When can you begin to get paid...?
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When can you begin to get paid...?
Suddenly this question came up into my mind... 
At which point into a pilot' s life it's fair to get paid for the job you do ?
I'm still studying to get my ATPL. Looking around and receiveing feedback from some poeple into the business I noticed that many fellows pay to fly, to buy a TR and sit on plane for more or less 6 months, or don't even get paid for being FI (something which is not really fair seen the impoortance of the job...) because in this way they can anyway log hours. Which is the way out ? When is it time to get paid for doing this job ?
At which point into a pilot' s life it's fair to get paid for the job you do ?
I'm still studying to get my ATPL. Looking around and receiveing feedback from some poeple into the business I noticed that many fellows pay to fly, to buy a TR and sit on plane for more or less 6 months, or don't even get paid for being FI (something which is not really fair seen the impoortance of the job...) because in this way they can anyway log hours. Which is the way out ? When is it time to get paid for doing this job ?
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It's fair to be paid for the job you do from the moment you start it. Many airlines do that but a growing number don't.
Unfortuntely it's an employers market. It's their train set so they make the rules. If you want to play with the train set then you can either choose to go with the situation or find somewhere else.
Again, unfortunately, there are very few jobs for experienced crews let alone newbies.
Do be aware however that to pay for a TR with a guaranteed job could put you ahead of a lower paid bonded pilot in under 2 years depending obviously on who you are comparing.
You have to come in to this game with your eyes wide open. If you accept something then accept it.
Good luck
Unfortuntely it's an employers market. It's their train set so they make the rules. If you want to play with the train set then you can either choose to go with the situation or find somewhere else.
Again, unfortunately, there are very few jobs for experienced crews let alone newbies.
Do be aware however that to pay for a TR with a guaranteed job could put you ahead of a lower paid bonded pilot in under 2 years depending obviously on who you are comparing.
You have to come in to this game with your eyes wide open. If you accept something then accept it.
Good luck
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Don't confuse fairness with market forces.
Most people would regard it as fair to be paid from day one of company induction or groundschool. You are, after all, an employee. That's how life works in most industries.
Unfortunately, in this industry, some people are so desperate to fly that they'll sell their granny for a first job. Pay for an application? No problem. Pay for a type rating? Sure. Pay for 'line training experience'? Why not? Never mind that in the long term it erodes everyone else's terms and conditions by encouraging management to force ever more training costs onto the individual. Who cares when all that matters is getting into the RHS of an Airbus or 737 with 200 hours.
Such is the aviation market, and that's what dictates when and how much you get paid. Fairness doesn't come into it.
Most people would regard it as fair to be paid from day one of company induction or groundschool. You are, after all, an employee. That's how life works in most industries.
Unfortunately, in this industry, some people are so desperate to fly that they'll sell their granny for a first job. Pay for an application? No problem. Pay for a type rating? Sure. Pay for 'line training experience'? Why not? Never mind that in the long term it erodes everyone else's terms and conditions by encouraging management to force ever more training costs onto the individual. Who cares when all that matters is getting into the RHS of an Airbus or 737 with 200 hours.
Such is the aviation market, and that's what dictates when and how much you get paid. Fairness doesn't come into it.
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What G-SXTY says could happen in any industry but it doesn't. One word:
It defies belief how aviation training and employment is not regulated. I've said it before, there must be more train driver wannabes than there are driver jobs too, but you don't see type ratings or line training joy rides for wannabe train drivers. Oh no we couldn't have that, safety is just too important!
One could argue the railway industry is an employers market too but you don't see the same level of abuse. The reason for this abismal level of abuse in the aviation industry is because the CAA/JAA are spineless and unable to protect the very industry they are supposed to be serving.
REGULATION
It defies belief how aviation training and employment is not regulated. I've said it before, there must be more train driver wannabes than there are driver jobs too, but you don't see type ratings or line training joy rides for wannabe train drivers. Oh no we couldn't have that, safety is just too important!
One could argue the railway industry is an employers market too but you don't see the same level of abuse. The reason for this abismal level of abuse in the aviation industry is because the CAA/JAA are spineless and unable to protect the very industry they are supposed to be serving.
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Salary, really needed...?
Excellent question... When finally paid...?
Do not complain about it.
The newer pilot generations got this situation upon theirselves.
xxx
The golden age of airline pilots hiring was the 1960s...
Many came from the military, some others funded their CPL/IR... affordable then.
xxx
Back then, young kids wanted to be pilots, fly air force or navy jet fighters.
There was no interest to be a F/O on DC-3 or CV-440, or even a F-27.
All was "Blue Angels" or "Thunderbirds", and "Red Arrows"...
Teen heroes were fighter pilots, not "airline" bus drivers...
xxx
Do not come to me with your "I feel I must be an airline pilot" because you like it.
If you were a pilot at heart, you would love to be in a FA-18 or Rafale.
I shall venture to say that 99% of pilots joining airlines do it for €€€ or $$$.
I did, and bailed out of the military ASAP for big money.
Problem is, salaries are not as high as they used to be.
As a matter of fact, some "airline regionals" (USA) pay $20,000/yr start pay.
The "poverty level" (in USA) is about that number... for some benefits.
xxx
In the 1960s, airlines had problems finding pilots, so up went salaries.
Then as salaries went up, applicants increased in numbers.
In mid-1970s, started the "buy yourself an ATPL, and/or a F/E license".
And in the 1980s... a type rating, 727 was a premium, then later was 737.
Daddy will pay the bill. Now it is a house mortgage.
xxx
And you guys went on... even buying line training in this day and age.
Started to be 2,000 candidates for 1,000 openings.
Salaries, obviously went down.
Soon, F/Os will buy theirselves passage and ticket for a flight.
Maybe captains might be considered for a salary.
xxx
I would advise you all to stop this nonsense, but I know you will not.
If you cannot be considered to be selected as cadet, money will do.
Welcome to your career at McDonald's, with a fATPL in your pocket.
xxx
I have little sympathy for your financial problems. Sorry.
Airlines would fund fATPL and type ratings if there were no candidates.
And even pay a partial salary, room and board during training.
All I had my mother pay for was a PPL.
xxx
Regretfully, but my opinion.
Happy contrails - and a happy 2009 anyway.
Do not complain about it.
The newer pilot generations got this situation upon theirselves.
xxx
The golden age of airline pilots hiring was the 1960s...
Many came from the military, some others funded their CPL/IR... affordable then.
xxx
Back then, young kids wanted to be pilots, fly air force or navy jet fighters.
There was no interest to be a F/O on DC-3 or CV-440, or even a F-27.
All was "Blue Angels" or "Thunderbirds", and "Red Arrows"...
Teen heroes were fighter pilots, not "airline" bus drivers...
xxx
Do not come to me with your "I feel I must be an airline pilot" because you like it.
If you were a pilot at heart, you would love to be in a FA-18 or Rafale.
I shall venture to say that 99% of pilots joining airlines do it for €€€ or $$$.
I did, and bailed out of the military ASAP for big money.
Problem is, salaries are not as high as they used to be.
As a matter of fact, some "airline regionals" (USA) pay $20,000/yr start pay.
The "poverty level" (in USA) is about that number... for some benefits.
xxx
In the 1960s, airlines had problems finding pilots, so up went salaries.
Then as salaries went up, applicants increased in numbers.
In mid-1970s, started the "buy yourself an ATPL, and/or a F/E license".
And in the 1980s... a type rating, 727 was a premium, then later was 737.
Daddy will pay the bill. Now it is a house mortgage.
xxx
And you guys went on... even buying line training in this day and age.
Started to be 2,000 candidates for 1,000 openings.
Salaries, obviously went down.
Soon, F/Os will buy theirselves passage and ticket for a flight.
Maybe captains might be considered for a salary.
xxx
I would advise you all to stop this nonsense, but I know you will not.
If you cannot be considered to be selected as cadet, money will do.
Welcome to your career at McDonald's, with a fATPL in your pocket.
xxx
I have little sympathy for your financial problems. Sorry.
Airlines would fund fATPL and type ratings if there were no candidates.
And even pay a partial salary, room and board during training.
All I had my mother pay for was a PPL.
xxx
Regretfully, but my opinion.
Happy contrails - and a happy 2009 anyway.
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BelArgUSA,
I totally agree with you. Somewhere they call this GLOBALIZATION, or, to give the same opportunities to all. Flightschools are happy with it. Really happy. And airlines as well.
You say "...Airlines would fund fATPL and type ratings if there were no candidate...". And probably many countries would keep on exporting goods if there were no low-price far east competition. And many of us would live better at Hawaii rather than in the city. And so on.... I mean : this is a matter of fact. This is where we are.
Now my question is : which could be the way out?
I totally agree with you. Somewhere they call this GLOBALIZATION, or, to give the same opportunities to all. Flightschools are happy with it. Really happy. And airlines as well.
You say "...Airlines would fund fATPL and type ratings if there were no candidate...". And probably many countries would keep on exporting goods if there were no low-price far east competition. And many of us would live better at Hawaii rather than in the city. And so on.... I mean : this is a matter of fact. This is where we are.
Now my question is : which could be the way out?
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Ive been flying in airlines for the last 6 years(not long I know) and I have never met anybody who PAID for their type rating. Ive met plenty that have been bonded by the company where they will have to pay back the training cost if they were to leave within a specified period, but thats it.
Anyway the point is im not sure this 'pay for the type rating' thing is as rife as you think, sure there are some out there but not that many. As for not really wanting to be a pilot unless you want to fly fighters, and all in it for the money, absolute tosh! I wanted to be a pilot from the minute i knew what an aircraft was, but was never that interested in the military and certainly never ever got into it for the money.
Anyway the point is im not sure this 'pay for the type rating' thing is as rife as you think, sure there are some out there but not that many. As for not really wanting to be a pilot unless you want to fly fighters, and all in it for the money, absolute tosh! I wanted to be a pilot from the minute i knew what an aircraft was, but was never that interested in the military and certainly never ever got into it for the money.
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I am a new airline pilot, been flying a 737 for the last year now, I paid all my training by way of savings and family help, got offered a job with a self funded type rating.
I prefer the self funding over bonding, bonding might be more secure in the long run as the airline are invested in you, but i do perfer that there is no reduced wage to cover the type for a few years just a bank loan and i am in my own right to move around should i feel the need with no finantial penelty.
these old magical fully paid courses by the airline are all but gone now and this seems to be the way in from what I can see, I dont mind as it was my decision to be a pilot and the way I see it is that I have invested all this money in me as a business rather than buying a bar or something, if I had gone into that trade I could have taken a low paying managers job or shelled out loads of money to buy one (same thing as training and a type to me)
as to these old boys complaining saying its guys like me erroding terms and conditaions,,,,,, well this is whats on the table these days so I put it that its you guys that have been sqrewing us over the last 30years and your hanging on now at the top of the tree thats taken you a long time to build upto, this is whats waiting for us at the bottom these days when we finish training so its either accept that pilots are not seen as movie stars any more and get on with starting a decent career or bitch and moan on here and get a job at McDonnalds (where i worked during college)
I prefer the self funding over bonding, bonding might be more secure in the long run as the airline are invested in you, but i do perfer that there is no reduced wage to cover the type for a few years just a bank loan and i am in my own right to move around should i feel the need with no finantial penelty.
these old magical fully paid courses by the airline are all but gone now and this seems to be the way in from what I can see, I dont mind as it was my decision to be a pilot and the way I see it is that I have invested all this money in me as a business rather than buying a bar or something, if I had gone into that trade I could have taken a low paying managers job or shelled out loads of money to buy one (same thing as training and a type to me)
as to these old boys complaining saying its guys like me erroding terms and conditaions,,,,,, well this is whats on the table these days so I put it that its you guys that have been sqrewing us over the last 30years and your hanging on now at the top of the tree thats taken you a long time to build upto, this is whats waiting for us at the bottom these days when we finish training so its either accept that pilots are not seen as movie stars any more and get on with starting a decent career or bitch and moan on here and get a job at McDonnalds (where i worked during college)
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these old magical fully paid courses by the airline are all but gone now
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First job - joined company with 3 year tapering bond to cover type rating and JOC.
Paid 100% salary from day one. I say again - no reduced salary. The same pay whether you join with or without a type rating.
And that was less than a year ago.
Happy New Year from an old boy.
Paid 100% salary from day one. I say again - no reduced salary. The same pay whether you join with or without a type rating.
And that was less than a year ago.
Happy New Year from an old boy.
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the second you start flying an aircraft for a airline which carries passengers you should be getting paid. and this includes the type rating, If your good enough someone will pay for your type rating, and pay you whilst your doing it. DONT PAY TO FLY
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We are in difficult times and the turmoil of poorer terms and conditions are being felt higher up the food chain. It is not the younger and newer members to the industry that are lowering the lowest common denominator. I recently applied for a contract job (I am a Capt) and the rug has nearly been pulled from under my feet and those of my fellow applicants due to a group of Pilots from Eastern Europe who have offered to work for far less money. However when you take into account their living expenses - my relatively modest mortgage in the UK probably is astronomical in comparison so they probably don't need the salary that I would expect.
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due to a group of Pilots from Eastern Europe
I think it's all sinusoidal, the fact is that we're having a very times now, I don't know if ever there were so many pilots ready to go... almost for a direct entry, without a job, but... The loans are harder to get nowadays, people don't get encouraged by the situation, they won't go for CPL untill times get better, then there'll be a time for us
to go take the right seat and it will all start again, airlines will be short on pilots, people will go training. The other good thing about it all is that less people will go to airlines with TR also due to worst loan situation (imagine an over-bonded guy willing to take another with nice %), so we might expect a slight improvement in the next few months
at least in that area.I'm not an economist but one told me that
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Nah not Poland... bit further south from where you are! Funny thing is that these guys who are willing to work for peanuts are probably old and experienced guys! It is just interesting that the morals of some of our experienced peers have been eroded and everyone thinks that it is only those who start out in this game are to blame for watering down the terms and conditions!
