Anyone on here actually recruit for airlines
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Anyone on here actually recruit for airlines
I'm after some advise, maybe some of the more experienced pilots can help as I'm trying to get as many opinions as possible
Like a large majority of people out there I'm at the crossroads of making a decision. I've gained my Frozen ATPL and I'm keeping my IR current. I'm thinking about the future for when the airlines start to recruit again and how to make myself stand out from other pilots.
I came out of my training with minimal hours and I've got roughly 230 in total. I know airlines like more hours but you can't get a job without experience and you can't get experience without a job!
I am still hour building on a C152, while many people will think this is pointless I'm trying to be disciplined by flying procedures, VOR tracking, NDB's, IR holds around beacons etc, but there's really only so much i can do before i get bored!
So is it really worth building 250 hours on C152/PA28 etc? Would an airline still look at your qualifications even if you went and found another job in this recession?
Like a large majority of people out there I'm at the crossroads of making a decision. I've gained my Frozen ATPL and I'm keeping my IR current. I'm thinking about the future for when the airlines start to recruit again and how to make myself stand out from other pilots.
I came out of my training with minimal hours and I've got roughly 230 in total. I know airlines like more hours but you can't get a job without experience and you can't get experience without a job!
I am still hour building on a C152, while many people will think this is pointless I'm trying to be disciplined by flying procedures, VOR tracking, NDB's, IR holds around beacons etc, but there's really only so much i can do before i get bored!
So is it really worth building 250 hours on C152/PA28 etc? Would an airline still look at your qualifications even if you went and found another job in this recession?
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I forgot to mention that, i have been looking at working on the ground side for an airline/cargo
I'm based about 15 minutes from East midlands and I've been up there and handed in letters/CV's but nothing's appeared yet, I've also been ringing around but i guess it's a case of keep knocking at the doors
I'm based about 15 minutes from East midlands and I've been up there and handed in letters/CV's but nothing's appeared yet, I've also been ringing around but i guess it's a case of keep knocking at the doors
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All around the UK, Europe, North America and much of the rest of the world, airline management teams are gathering in their boardrooms and deciding what to do, to survive the current global recession and enable they survive as business entities. What is already clear and will become increasingly clear over the coming months is that they are treating every last penny and cent as if it were their last. They are deferring and cancelling aircraft deliveries. They are selling assets where there is a market, where there isn't, they are parking up aircraft. They are laying off staff in their thousands and they are cutting salaries for those that remain.
For pilots in the Uk alone, redundancies are already in the hundreds, and within a few months are likely to be in the thousands. These are not 250 hour frozen ATPL wannabes, but experienced 737,747,757,767,777, A320, A310, A330, A340, regional jet and turboprop pilots with thousands of hours of on type experience under their belts. Add to this the lucky few who have aquired a similiar job in the last couple of years and you have another group of type rated low experience pilots also looking for the same work.
The overseas bolt holes that might have absorbed some of this overflow, are themselves reeling from the recession and either have, or are likely to, also cancel and defer aircraft deliveries. Even where jobs can be found, it is likely to be on a "needs must" basis with many of those affected seeking to return to their homeland at the earliest opportunity.
Add to all of this the fact that the main airliner manufacturers are having major production and delivery problems with their new technology replacement airframes and previous delivery dates are now slipping by over 5 years in some cases. Add on top, the increase in statutory retirement ages for pilots, which in many major western economies (including ours) has resulted in an increase in the working life of a pilot by anything up to 10 years. Look at the airlines who have exploited a niche that allows them to sell the First officers job to vanity publishing type wannabes, who pay to sit there for a hundred hours, in the hope this will provide them with a better future, sitting in that same seat (that somebody else will probably be paying to occupy.)
So with all of this in mind, and please bear in mind I am not describing some sort of apocalyptic future, this is what is happening and accelerating now! With a large redundant pool of experienced type rated airline pilots, why would any airline even be giving a second thought to anybody with a few hours on C152's or PA28's etc? Recruiters are not going to care, because the secretary who screens the CV's (but is now typing redundancy letters,) is never going to let these CV's get that far.
The only positive advice I can offer, is either take a very hard and long term view of this industry, with a view to working your way slowly and methodicaly through whatever entry level jobs may materialize together with all the competition you will inevitably face. You could raise the money to buy one of the type rating/line training "jobs" that are becoming increasingly popular and keep your fingers crossed!
Keep earning money wherever you can, keep flying and improving your skills. There isn't much else out here, and if you believe you are bored now, the future is likely to prove a major dissappointment! Look at the market with wide open eyes and a plan a future for yourself that takes into account the realities of that market.
For pilots in the Uk alone, redundancies are already in the hundreds, and within a few months are likely to be in the thousands. These are not 250 hour frozen ATPL wannabes, but experienced 737,747,757,767,777, A320, A310, A330, A340, regional jet and turboprop pilots with thousands of hours of on type experience under their belts. Add to this the lucky few who have aquired a similiar job in the last couple of years and you have another group of type rated low experience pilots also looking for the same work.
The overseas bolt holes that might have absorbed some of this overflow, are themselves reeling from the recession and either have, or are likely to, also cancel and defer aircraft deliveries. Even where jobs can be found, it is likely to be on a "needs must" basis with many of those affected seeking to return to their homeland at the earliest opportunity.
Add to all of this the fact that the main airliner manufacturers are having major production and delivery problems with their new technology replacement airframes and previous delivery dates are now slipping by over 5 years in some cases. Add on top, the increase in statutory retirement ages for pilots, which in many major western economies (including ours) has resulted in an increase in the working life of a pilot by anything up to 10 years. Look at the airlines who have exploited a niche that allows them to sell the First officers job to vanity publishing type wannabes, who pay to sit there for a hundred hours, in the hope this will provide them with a better future, sitting in that same seat (that somebody else will probably be paying to occupy.)
So with all of this in mind, and please bear in mind I am not describing some sort of apocalyptic future, this is what is happening and accelerating now! With a large redundant pool of experienced type rated airline pilots, why would any airline even be giving a second thought to anybody with a few hours on C152's or PA28's etc? Recruiters are not going to care, because the secretary who screens the CV's (but is now typing redundancy letters,) is never going to let these CV's get that far.
The only positive advice I can offer, is either take a very hard and long term view of this industry, with a view to working your way slowly and methodicaly through whatever entry level jobs may materialize together with all the competition you will inevitably face. You could raise the money to buy one of the type rating/line training "jobs" that are becoming increasingly popular and keep your fingers crossed!
Keep earning money wherever you can, keep flying and improving your skills. There isn't much else out here, and if you believe you are bored now, the future is likely to prove a major dissappointment! Look at the market with wide open eyes and a plan a future for yourself that takes into account the realities of that market.
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For what it's worth I dont think hours building on a C152 will do you any good in the commercial world. Nowdays the airlines are looking for hours on type and the ability to be trained, not hours flapping around in light aircraft. Save your money, keep the IR current and buy a type rating and line hours, ignore the negative comments on these threads and get on with your career. I know funding can be an issue, but this advice is broad brush and won't suit all pockets, sadly. Good luck
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I know a lot of guys and girls who bought type ratings and line training. One friend of mine has a job. Others still searching. It's not going to be of much use if you've not got a job to go to and are not keeping current on type. I'm going to try somewhere like RYR where at least a job could be on the cards if you pass the TR with them.
Regards, CG
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For what it's worth I dont think hours building on a C152 will do you any good in the commercial world.
Where do some of you wannabes get off with your worthless "advice"?
Keep flying and building up experience. It wasn't so long ago that a couple of airlines in the UK had bonded schemes in place where the minimum requirement was 1000TT (most of the pilots hired were Flight Instructors btw).
The turbo-prop operators like to hire guys with some hours because it brings up the overall experience total at the airline and gives them some flexibility when they suddenly find that all their captains have headed off to the jets.
Minimum air-taxi pilot experience is around 400 hours although you would need to get a little multi time from some place.
Do NOT go out and buy a TR and line hours. There are much more experienced pilots out there who are far more employable and will work for low salaries also. It pigeon-holes you onto a certain type and other operators will not offer you a position if they think you will stick your fingers up at them and disappear off to use your shiny jet rating given half a chance.
Many operators (including many airlines) don't have a proper HR departments and the applications are reviewed by the Chief Pilot after being filtered by the office secretary (usually minimum total hours being the criteria
) . Most CP's worked their way up the ladder the old fashioned way so that does have an influence.My advice would be to head down to your local airfield and offer your IR skills and try to find a bit of (usually volunteer) work as a safety pilot.
Besides flying is flying, sometimes you have to remind yourself why you got into this melarkey in the first place?
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ignore the negative comments on these threads and get on with your career.
Thanks guys. Seriously. I was gettin weary with it all after 18 months. Come in, warn, spell it out. I try but I'm tired.
WWW
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MP.. Are you seriously trying to tell me that flapping around the circuit at Shoreham is to be compared with multi crew multi pilot hours!
Why do you think the criteria to unfeeze the ATPL was changed years ago.. Yes.. because guys with 1500 hrs C152 could hold an Airline Transport ticket.. complete nonsense.. Now having said that.. keep current, keep the IR skills and keep in the system, but if its a trade off go for the advanced commercial training if you can afford it.
And Cessna girl.. whats the difference between the CTC scheme, BMI, Easyjet. all pay to train.. jobs are based on performance, not just passing the rating..BUT.. I agree if you can do the rating aligned to an airline there is a better chance at the end as the process is continuous assessment. This is why BMI and Easy only use their own TRIs on the courses and TRE to examine at the end.
There's no right or wrong here, this forum is for debate not missile firing
Why do you think the criteria to unfeeze the ATPL was changed years ago.. Yes.. because guys with 1500 hrs C152 could hold an Airline Transport ticket.. complete nonsense.. Now having said that.. keep current, keep the IR skills and keep in the system, but if its a trade off go for the advanced commercial training if you can afford it.
And Cessna girl.. whats the difference between the CTC scheme, BMI, Easyjet. all pay to train.. jobs are based on performance, not just passing the rating..BUT.. I agree if you can do the rating aligned to an airline there is a better chance at the end as the process is continuous assessment. This is why BMI and Easy only use their own TRIs on the courses and TRE to examine at the end.
There's no right or wrong here, this forum is for debate not missile firing
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Why do you think the criteria to unfeeze the ATPL was changed years ago.. Yes.. because guys with 1500 hrs C152 could hold an Airline Transport ticket
I've already outlined why hours on a C152 is worth something and why buying a TR is not a good idea.
There's no right or wrong here
neil_1821
Keep plugging away as you are. Do some flying, stay involved with the industry and keep networking. All it takes is for someone to turn around and say " I know someone who is looking for a pilot" and thats you on the first step.
Also if you havent wasted all your money on a TR then you will be in a position later on to cover an upfront bond or, worse case, pay for a TR which is directly linked to a job such as Ryanair.
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Introduction of JAR made the recommendations that were then adopted! rest my case.
Cost of maintaining a Type Rating.. NIL if you are employed...
The old self improver route.. Agree it did produce some good pilots, unfortunately the industry didn,t always recognise this, hence the success of OAA and the like. I assume you are making a comparison between integrated courses and modular, as the type rating process was never part of a self improver route.
I would caution the new guys to move with the times and not get bogged down with "how it used to be" because for sure.. it isn't going back that way. If we are not careful in the UK we will lag hopelessly behind Europe and be licking our wounds as part of the " If only" brigade.
There are plenty of airline consultants out there that will give you advice for free.. nearly all fly with legacy carriers.. use them rather than this bun fighting forum.
Cost of maintaining a Type Rating.. NIL if you are employed...
The old self improver route.. Agree it did produce some good pilots, unfortunately the industry didn,t always recognise this, hence the success of OAA and the like. I assume you are making a comparison between integrated courses and modular, as the type rating process was never part of a self improver route.
I would caution the new guys to move with the times and not get bogged down with "how it used to be" because for sure.. it isn't going back that way. If we are not careful in the UK we will lag hopelessly behind Europe and be licking our wounds as part of the " If only" brigade.
There are plenty of airline consultants out there that will give you advice for free.. nearly all fly with legacy carriers.. use them rather than this bun fighting forum.
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You have no idea what you're talking about. Your points are nonsense. You blatantly have no idea what JAR is about, what the self improver route was, or what is going on in the aviation industry ether in the UK or in Europe.
I rest my case.
Cost of maintaining a Type Rating.. NIL if you are employed...
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jm123,
With people like you telling others how to go about getting a job, wannabes will have to spend at least 150-200k for their training in very near future and still be lucky to find a job.
Whats is the point of spending all that money? So you can be a proud jet pilot (if you can find a job!), earning 2000 euro a month, not being able to get a decent apartment, eating instant noodles and paying off your loans for next 20-30 years! What a great idea.
Please tell me what would happen if there was NOBODY willing to pay (to jump the queue, take a short cut) for TR + hours.
The operators would SIMPLY have to pay for it or keep their toys on ground.
With people like you telling others how to go about getting a job, wannabes will have to spend at least 150-200k for their training in very near future and still be lucky to find a job.
Whats is the point of spending all that money? So you can be a proud jet pilot (if you can find a job!), earning 2000 euro a month, not being able to get a decent apartment, eating instant noodles and paying off your loans for next 20-30 years! What a great idea.
Please tell me what would happen if there was NOBODY willing to pay (to jump the queue, take a short cut) for TR + hours.
The operators would SIMPLY have to pay for it or keep their toys on ground.
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MP, I don,t think you are in aviation or at least not the same world we are in. I did the AFI/ 700hrs to CPL then worked at Cabair instructing on twins before getting an SD360 rating then onto 737/ 757/76 now A330, I think I do understand a lot more than you think, read Lazors, STD DOCS, then get away from flight sim and try and be constructive. As for JAR? You haven,t a clue.
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Well I must admit that I am most intrigued to hear that not only are you flying commercially, you even worked your way up to that position the hard way. Why is it then that you would advise new pilots to waste all that money when you know as well as any of us that there aren't any jobs at the moment?
All around our colleagues are having pay-cuts imposed on them, being made redundant or their employer has gone bust. This is not just contained in the UK, other European countries such as Spain and Italy (among many others) have also seen many experienced pilots out on the street.
JAR was brought in to unionise aviation regulations across Europe and to come up with a standardised system where all aircraft types would be certified in all member states with the minimum of issues regarding airworthiness (think Airbus).
JAR FCL while stopping 1500 SE/SP piston drivers, it certainly did not stop under qualified pilots gaining the licence. This has been addressed to some extent about a year or so ago with the introduction of the ATPL skill test.
But I digress, I still think that your advice to neil_1821 is extremely poor.
All around our colleagues are having pay-cuts imposed on them, being made redundant or their employer has gone bust. This is not just contained in the UK, other European countries such as Spain and Italy (among many others) have also seen many experienced pilots out on the street.
JAR was brought in to unionise aviation regulations across Europe and to come up with a standardised system where all aircraft types would be certified in all member states with the minimum of issues regarding airworthiness (think Airbus).
JAR FCL while stopping 1500 SE/SP piston drivers, it certainly did not stop under qualified pilots gaining the licence. This has been addressed to some extent about a year or so ago with the introduction of the ATPL skill test.
But I digress, I still think that your advice to neil_1821 is extremely poor.
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MP, I am aware that the UK industry is pretty much on its knees and would not suggest that anyone spends either their hard -earned or borrowed money with the view to getting a job in the UK in the current climate. We get a handfull of CVs most weeks from pilots working on summer contracts, some with well known UK outfits that are looking for continuity of work after the season, some of these guys have 500+ hrs on type but due to family and other commitments don't want to work outside UK. Three weeks ago we were base training abroad a bunch of guys that had self typed, all these had bought line packages, and all will go on winter contracts after 300hrs, only problem.. the work is not in UK and guys can find themselves working to live.. that's another story of course. The sad reflection on the UK was that only one student was from here, one from Eire, the rest were all from central europe. Is it a lack of funding, confidence or the fear of large debts.. who can say..On a positive note, it is good to see some of the sponsorship creeping back into the industry over here.. albeit slowly and tough to secure.
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I dont know what to say after reading all this... I know three guys just qualified and have got jobs...
My first flying intrctor with C-152 hours has got job in Kuwait.
And two novices with just CPLs got jobs in one of the airfied in Hertz.
My first flying intrctor with C-152 hours has got job in Kuwait.
And two novices with just CPLs got jobs in one of the airfied in Hertz.
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Mercenary wannabe pilot,Are you serious? Who appointed you head master of aviation advancement?For Petes sake, you've made over 1000 posts! Get a life loser boy, let these guys figure it out the same way we all did. No one gives a rats ass about your arrogant opinions.Sheesh!BFD
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Get a life loser boy, let these guys figure it out the same way we all did