Some unity on paying for Type Ratings and line training?
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Mixmaster.
Not counting the school where I instructed I have worked at three companies. Neither my current company nor the last one would dream of asking a pilot to pay for their type rating. The other asked me to pay, I declined, they dropped the idea. I've turned down jobs that required me to buy a TR and undoubtedly that slowed my career progress so please don't insinuate that I've done nothing to help. Search my previous posts. For pretty much ten years I've been droning on about this and I'm now being proved right. God, I wish I weren't.
Being inside the company they've more chance than most. If they can't be bothered.........
The call here is for help and solidarity with which I agree. Where better place to start with the very people who contributed to this mess? As we've seen though it's 'I'm alright Jack'. They've poisoned the waterhole and moved on. No point getting annoyed with us who have gone out of our way to discourage the practice, those of us who have stayed away from these companies. Take it up with 'them'. You'll have noticed though the deafening silence. How many 'thems' have joined this conversation? How many have proposed any action to help out? Don't get angry with me, ask them. If you can't see that I don't know how to explain it in simpler terms.
Been there, done that. <Sob story> Sold everything we owned. Moved across the world (twice). Lived with family and friends, lived apart from my family for months at a time, saw my children sleep on other peoples floors and sofas.......... Am I the only one? No. Do I want sympathy? No. What did I do about it? Took any job I could to pay the bills until a flying job came along. Those who insist that they have to borrow more money so their first job can be on a Boeingbus are detached from reality.
Nobody in their right mind starts flying training without a plan 'B'. It's like taking off without a viable alternate. Some might not like it but their plan 'B' could turn out to be a white van, 7.5 tonne lorry or the night shift in a Tesco warehouse. Not ideal but it pays the bills.
Not counting the school where I instructed I have worked at three companies. Neither my current company nor the last one would dream of asking a pilot to pay for their type rating. The other asked me to pay, I declined, they dropped the idea. I've turned down jobs that required me to buy a TR and undoubtedly that slowed my career progress so please don't insinuate that I've done nothing to help. Search my previous posts. For pretty much ten years I've been droning on about this and I'm now being proved right. God, I wish I weren't.
Originally Posted by Mixmaster
...how can a RYR FO change that for new cadets?
The call here is for help and solidarity with which I agree. Where better place to start with the very people who contributed to this mess? As we've seen though it's 'I'm alright Jack'. They've poisoned the waterhole and moved on. No point getting annoyed with us who have gone out of our way to discourage the practice, those of us who have stayed away from these companies. Take it up with 'them'. You'll have noticed though the deafening silence. How many 'thems' have joined this conversation? How many have proposed any action to help out? Don't get angry with me, ask them. If you can't see that I don't know how to explain it in simpler terms.
Originally Posted by Mixmaster
.....X thousands of debt....families and others to feed....trying to get their foot in the door of the industry.
Nobody in their right mind starts flying training without a plan 'B'. It's like taking off without a viable alternate. Some might not like it but their plan 'B' could turn out to be a white van, 7.5 tonne lorry or the night shift in a Tesco warehouse. Not ideal but it pays the bills.
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is letting your kids grow up living in other peoples houses really any more moral than cadets paying for a type rating? i know its a sensitive issue and i dont mean to offend but just something i picked up on. we all make sacrifices in our own individual ways.
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Well said Flinstone, I know at one point I considered buying a job or a T/R at least, but slapped myself in the face and snapped out of it, the reason I considered it was for progression, after the ME/IR then MCC on a 737, and enjoying the multi crew environment I wanted more and who doesnt, the low houred jobs where drying up quick and the only guys I know getting in where ones who paid, but at what cost?
Finacialy yes I could afford it, but the effect on the industry of these schemes is diabolical and it will continue to spiral unless people stop.
Unity, I am all for it and count me in, but things will not change, there will always be the one, you only need to look at recent threads on here, where is the best place to do a A320/737/CJ etc T/R with L/T, within the last 12 months or so on here we have even had someone looking for hour building on a 757, I kid you not!
For me its the instructing route, ride out the storm and see what happens the otherside, the easy credit has dried up, equity in property has fallen, no more 95-120% LTV mortgages, so heres hoping the pay to fly dries up with it. If these schemes cant be supported then things will change, but I doubt it , there will always be the ones who pay.
Finacialy yes I could afford it, but the effect on the industry of these schemes is diabolical and it will continue to spiral unless people stop.
Unity, I am all for it and count me in, but things will not change, there will always be the one, you only need to look at recent threads on here, where is the best place to do a A320/737/CJ etc T/R with L/T, within the last 12 months or so on here we have even had someone looking for hour building on a 757, I kid you not!
For me its the instructing route, ride out the storm and see what happens the otherside, the easy credit has dried up, equity in property has fallen, no more 95-120% LTV mortgages, so heres hoping the pay to fly dries up with it. If these schemes cant be supported then things will change, but I doubt it , there will always be the ones who pay.
I paid for my type rating, and line training. Why? It was either that, or get an instructors rating, and fight it out in the current climate. I had the funds available, so I paid, worked hard, and now have a contract at the end of it. I've flown with Captains who've experienced past recessions, some of them paid for their ratings at the time also.
It's worked out well for me, if I had to make the choice again, knowing the outcome, I'd definately make the same one. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but if done correctly, and with a bit of luck, it can be a good way to progress your career.
It's worked out well for me, if I had to make the choice again, knowing the outcome, I'd definately make the same one. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but if done correctly, and with a bit of luck, it can be a good way to progress your career.
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Not counting the school where I instructed I have worked at three companies. Neither my current company nor the last one would dream of asking a pilot to pay for their type rating.
Seems like you're fortunate enough Flinstone to have been hired by a company thatdoes not enter into SSTR's. Others, especially in this climate, are not so fortunate.
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Its completely ignorant of current circumstances, for you guys, many of whom seem to already have jobs, to rant on about not paying for Type Rating and Line Training.
Are you guys really aware of what is happening in this current market? There's very few jobs available (translate as Ryanair and a very few others) and those jobs that are there require payment for a Type Rating.
If you were a 20 year old who had just completed fATPL, and thus was massively in the hole financially, don't you realise if you DON'T for for a TR, you simply won't get hired. So your 60K stg. is wasted - you simply can't go forward with 200 hours in this current market. Really the only option is, when you are so far into the hole, to go the extra step and get the TR and maybe that will lead to a job, because standing still with your 200 hours without a TR won't get you anywhere.
And don't give any homilies about "be a FI", or "there are jobs out there - you just have to look" - these are unrealistic as FI's aren't needed in the worst recession for 100 years and there simply are no jobs for low hours guys.
Are you guys really aware of what is happening in this current market? There's very few jobs available (translate as Ryanair and a very few others) and those jobs that are there require payment for a Type Rating.
If you were a 20 year old who had just completed fATPL, and thus was massively in the hole financially, don't you realise if you DON'T for for a TR, you simply won't get hired. So your 60K stg. is wasted - you simply can't go forward with 200 hours in this current market. Really the only option is, when you are so far into the hole, to go the extra step and get the TR and maybe that will lead to a job, because standing still with your 200 hours without a TR won't get you anywhere.
And don't give any homilies about "be a FI", or "there are jobs out there - you just have to look" - these are unrealistic as FI's aren't needed in the worst recession for 100 years and there simply are no jobs for low hours guys.
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It's up to you mate, you're free to waste your money.... Have you ever heard that one of the main thing before starting a training is to have a back up plan (except of course if daddy can help you) in case of anything like our massive downturn happens??????
2 good friends of mine just finished their training and are both in your situation... One went back to his dispatcher job and the other to his law firm (he used to negotiate contracts for airlines)... They find it hard but they keep an eye on any opportunity anywhere ...
But in the other hand, as you'll probably never pay back the amount you borrowed... Go ahead, enjoy!
2 good friends of mine just finished their training and are both in your situation... One went back to his dispatcher job and the other to his law firm (he used to negotiate contracts for airlines)... They find it hard but they keep an eye on any opportunity anywhere ...
But in the other hand, as you'll probably never pay back the amount you borrowed... Go ahead, enjoy!
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Like many things the theory of all newbies refusing to pay for type ratings is sound and admirable, but in practice it probably wouldn't work.
There will always be those who will break ranks when tempted by the possibility of a straight to jets job, and as long as that is the case, there will be companies looking to profit. Its human nature.
Demand for pilots is low, supply is high so you have to bend over and take it in the rear for a job at the moment. However, it won't be like this forever and the time will come when demand for pilots is high, but there are few people in the training system due to the previous lack of jobs. When that happens there won't be any mention of paying for type ratings, so the whole thing is market driven.
There will always be those who will break ranks when tempted by the possibility of a straight to jets job, and as long as that is the case, there will be companies looking to profit. Its human nature.
Demand for pilots is low, supply is high so you have to bend over and take it in the rear for a job at the moment. However, it won't be like this forever and the time will come when demand for pilots is high, but there are few people in the training system due to the previous lack of jobs. When that happens there won't be any mention of paying for type ratings, so the whole thing is market driven.
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Mixmaster.
Clearly we're doomed to agree 'it' is bad but disagree on the fix. I still say the strongest incentive is with the applicants who are best placed to harness that and try to forge some unity. If so many of them are sitting around doing nothing (unlike Bambe's friends) what's to stop them anonymously starting the ball rolling? At the very least they might publicise this sorry state of affairs and prevent someone else getting mired in a year or so. Or is that too idealistic?
Another Old Fogey. Sorry but 'we' are aware of the situation. Read this and other threads and you'll see that some of us have been warning about the folly of buying jobs for years. Your refusal to go a slower career route merely adds to the problem. Even now those of you who are complaining about this state of affairs (and those who got you into it) seem quite happy to do it to those who follow. Think on that.
Nearly There. Nice to see someone with integrity.
PS In marked contrast to this conversation in the Bizjet forum there's a thread where people are beginning to swop ideas on staying afloat and you'd be amazed at how many PM's are exchanged offering help and giving tips on job openings. Another thread where those seeking work can post their CV's. Maybe bizjet pilots are just more pro-active and better at team work?
Clearly we're doomed to agree 'it' is bad but disagree on the fix. I still say the strongest incentive is with the applicants who are best placed to harness that and try to forge some unity. If so many of them are sitting around doing nothing (unlike Bambe's friends) what's to stop them anonymously starting the ball rolling? At the very least they might publicise this sorry state of affairs and prevent someone else getting mired in a year or so. Or is that too idealistic?
Another Old Fogey. Sorry but 'we' are aware of the situation. Read this and other threads and you'll see that some of us have been warning about the folly of buying jobs for years. Your refusal to go a slower career route merely adds to the problem. Even now those of you who are complaining about this state of affairs (and those who got you into it) seem quite happy to do it to those who follow. Think on that.
Nearly There. Nice to see someone with integrity.
PS In marked contrast to this conversation in the Bizjet forum there's a thread where people are beginning to swop ideas on staying afloat and you'd be amazed at how many PM's are exchanged offering help and giving tips on job openings. Another thread where those seeking work can post their CV's. Maybe bizjet pilots are just more pro-active and better at team work?
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mistake me If I am wrong but apparently the Ryanair assessment days are full for the next 2-3 months.
WHO HAS THIS MONEY..........
25 guys/girls a time.... all prepared to spend 30k for the NG rating, bonded for 2 years IF you get a job offer....(base and line training)
No Accom or living expenses whilst on the course. No salary whilst on line training, and then work on a reduced salary in the region of 20k for 2 years.
If you take into account that most people have had day jobs in other professions prior to flying.... Loss of earnings!!!!!
Take all this into account and your well past 40k???? Holy Sh*t
As this thread states... This is ridiculous yet these people will still pander to the airlines.....
Airline Pilot, great job..... not if you and your family are living in a shoe box caravan because you had to sell your house to pay for your training and rating....
WHO HAS THIS MONEY..........
25 guys/girls a time.... all prepared to spend 30k for the NG rating, bonded for 2 years IF you get a job offer....(base and line training)
No Accom or living expenses whilst on the course. No salary whilst on line training, and then work on a reduced salary in the region of 20k for 2 years.
If you take into account that most people have had day jobs in other professions prior to flying.... Loss of earnings!!!!!
Take all this into account and your well past 40k???? Holy Sh*t
As this thread states... This is ridiculous yet these people will still pander to the airlines.....
Airline Pilot, great job..... not if you and your family are living in a shoe box caravan because you had to sell your house to pay for your training and rating....
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At what point does buying a type rating become unethical?
How about buying a Twin Otter rating, or a Saab 340, PA46, J31, Dash 8?
It was my understanding that people wanting to get into the smaller prop companies usually paid for their own rating to make them more attractive to the operator?
How about buying a Twin Otter rating, or a Saab 340, PA46, J31, Dash 8?
It was my understanding that people wanting to get into the smaller prop companies usually paid for their own rating to make them more attractive to the operator?
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EZY.
It used to be only the airlines that people bought their jobs with, now it's filtering down to all sized companies. At least in years to come when you meet a new pilot you can say "Welcome to aviation. Sorry it's f***ed but it was like that when I got here".
Sorry, but some of us tried.
It used to be only the airlines that people bought their jobs with, now it's filtering down to all sized companies. At least in years to come when you meet a new pilot you can say "Welcome to aviation. Sorry it's f***ed but it was like that when I got here".
Sorry, but some of us tried.
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I don't think I worded the last post correctly.
I'm not enquiring as to which type rating I can go out and buy guilt-free.
All I'm saying is that it seems like people have been paying for smaller AC type ratings for years, outrage only kicks in now that folk are paying for Airbus and Boeing ratings.
I'm not enquiring as to which type rating I can go out and buy guilt-free.
All I'm saying is that it seems like people have been paying for smaller AC type ratings for years, outrage only kicks in now that folk are paying for Airbus and Boeing ratings.
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You see, I actually think that Flintstone AND Mixmaster have good points. Flintstone and I have locked horns on this previously and I well know his view....correctly in some ways, that it's in the thrall of all of us to stop it.
However, for my money, the way to stop this is for ALL - Wannabes AND current LTCs, TRIs etc - to pull together....if a good percentage of us just refused to pay, AND the LTCs etc just stepped away from the whole training piece, then it would die very quickly....but therein lies the rub of this.
Current LTCs worked hard to get where they are, so why should they give up the extra bunce reward of their hard work? After all they didn't pay to get there, they worked hard. Indeed it is "I'm alright Jack", but it's disengenuous to suggest that this only exists from one side of the argument...
It's also kind of like the chicken/egg thing....did SSTRs crop up because Newbies were prepared to pay for it, or because they LTCs etc allowed it to happen and agreed to train those newbies...
One look through this thread shows how deeply divided the whole piloting community is - and speaking from my 10+ years in senior management, -rather than my shiny new fATPL, it's this that makes it a piece of piss to divide and conquer if you have little morals....
Sad but true.
However, for my money, the way to stop this is for ALL - Wannabes AND current LTCs, TRIs etc - to pull together....if a good percentage of us just refused to pay, AND the LTCs etc just stepped away from the whole training piece, then it would die very quickly....but therein lies the rub of this.
Current LTCs worked hard to get where they are, so why should they give up the extra bunce reward of their hard work? After all they didn't pay to get there, they worked hard. Indeed it is "I'm alright Jack", but it's disengenuous to suggest that this only exists from one side of the argument...
It's also kind of like the chicken/egg thing....did SSTRs crop up because Newbies were prepared to pay for it, or because they LTCs etc allowed it to happen and agreed to train those newbies...
One look through this thread shows how deeply divided the whole piloting community is - and speaking from my 10+ years in senior management, -rather than my shiny new fATPL, it's this that makes it a piece of piss to divide and conquer if you have little morals....
Sad but true.
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This idea has only got one chance and that is if the people who lend the money for tr's come to their senses, whether it's to daddy for his re-mortgage or to the individual for the same. Why pay to work? The problem that the Ryanair cadets fail to see is that Ryanair need more cadets to keep the whole thing profitable. If Ryanair didn't get the money from the assessments and training and didn't keep the low paid cadets churning through the mill, they wouldn't make a profit.
I'll give you two predictions,
1. Ryanair in the future will lay off cadets on this contract and keep training new cadets to replace them in order to generate income.
2. The UK IR will declare the Brookfield contract null and void as a self-employed scheme, then Ryanair will be well and truly stuffed.
I'll give you two predictions,
1. Ryanair in the future will lay off cadets on this contract and keep training new cadets to replace them in order to generate income.
2. The UK IR will declare the Brookfield contract null and void as a self-employed scheme, then Ryanair will be well and truly stuffed.
Last edited by MVE; 2nd Mar 2009 at 16:53.
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Clanger. You're wrong again.
Nah, just kidding Divide and rule is spot on though and harder times make that easier. I've seen it first hand in other ways and (for the company) it works. It will continue to work for the likes of RYR because the various groups won't come together. Sure the wannabees would love the support of those within RYR but the latter can barely organise themselves for their own benefit let alone for people who don't even work with them. This is why I think the wannabees need to do something for themselves. They got into this mess, it's time to take responsibility and at the very least raise awareness of the situation. They're the smart ones, right? The internet generation? It could all be done anonymously with the somewhat sneaky potential for putting others off. Less competition for those elusive jobs.
I agree with MVE in that RYR may lay off FO's to accomodate the next tranche and I suspect some of the crew within the company fear this too. It's the elephant in the room but whenever it came up before any RYR insiders suddenly lost interest in the conversation. A company that is happy to charge a couple of pounds for a credit card booking and £10 to carry your own duty free on board will have no qualms whatsoever with such a scheme at which point it becomes what many said would never be seen on these shores, 'pay to fly'.
I just hope that anyone considering a career via this route finds PPRuNe, searches and reads these threads. These companies and the training organisations would all have them believe that if they throw enough cash at it they'll go straight to the RH seat. They need to see how it can go wrong before we find ourselves in the same position as Australia in the 90's when upward of 50% of new CPLs never got a job flying and drifted off into the workforce having to do something else.
Nah, just kidding
Divide and rule is spot on though and harder times make that easier. I've seen it first hand in other ways and (for the company) it works. It will continue to work for the likes of RYR because the various groups won't come together. Sure the wannabees would love the support of those within RYR but the latter can barely organise themselves for their own benefit let alone for people who don't even work with them. This is why I think the wannabees need to do something for themselves. They got into this mess, it's time to take responsibility and at the very least raise awareness of the situation. They're the smart ones, right? The internet generation? It could all be done anonymously with the somewhat sneaky potential for putting others off. Less competition for those elusive jobs. I agree with MVE in that RYR may lay off FO's to accomodate the next tranche and I suspect some of the crew within the company fear this too. It's the elephant in the room but whenever it came up before any RYR insiders suddenly lost interest in the conversation. A company that is happy to charge a couple of pounds for a credit card booking and £10 to carry your own duty free on board will have no qualms whatsoever with such a scheme at which point it becomes what many said would never be seen on these shores, 'pay to fly'.
I just hope that anyone considering a career via this route finds PPRuNe, searches and reads these threads. These companies and the training organisations would all have them believe that if they throw enough cash at it they'll go straight to the RH seat. They need to see how it can go wrong before we find ourselves in the same position as Australia in the 90's when upward of 50% of new CPLs never got a job flying and drifted off into the workforce having to do something else.
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Although many people do not agree with the paying for a TR, I paid for a rating a couple of years ago after spending 4-5 months searching for a job, with no response from any airline.
I went to do a TR after a recommendation from my flying school (BFC) following a request for students to be put forward for the course. With no sniff of a job in months, I got something in writing from the airline and went ahead with the training. The five of us, recommended by the training school, that paid for our training ended up in the RHS, working for the airline.
Whilst many people disagree with this, there are far too many people with 250 hr CPL/IRs and no way of distinguishing between them. When the chance of a job comes along after you have already invested £60k, why not pay for a rating? I didn't have a silver spoon...far from it! I worked hard for 8 years to pay for this, and still have massive debits around the £80k mark. I know a couple of people instructing, one of which did his CPL/IR at the same school as me, and the other who went through ATPLs with me. Both had to pay for the instructor course, but do not get criticised for this...at least they are building hours, gaining experience and keeping current.
I think that paying for a rating is here to stay and it does NOT guarantee a job at the end of it - There are a few CTC guys with A320/1 ratings and time on type that were not kept on at the end of last summer in the airline I am now working for. Also, from my TR, of the 6 of us on the course (not including the guys from my training school), 4 are currently out of work and have a jet rating.
A TR does not buy you the job, it just gets your CV read and shows you can bridge the huge void between flying a twin prop and flying a jet.
Any newbees reading this, add the cost of a TR into your training budget! The schools sell flight training to you, but they do not tell you that once you are finished, you are on your own to find a job. Also, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people with the same 250'ish hour CPL & IR qualification going for the same job. You have to make your won luck, which might mean paying for a rating. Harsh, but true.
To answer the other question of "where are all the jobs"...there aren't many out there, and certainly weren't ever enough for the hundreds of people qualifying each year. With XL, Silverjet, and Zoom going bust, and other airlines reducing capacity, the market is flooded with experienced pilots. This means that there is a reduced traditional flow of people from Turboprops to Jet jobs, meaning there are no Turboprop job vacancies being created for the newly qualified guys. Also if you read about a pilot shortage, they actually mean a shortage of suitably qualified people with time on type and experience...the most difficult thing to obtain!
People hate it, but if you can afford it and are guaranteed a job at the end of the course, pay for a rating!
I went to do a TR after a recommendation from my flying school (BFC) following a request for students to be put forward for the course. With no sniff of a job in months, I got something in writing from the airline and went ahead with the training. The five of us, recommended by the training school, that paid for our training ended up in the RHS, working for the airline.
Whilst many people disagree with this, there are far too many people with 250 hr CPL/IRs and no way of distinguishing between them. When the chance of a job comes along after you have already invested £60k, why not pay for a rating? I didn't have a silver spoon...far from it! I worked hard for 8 years to pay for this, and still have massive debits around the £80k mark. I know a couple of people instructing, one of which did his CPL/IR at the same school as me, and the other who went through ATPLs with me. Both had to pay for the instructor course, but do not get criticised for this...at least they are building hours, gaining experience and keeping current.
I think that paying for a rating is here to stay and it does NOT guarantee a job at the end of it - There are a few CTC guys with A320/1 ratings and time on type that were not kept on at the end of last summer in the airline I am now working for. Also, from my TR, of the 6 of us on the course (not including the guys from my training school), 4 are currently out of work and have a jet rating.
A TR does not buy you the job, it just gets your CV read and shows you can bridge the huge void between flying a twin prop and flying a jet.
Any newbees reading this, add the cost of a TR into your training budget! The schools sell flight training to you, but they do not tell you that once you are finished, you are on your own to find a job. Also, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people with the same 250'ish hour CPL & IR qualification going for the same job. You have to make your won luck, which might mean paying for a rating. Harsh, but true.
To answer the other question of "where are all the jobs"...there aren't many out there, and certainly weren't ever enough for the hundreds of people qualifying each year. With XL, Silverjet, and Zoom going bust, and other airlines reducing capacity, the market is flooded with experienced pilots. This means that there is a reduced traditional flow of people from Turboprops to Jet jobs, meaning there are no Turboprop job vacancies being created for the newly qualified guys. Also if you read about a pilot shortage, they actually mean a shortage of suitably qualified people with time on type and experience...the most difficult thing to obtain!
People hate it, but if you can afford it and are guaranteed a job at the end of the course, pay for a rating!