with no practical life experience has any credibility commenting on my personal career decisions.
For your information I am a former Royal Air Force frontline pilot. I now work for a very well known low cost airline. It wouldn't be my first choice to pay for a type rating or to be a contractor rather than an employee, but I had to take the employment market as I found it and make the 'grown-up' decision that I considered to be in my best long term interests.
I am now a First Officer, no longer in training. This month I will fly 100 hours minus a few minutes and take home about 7000 Euros. This is a better than average month, but even over the whole year (taking into account all the variables) I will certainly take home about double the salary of an RAF Flight Lieutenant. I will break even on my training in my first year.
My working environment is just fine, thank you very much, I am flying lots of hours (that's a good thing) on an exceptionally good aircraft, have a very good roster pattern, earn good money and have good potential for comand in the future. To summarize that for you, things are good. I do not particularly like the state of the airline industry but you need to realise that life is not as black and white as you think it is when, as a little kid, you start mouthing off at adults. Don't shed any tears for me, and don't call me an idiot. Now go and tidy your room.
For your information I am a former Royal Air Force frontline pilot. I now work for a very well known low cost airline. It wouldn't be my first choice to pay for a type rating or to be a contractor rather than an employee, but I had to take the employment market as I found it and make the 'grown-up' decision that I considered to be in my best long term interests.
I am now a First Officer, no longer in training. This month I will fly 100 hours minus a few minutes and take home about 7000 Euros. This is a better than average month, but even over the whole year (taking into account all the variables) I will certainly take home about double the salary of an RAF Flight Lieutenant. I will break even on my training in my first year.
My working environment is just fine, thank you very much, I am flying lots of hours (that's a good thing) on an exceptionally good aircraft, have a very good roster pattern, earn good money and have good potential for comand in the future. To summarize that for you, things are good. I do not particularly like the state of the airline industry but you need to realise that life is not as black and white as you think it is when, as a little kid, you start mouthing off at adults. Don't shed any tears for me, and don't call me an idiot. Now go and tidy your room.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 17th Feb 2010 at 14:16.
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7000 euro as take home, good hours as first officer for Ryanair, Easy, Wizz?
I know that Ryanair skippers barely make 7000 euro after tax working 90 hours a month.
Not a chance.
Also, a former RAF jet pilot paying for SSTR?
That must be as low as we can get!
I know that Ryanair skippers barely make 7000 euro after tax working 90 hours a month.
Not a chance.
Also, a former RAF jet pilot paying for SSTR?
That must be as low as we can get!
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J and FA, I'm afraid everything I have said is absolutely true. J, it's very easy to take the moral high ground from the comfort of your bedroom in your mum and dad's house. FA, as far as I can recall from your other posts, you are not yet qualified, right? Well, until you actually have to confront the jobs market directly you are somewhat insulated from it's realities, comforted by optimism and noble thoughts of boycotts and suchlike.
I however was in a position where I had to play the cards I had been dealt. Degrade the industry? Not really. I didn't cause the current world recession - I just have to deal with the consequences and take the industry as I found it. The jobs market isn't screwed becaused I paid for a type rating - more the other way round. It is simply supply and demand; the ugly face of free market economy. My type rating had a dead cert job with a successful and stable airline at the other end of it and to be fair people have been paying for type ratings for decades, albeit through bonding agreements.
I left the RAF with a four figure number of flying hours. In the 9 months from civil licence issue to starting my type rating I had one serious interview (with the airline I know work for), an interview with a charitable flying organization which would have required me to raise my own salary by personally approaching people for donations and a tentative offer of a couple of months unpaid bush flying in Africa - great but not a career move. In the meantime I worked in a coffee shop for £5.80 per hour aware that skill fade was setting in, my experience was getting more distant and newer more freshly qualified people were entering the jobs market all the time. So I considered the risk, made an investment in my own future and accepted the airline job offer which would simply have been offered to someone else if I had declined it. I am an adult with a mortgage to pay, a relationship to support and a life to be getting on with. It's all very well holding the moral high ground as your house gets repossessed and you sit in the dole queue becoming increasingly unemployable.
For me things are working out well and the figure I gave is correct (although as I said above the average that I expect). This 'reverse-bonding' (whereby I pay up front for the rating but my costs are returned through a good salary) was the only reasonable choice for me in the cuurent market. I wouldn't touch a private, speculative type rating with a sh1tty stick and as for pay-to-line-train, well, you'd have to be so crazy that you shouldn't hold a medical.
Now if I, as an ex-RAF pilot, had this much trouble in the current jobs market, how do you thing 200hr ab-initios are getting on? Maybe some of you wannabes should consider your own intentions before slinging mud.
ps FA, Captains in my airline do very well indeed, and I never said jets. i flew multi-crew, twin-turbine, heavy helicopters.
I however was in a position where I had to play the cards I had been dealt. Degrade the industry? Not really. I didn't cause the current world recession - I just have to deal with the consequences and take the industry as I found it. The jobs market isn't screwed becaused I paid for a type rating - more the other way round. It is simply supply and demand; the ugly face of free market economy. My type rating had a dead cert job with a successful and stable airline at the other end of it and to be fair people have been paying for type ratings for decades, albeit through bonding agreements.
I left the RAF with a four figure number of flying hours. In the 9 months from civil licence issue to starting my type rating I had one serious interview (with the airline I know work for), an interview with a charitable flying organization which would have required me to raise my own salary by personally approaching people for donations and a tentative offer of a couple of months unpaid bush flying in Africa - great but not a career move. In the meantime I worked in a coffee shop for £5.80 per hour aware that skill fade was setting in, my experience was getting more distant and newer more freshly qualified people were entering the jobs market all the time. So I considered the risk, made an investment in my own future and accepted the airline job offer which would simply have been offered to someone else if I had declined it. I am an adult with a mortgage to pay, a relationship to support and a life to be getting on with. It's all very well holding the moral high ground as your house gets repossessed and you sit in the dole queue becoming increasingly unemployable.
For me things are working out well and the figure I gave is correct (although as I said above the average that I expect). This 'reverse-bonding' (whereby I pay up front for the rating but my costs are returned through a good salary) was the only reasonable choice for me in the cuurent market. I wouldn't touch a private, speculative type rating with a sh1tty stick and as for pay-to-line-train, well, you'd have to be so crazy that you shouldn't hold a medical.
Now if I, as an ex-RAF pilot, had this much trouble in the current jobs market, how do you thing 200hr ab-initios are getting on? Maybe some of you wannabes should consider your own intentions before slinging mud.
ps FA, Captains in my airline do very well indeed, and I never said jets. i flew multi-crew, twin-turbine, heavy helicopters.
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Thank you for your well-explained post.
I' m basing my "not a chance" post on what I was told by a friend of mine who works for Ryanair combined with PPJN.
PPJN clearly shows the figures, also for Easyjet.
I don' t know what many people' s point is about me being a PPL. I' m 3 months away from IR-ME-CPL if I feel that it is the moment to jump in. I don' t think that my knowledge about the industry would change much after that experience, I know what it' s like to send out dozens of CV' s and to receive no answers.
I know how bad the industry is and I do know that the SSTR is an unfortunate option for many.
What I and many others are trying to say, is that we don' t like people who come out here and tell everyone that they paid for their TR and act like it was the best decision of their life.
We know that it was your glimpse of sunshine in the endless hurricane but clueless wannabe' s may base their disastrous decisions to enter expensive forms of flight training on the assumption that Ryanair or Easyjet will give them a job at the end of their training.
Also, other airlines may start thinking that if pilots can act like it was the best decision of their lives, they can also start charging for TR.
I mean, if you had to buy a TR out of desperation, at least act with humility, don' t come out here and brag about it.
People who have no mortgages and had saved up prior to entering flight training can afford to wait. They can afford to find a job over a period of 1, 2, 3 and like my instructor did, 7 years. If everyone can afford to wait, then it is only a matter of time for SSTR and unacceptable starting conditions to disappear.
Consider that now is the only shot we get at this. Flight schools, especially the expensive ones, are emptying out. Wannabe' s are starting to receive the messages. There will always be OAA and CTC students ready to open their checkbooks out of desperation for a job.
But now they will be alot less than usual, because they hear the bad news and also because banks are very suspicious.
I see that I can talk to you respectfully because you do reject the P2F schemes which shows that you do have a grain of common sense.
I' m basing my "not a chance" post on what I was told by a friend of mine who works for Ryanair combined with PPJN.
PPJN clearly shows the figures, also for Easyjet.
I don' t know what many people' s point is about me being a PPL. I' m 3 months away from IR-ME-CPL if I feel that it is the moment to jump in. I don' t think that my knowledge about the industry would change much after that experience, I know what it' s like to send out dozens of CV' s and to receive no answers.
I know how bad the industry is and I do know that the SSTR is an unfortunate option for many.
What I and many others are trying to say, is that we don' t like people who come out here and tell everyone that they paid for their TR and act like it was the best decision of their life.
We know that it was your glimpse of sunshine in the endless hurricane but clueless wannabe' s may base their disastrous decisions to enter expensive forms of flight training on the assumption that Ryanair or Easyjet will give them a job at the end of their training.
Also, other airlines may start thinking that if pilots can act like it was the best decision of their lives, they can also start charging for TR.
I mean, if you had to buy a TR out of desperation, at least act with humility, don' t come out here and brag about it.
People who have no mortgages and had saved up prior to entering flight training can afford to wait. They can afford to find a job over a period of 1, 2, 3 and like my instructor did, 7 years. If everyone can afford to wait, then it is only a matter of time for SSTR and unacceptable starting conditions to disappear.
Consider that now is the only shot we get at this. Flight schools, especially the expensive ones, are emptying out. Wannabe' s are starting to receive the messages. There will always be OAA and CTC students ready to open their checkbooks out of desperation for a job.
But now they will be alot less than usual, because they hear the bad news and also because banks are very suspicious.
I see that I can talk to you respectfully because you do reject the P2F schemes which shows that you do have a grain of common sense.
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Thank you FA. I always prefer to have a polite, rational conversation with someone rather than have to deal with the people who just shout insults at each other.
I am certainly not bragging. I was simply reacting to Jambone calling me an idiot. I am also not encouraging wannabes to sign up by suggesting that they will get a job at the end of training. Quite the opposite. My selection was extremely competitive, with a lot of high calibre applicants all able to meet the cost of training. I actually hope wannabes would be discouraged, or at least have a 'reality-check', when they hear that even ex-RAF pilots with over 1000 hrs are finding it very difficult to find work at the moment. So no, I am not bragging, but I'm not going to say 'everything is terrible' just so you guys can feel better about yourselves - my job is great and I'm very happy. I am not ashamed of my decision so I feel no need to act with humility.
This month I am rostered to fly the legal maximum, 100 hours. PPJN's figures aren't always right, and neither is what other people tell you. My current pay rate is 55 Euro/hour. 73 of those hours are being flown from airports other than my official base, which attracts an extra 20E/hr. Work it out yourself. I am also 200hrs away from a pay rise.
I spent many years saving in advance, which is why I have no debt from my CPL/IR training. I have a house that I bought 8 years ago - I am in my thirties so I have no reason to be ashamed of having a mortgage to pay. The fact that I am in my thirties also means that I am not prepared to wait around making lattes and cappucinos for three years in order to make a one man protest about the realities of the aviation industry - doing so may well have meant that I would never fly professionally again.
I made the correct decision for me. The only person that would have sufferred by me refusing the deal would be me. The only people to benefit would be other job applicants who would then have one less competitor. The industry wouldn't give a toss if I withdrew myself from the field, because the Ryanairs of this world are running the most fittest business model for the current economy. Paid type ratings are a harsh reality which are here to stay until the economy changes significantly. All the major airlines have been doing it in one form or another for years already.
Individual boycotts don't work. Even the unions such as BALPA can't fight this. The only thing that will change it is a pilot shortage and that cannot possibly happen until the economy recovers on a massive scale. This is what you have to realise. Zero hour wannabes embarking on training in the last year have been throwing their money away and stand almost no chance of employment paid or otherwise. Tough times.
I am certainly not bragging. I was simply reacting to Jambone calling me an idiot. I am also not encouraging wannabes to sign up by suggesting that they will get a job at the end of training. Quite the opposite. My selection was extremely competitive, with a lot of high calibre applicants all able to meet the cost of training. I actually hope wannabes would be discouraged, or at least have a 'reality-check', when they hear that even ex-RAF pilots with over 1000 hrs are finding it very difficult to find work at the moment. So no, I am not bragging, but I'm not going to say 'everything is terrible' just so you guys can feel better about yourselves - my job is great and I'm very happy. I am not ashamed of my decision so I feel no need to act with humility.
This month I am rostered to fly the legal maximum, 100 hours. PPJN's figures aren't always right, and neither is what other people tell you. My current pay rate is 55 Euro/hour. 73 of those hours are being flown from airports other than my official base, which attracts an extra 20E/hr. Work it out yourself. I am also 200hrs away from a pay rise.
I spent many years saving in advance, which is why I have no debt from my CPL/IR training. I have a house that I bought 8 years ago - I am in my thirties so I have no reason to be ashamed of having a mortgage to pay. The fact that I am in my thirties also means that I am not prepared to wait around making lattes and cappucinos for three years in order to make a one man protest about the realities of the aviation industry - doing so may well have meant that I would never fly professionally again.
I made the correct decision for me. The only person that would have sufferred by me refusing the deal would be me. The only people to benefit would be other job applicants who would then have one less competitor. The industry wouldn't give a toss if I withdrew myself from the field, because the Ryanairs of this world are running the most fittest business model for the current economy. Paid type ratings are a harsh reality which are here to stay until the economy changes significantly. All the major airlines have been doing it in one form or another for years already.
Individual boycotts don't work. Even the unions such as BALPA can't fight this. The only thing that will change it is a pilot shortage and that cannot possibly happen until the economy recovers on a massive scale. This is what you have to realise. Zero hour wannabes embarking on training in the last year have been throwing their money away and stand almost no chance of employment paid or otherwise. Tough times.
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Apology accepted with thanks Jambone.
I know you weren't specifically referring to me but you did say:
I paid for my TR, so I'm sure you understand my reaction. As I said, I hope my case will be a reality check to wannabes. I consider myself very lucky, but my luck was also built on over 1000 hours of military flying experience and £30k for a rating. Anyone with 200 hours or less who feels lucky at the moment is deluded.
I applied for EVERYTHING going. I couldn't even get a gig as the tug pilot at a nearby gliding club because they had about 30 people on the waiting list. Those guys work seven days a week through the summer, live in a tent and don't get paid. This is the reality of trying to be a professional pilot at the moment. Still feel lucky?
I know you weren't specifically referring to me but you did say:
It drives me crazy that there are so many IDIOTS out there who toss £30,000 at a TR so they can fly in an awful environment, for crap pay..AND ruin the industry. 
idiots.
idiots.
I applied for EVERYTHING going. I couldn't even get a gig as the tug pilot at a nearby gliding club because they had about 30 people on the waiting list. Those guys work seven days a week through the summer, live in a tent and don't get paid. This is the reality of trying to be a professional pilot at the moment. Still feel lucky?