OAA-APP First Officer Skills Assessment
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A little pause for thought, hopefully for those who haven't already thought about it...
Jobs at the moment, in any sector, are down to an absolute minimum.
If you are going to pay c£550 a month on a training loan having taken the integrated route (for the moment ignore the final number, it IS difficult to appreciate how much it is, and I'm not being sarcastic etc, I find it a difficult number to genuinely quantify), you need to understand that in the likely event that you don't get a job straight after finishing, you have to get a job covering this amount before you even begin to pay for petrol, the credit card, going out, blah blah blah.
I realise this sounds obvious. But it is a LOT of money each month, and at the moment all of you who are thinking about doing integrated training (which has a fairly cemented end date) have to consider that there will be a queue as long as all of your arms put together of people who have more experience than you trying to get back into the job market. This includes those pilots laid off from bmi/bmibaby/bmiregional, BA, easyJet (be they CTC cadets with 500 hours or not - that's 500 hours, a type rating, and a shoe-in more than most of you), Thomas Cook (the same applies), Monarch (see previous 2), Aer Lingus (we hear), and any number of other carriers that you can think of.
That means that there may well be, at best, a 2 year wait for the cadet places to come back. You will probably still find yourselves paying another 30 grand (£300pcm) to go and work for the blue and yellows. Who have just been given a no-negotiation pay cut.
That's £850 a month.
But if you don't get the job with Ryanair, or, and DON'T underestimate this bit, can't get the bank to lend you another 30 grand, which is increasingly the case, there are no jobs on civvy street to pay your £550pcm, and no flying jobs unless you get a lucky break. And there are almost none of them around. It is very scary on the first day of the month when you have shelled out your loan, and still have rent, bills, petrol, food, and anything else you can think of. This may well be the biggest recession since the 30's, people may talk about this one in future as being bigger than the 70's and early 80's...and people have to understand, from people who have already spent the money, how dangerous it is stepping into training at the moment. Most of my friends who are in work (and that includes me) are hopeful that we will keep our jobs, but as the recession deepens, there will without doubt be further redundancies, and more experienced, type rated pilots to fit into the queue ahead of the 250 hour (150 actual flight time) cadets.
That's a long way back from the front of the queue.
The boom will last a few years, and the first few will be spent getting guys back into work. It's not a good time to start. There aren't any green shoots of recovery yet. Can you predict when the turnaround will come?
Jobs at the moment, in any sector, are down to an absolute minimum.
If you are going to pay c£550 a month on a training loan having taken the integrated route (for the moment ignore the final number, it IS difficult to appreciate how much it is, and I'm not being sarcastic etc, I find it a difficult number to genuinely quantify), you need to understand that in the likely event that you don't get a job straight after finishing, you have to get a job covering this amount before you even begin to pay for petrol, the credit card, going out, blah blah blah.
I realise this sounds obvious. But it is a LOT of money each month, and at the moment all of you who are thinking about doing integrated training (which has a fairly cemented end date) have to consider that there will be a queue as long as all of your arms put together of people who have more experience than you trying to get back into the job market. This includes those pilots laid off from bmi/bmibaby/bmiregional, BA, easyJet (be they CTC cadets with 500 hours or not - that's 500 hours, a type rating, and a shoe-in more than most of you), Thomas Cook (the same applies), Monarch (see previous 2), Aer Lingus (we hear), and any number of other carriers that you can think of.
That means that there may well be, at best, a 2 year wait for the cadet places to come back. You will probably still find yourselves paying another 30 grand (£300pcm) to go and work for the blue and yellows. Who have just been given a no-negotiation pay cut.
That's £850 a month.
But if you don't get the job with Ryanair, or, and DON'T underestimate this bit, can't get the bank to lend you another 30 grand, which is increasingly the case, there are no jobs on civvy street to pay your £550pcm, and no flying jobs unless you get a lucky break. And there are almost none of them around. It is very scary on the first day of the month when you have shelled out your loan, and still have rent, bills, petrol, food, and anything else you can think of. This may well be the biggest recession since the 30's, people may talk about this one in future as being bigger than the 70's and early 80's...and people have to understand, from people who have already spent the money, how dangerous it is stepping into training at the moment. Most of my friends who are in work (and that includes me) are hopeful that we will keep our jobs, but as the recession deepens, there will without doubt be further redundancies, and more experienced, type rated pilots to fit into the queue ahead of the 250 hour (150 actual flight time) cadets.
That's a long way back from the front of the queue.
The boom will last a few years, and the first few will be spent getting guys back into work. It's not a good time to start. There aren't any green shoots of recovery yet. Can you predict when the turnaround will come?
Last edited by 170to5; 15th Nov 2009 at 11:19.
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Also, remember that to go integrated, you'll have to give up any job that you're currently doing to someone else - that job probably won't be there if you need it when you've finished your training.
Also, doing an FI rating isn't a bad idea, but you may have to travel to work. Which means not living at home, so any thoughts of saving money by living there are negated. There are also long lines of FI's looking for work.
Also, doing an FI rating isn't a bad idea, but you may have to travel to work. Which means not living at home, so any thoughts of saving money by living there are negated. There are also long lines of FI's looking for work.
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I have to agree with spicejetter.
It isn't just what I think, the actual truth of the matter is that people who pay for a TR, line training and hours on type (Eagle Jet, anyone?) are responsible for the damage being done to the industry. Companies see that people are willing to PAY to do a job, and adjust the going rate to reflect this.
It is a sad reflection on the state of the industry to say that I'm relieved (glad is not a particularly pleasant way of saying it) to see the back of people who would otherwise pay to get into a seat. To those people I'd say: this isn't a way to get over your wet dream of flying an airliner - it's my job, my living, and I will aggressively protect myself and my companions from anyone trying to steal what would be a job to those who have earned, by hard work, the right to be there...that includes people with huge wads of cash who spend it fairly and sensibly.
It isn't just what I think, the actual truth of the matter is that people who pay for a TR, line training and hours on type (Eagle Jet, anyone?) are responsible for the damage being done to the industry. Companies see that people are willing to PAY to do a job, and adjust the going rate to reflect this.
It is a sad reflection on the state of the industry to say that I'm relieved (glad is not a particularly pleasant way of saying it) to see the back of people who would otherwise pay to get into a seat. To those people I'd say: this isn't a way to get over your wet dream of flying an airliner - it's my job, my living, and I will aggressively protect myself and my companions from anyone trying to steal what would be a job to those who have earned, by hard work, the right to be there...that includes people with huge wads of cash who spend it fairly and sensibly.
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Hang on, the guy's applying for the OAA/FLYBE scheme so if all goes well he should walk into a job with flybe in 12 months time. There won't be many modular people getting jobs in 12 months still so I say go for it. Of course, like everything, there is no guarantee of a job, buts it's the closest thing to one right now.
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Trick is, are Flybe so secure that he's guaranteed to still have a job waiting for him when he gets out? Genuine question by someone who doesn't know, how secure are Flybe guys at the moment? I heard there are hard times going on over their/your gaff too...
Also sounds pretty patchy to say 'best shot of a job at the moment'...you're right of course, but surely it would then make more sense to wait for a while and see the market picking up?
Also sounds pretty patchy to say 'best shot of a job at the moment'...you're right of course, but surely it would then make more sense to wait for a while and see the market picking up?
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Careful, that’s how rumours start . . . Flybe are as ‘secure’ as anyone in the industry, and while there are never any guarantees, I can think of few airlines with safer job prospects at the moment.
The airline has a robust business model, tight control of costs, and an aircraft that can make money with very few passengers on board. It also has a group of cadets being type rated on the Dash as we speak. Note that’s for permanent jobs, without any requirement to pay for a type rating. I can’t think of any other UK airlines doing that just now.
The airline has a robust business model, tight control of costs, and an aircraft that can make money with very few passengers on board. It also has a group of cadets being type rated on the Dash as we speak. Note that’s for permanent jobs, without any requirement to pay for a type rating. I can’t think of any other UK airlines doing that just now.
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As a genuine question to those who suggest that anyone who can "afford to sit out the bad times" - are you REALLY so myopic as to think this grouping is really constituted only of the 17 year old offspring of multi millionaires?
Has it not occurred to you that people such as me exist - 35 years old with a very nice career backing me up (and indeed propping me up since finishing my training)? Does it not occur that the MAJORITY of people in this group are probably like me?
I also particularly love comments where people "vigourously defend" their [proprietory] industry against the tyranny of people paying for TRs, with no recognition at all of the irony that actually, any single one of us that has paid our own money towards professional training has helped the whole thing down that slippery path....after all, if people only embarked on professional licences for fun or when an employer offered them an "apprenticeship" type role, then Ts&Cs would be excellent. Strange how perspective is limited to how our own actions are acceptable, but those of others are not.
Let's face it, what's the difference, in reality, between paying for the base licence to do the generic job you hope somone to pay you for and paying for the advanced licence to let you do a specific job...they both indicate to the employer that they can let someone else take that risk...
As to Flybe - of all the airlines likely to go bust, they'd be near the top of my list of those likely to come out stronger than ever. That said, this time last year, who bet on Jenson Button being world Champion? You can never tell what the future holds, but barring unforseen disasters, I would think Flybe are safe...
Has it not occurred to you that people such as me exist - 35 years old with a very nice career backing me up (and indeed propping me up since finishing my training)? Does it not occur that the MAJORITY of people in this group are probably like me?
I also particularly love comments where people "vigourously defend" their [proprietory] industry against the tyranny of people paying for TRs, with no recognition at all of the irony that actually, any single one of us that has paid our own money towards professional training has helped the whole thing down that slippery path....after all, if people only embarked on professional licences for fun or when an employer offered them an "apprenticeship" type role, then Ts&Cs would be excellent. Strange how perspective is limited to how our own actions are acceptable, but those of others are not.
Let's face it, what's the difference, in reality, between paying for the base licence to do the generic job you hope somone to pay you for and paying for the advanced licence to let you do a specific job...they both indicate to the employer that they can let someone else take that risk...
As to Flybe - of all the airlines likely to go bust, they'd be near the top of my list of those likely to come out stronger than ever. That said, this time last year, who bet on Jenson Button being world Champion? You can never tell what the future holds, but barring unforseen disasters, I would think Flybe are safe...
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clanger
I'll assume that was aimed at me...I was referring to the people who pay for line training and even hours on type.
I'd love to have had my training paid for, but the days of that are pretty much over, and have been for some time (since 2001)...nice to see that some companies are still doing it though...
And yes, I realise that Flybe are pretty much one of the most secure lines out there at the moment - whatever that means - suppose I was just thinking out loud...
I'll assume that was aimed at me...I was referring to the people who pay for line training and even hours on type.
I'd love to have had my training paid for, but the days of that are pretty much over, and have been for some time (since 2001)...nice to see that some companies are still doing it though...
And yes, I realise that Flybe are pretty much one of the most secure lines out there at the moment - whatever that means - suppose I was just thinking out loud...
