Salt in an already deep wound!

[Superpilot]

Mark my words now. Even when the financial crisis is over you won't be able to get a Jet or Turboprop job without paying for a type rating (plus maybe some line training). This is already a reality in most cases but it will be 'the way' when the job market opens again. There has already been an explosion in the number of firms offering TRs and these firms are often partnered with the airlines or run by friends of people in high places (flight crew recruitment). In some ways there are advantages for airlines to use such companies.

For some years now many other industries have been using agencies to help recruit graduates for new positions. Direct hire for IT related jobs is almost unheard of. We are going to see this ever increasing trend within the airline wannabe world too and it'll be a success because the airlines will want to totally outsource all their training needs (saving cost and reducing burden upon themselves).

Might as well ditch any plan you might have of doing an integrated course now. Instead, look to do an intensive modular course (starting in about a year) at half the price and then leave yourself £20-30k for a TR. Or be a complete fool and deliberately spend £60-80k (depending on interest) on an integrated knowing that you'll need to spend £20-30k on a TR. Yes, there are people who go into this expecting to do just that!

Yes it's a sad and expensive reality but it's due to our capitalist nature which without we wouldn't have these job opportunities anyway! I've been converted for sure. Expecting to pay for a TR within the next 12 months.

[Prophead]

As has been said on another thread, there is not much difference between paying for your own type and being bonded on a low salary because the airline has paid it.

I think alot of people would rather pay, at least that way there not tied to one employer for years and could continue in a high paid job right up until the switch to the airlines. Alot of newly qualified fATPL's are moving from other well paid careers and have mortgage family etc. It just isnt possible for these people to work for a low salary.

There would however need to be some kind of a job offer in place before starting a TR course.

[Skippy129]

Just to clarify, i wasn't suggesting completely free type ratings! I fully agree with the bonding principle, but please airlines consider the situations of these people, they have just spent a hugh amount of capital and in some cases it may be impossible to find further funding. The banks do not want to know. I have the emails from HSBC to prove it!

I too can clearly see that this is not one of their concerns because if i cant find the cash, the next newly qualified pilot will from somewhere. Your right, this is the way the industry will go to "minimise their risk" or whatever excuse they which to flag it under. The thing is whilst i understand they too are a business and trying to maximise profit, how much more risk is there when we have come this far.

Im sure there were very similar threads after 9/11 about "What do you mean there is no more sponsorship schemes"

Progress I guess!

[Bealzebub]

Did you miss the bit where I said:

You now have a serious number of very experienced pilots who are prepared to accept the reduced and weakened terms on offer. Why would most airlines now even bother to look at anybody with 250 hours, when for the same money you can get all the experience and "ready to go" pilots that you could ever want, all assuming they do actually want anybody at all!

The risk is enormous if you have a debt that you are relying on a potential jet job to service. As you might have noticed the banks have become very reluctant to even lend to each other, much less those with a high risk ambition with currently poor prospects.

[mikehammer]

Also the point was more about the companies taking advantage out of newly qualified pilots by demanding more spending. My point is that this attitude needs to be stopped as soon as possible. Furthermore, these attitudes are being driven by the FTO's once they have their studends (parents or the banks) hard earned cash

I agree but how?

Employers look for commitment and determination to succeed

Could be true, but my employer looked for more than 500 hours, some interesting flying (a bit of survey work, lots of photo work) and availability next Monday for the type rating. However

if you leave the aviation loop, I suspect it will be very difficult to rejoin

is true. Very true.

[corsair]

Skippy I don't mean to be patronising or putting you down. But I think you are a good example of the new breed of newly trained pilot who was, not so much conned as misled by recent trends in recruitment and training. You say you have learned but in effect you are still a little naive.

I like so many people completed my training in the summer 08 and ever since haven’t had a decent sniff of a job especially in the UK. I completed my training with high pass rates and first time passes in all but my IR which was a second time pass.

From previous experience, come back and make that statement when it's 2010 or 2013. It really could be that long before you find yourself in the right seat of an airliner. In the past this kind of timescale was commonplace and indeed still is. By then you will be justified in complaining.

If you hadn't mentioned you were on an integrated course. I would have guessed it because of the fact you mention your high pass rates and first time passes. That seems to be common among integrated graduates and obviously seems to have been indoctrinated into them by the FTO. That is a good thing but is only relevant in the good old days when an airline would contact a school and ask them to forward details of the cream of the crop. At this point it's mostly irrelevant, although five attempts at an IR might look bad.

but please airlines consider the situations of these people, they have just spent a hugh amount of capital and in some cases it may be impossible to find further funding. The banks do not want to know. I have the emails from HSBC to prove it!

Why should they care about your financial commitment? Please understand, airlines are businesses. They need to make money and they owe you nothing. While individuals in the airlines can sympathise, even empathise because they were in the same position once. But as a company, they have no interest in furthering your dream at their expense. If you can't come up with the cash. They will cry 'Next' and hire the next in line instead. It's the simple brutal truth.

Sorry, if I come across as harsh. I don't want to be. It's just the way it is. But listen, don't get too worked up about it. Your day will come. Keep current, try and get some kind of flying and wait out the storm. Almost all of my contemporaries eventually got more or less what they wanted. Sometimes it took years. Five years was common, six years. One even quit flying for ten years, decided to get his licence back. Was offered a GA job before he renewed it and then ended in an airline job a year later. All told it took him twenty years.

You have plenty of time.

[avrodamo]

I know it does not help now, but personally this has all the makings of a significant pilot shortage in the distant future. As things stand now you have pretty much no chance of securing any flying position with an airline or air taxi company. The credit crunch situaion will however impact heavily on pilot training. I would say that almost every person i trained with, and myself included borrowed the cash needed for training on loans, re-mortgages and credit cards. That is quite simply not going to be available, and therefore will have an impact on newly trained pilots coming through the system. There has already been threads on Prune where students are finding it impossible to secure funds.
When all this does finally start coming good, and it will, there will be a dip in the number of pilots available, and im sure you will secure the position you want. In the meantime you have to keep current. If possible do the FI course. Getting the job seems to be harder than getting the licence!
The very best of luck

[Callsign Kilo]

I was reading a copy of a well known GA magazine and noticed a section with a title along the lines of 'Do yo want to become an Airline Pilot.' This was a recent edition (Nov 2008) and I couldn't believe some of the garbage being banded about, especially when you consider the current economic climate. One audacious boast came from the head of spin from Oxford, suggesting that now was the time to throw 70K their way. His advice was train in the downturn and you will be best set for the upturn. He still thought that the majority of his cadets would be employed. Unfortunately his mystic meg crystal ball was unable to predict when or by whom.

This sort of sh1t has always got my back up, yet at the same time so has the naivity of some of the people who sign up to these courses. I would consider paying to go along to one of their 'open days' to see what they are saying in regards to today's climate. I understand they are businesses, how some of their speal is damn right irresponsible.

[eikido]

1. Excellent thread and a standing ovation to mr Bealzebub. Wonderful post. Simply wonderful.

2. I haven't started training yet but i never expected to get a first job on a jet. A job that i really want is as a Flight Instructor. However i feel even these jobs are getting difficult to get these days. Anyone can comment on that? Don't you people think most newly graduates will realize that FI is the way to go and we will soon also have more instructors than jobs?

Eikido

[Rollerboy]

This is the first useful thread with some excellent advice I have seen in a long time on this forum. The advice from previous posters should be used by both yourself and others involved in this decision making process.

I personally believe the future for airlines and FTO's is very uncertain at this precise moment in time. Even BALPA in their latest update have highlighted this fact, they also incidently forsee possibly the end of the SSTR in long term sight.

You completed training this year with what sounds like good results but that doesn't mean you will walk into a job. I realise that paying for a further FI rating may break the bank but the sound advice on this sight seems to advocate an instructors rating over all else. I would echo this advice as the FI rating allows you to at least continue flying and gaining hours waiting for the upturn. However I am a little worried that the credit crunch is affecting flight instructing that remains to be seen. Have any current instructors got any figures?

I faced the same problems as you some years ago and aviation delt me many upsetting blows CTC for one. I picked myself up and completed an FI course but didn't get the chance to instruct as I luckily, and I say luckily was offered an airline job. This job would not have been offered had I not completed the FI course. I am now flying regularly and training for my airline as a FO Ground Training Instructor another job that may not have been offered without the FI qualification.

What I am trying to say is bite the bullet and go for the FI rating gain some hours PM me if you want I may be able to help.

Roller

[Rhodes13]

To the original thread starter the overwhelming sense I got from your posting was a complete lack of planning. Whilst its crap that you are in the position you are now in, one has to wonder where the backup plans were?

Did you ever look into the fact that once you finished training you would have to stump up more money for additional training? Afterall I assume you knew you would be dumped onto the market with the barest of qualifications? Where were the what ifs? You now say you dont have the money to complete further training but surely if you had done some prior planning you would have budgeted for the worst case scenario and planned accordingly/ chosen a different course of action?

I also like the quote by someone else saying that people have families to feed and/ or have left high paying jobs to persue "their dream". Does this make them more entitled to gain entry to a jet job? I read the posts of the wannabes and I am amazed at the naivety diplayed by otherwise normal and sane people.

Unfortunately the world is full of starry eyed wannabe's that have followed what the perceive to be an easy way to a glamourous/ well paying job and aren't prepared to face the reality that dreams don't always come true. The simple fact is that not everyone that gets a pilots license will end up getting a job. Only the very few go onto make it especially in these tough times!

The doesnt exempt the FTO's from morally questionable tactics although as usual its buyer beware and always go into these things with your eyes wide wide open.

[Skippy129]

Stating that i didn't plan is a bit rich as you are not fully aware of my personal situation, perhaps you have gone of a bit half cocked?

Unfortunately my backup plans weren't fully stuck to by my previous employer. having had 4 1/2 years service in my former professional career, they refused to re-employ me.

In some respects though you are correct, i read into the training and the posibilities and made my choices perhaps somewhat blinded by the lights but in the good faith that Quote "95% of our students successfully secure jobs within six months of graduation"....I would now say that the glaring inadmission in that statement is the words flying job!!!!

[no sponsor]

There was a post not so long ago about the 'Good Times' and recruitment. As I said in that thread, the good times were, and are, a bit of a myth. It has always been very difficult to secure an airline position, unless you know someone or strike lucky (right place at the right minute). It took me 18 months - in the 'Good Times'. I had one interview in all that time. One opportunity to make it at my interview and sim ride. Hundreds of unanswered emails, phone messages, web applications and CVs.

CTC and the like made it appear very easy. Give them 70K, and 18 months down the line you would be sitting in a Airbus A319 at EasyJet - it was that easy, simply pass the selection tests, fill out the loan application - bingo a new career where you look cool in sunglasses! Those days were always going to come to an end. The reality was that when airlines stopped recruiting - economy or no outstanding aircraft orders - it would all come to a grinding halt.

My airline has recently changed our T&Cs so we can all work a bit harder and save on recruiting any more people for next year - we only work 650hrs a year (flying that is) so they can squeeze a bit more out of the system. I guess others will do the same.

One word of warning about paying for line training. I assume you maybe referring to the Air Asia scheme?

A bod came to us after having almost 800hrs on a 737 for a North African operator. He failed his line training. It appeared that this operator simply regarded their F/Os as bag carriers and flap/gear operators. Not all line training is equal, and not all parts of the world treat their F/Os as one might expect. Asia is very different, and you need good line trainers to make you into a good F/O - a TR doesn't do it. So you may get your 1000hrs, but you really need to be flying the aircraft as PF to get the right sort of experience.

[BWFiftyworld]

Rhodes - I think your views are somewhat of an injustice not only to Skippy but to many of your fellow pilots. There may well be "starry eyed" youngsters who feel let down, but my experience of talking to a number of pilots and reading these pages is that most who pursue the career have done their research, and accept the vagaries of the business - certainly we did. Anybody who can pass 14 ATPL exams in 6 months, and get to to their fATPL with the required ME/IR deserves my respect, irrespective of how they got there. I think that BALPA could perhaps do more to assist in the SSTR debate. In addition, it is a great shame that RYR have been allowed to get away with their amoral practices for so long..but if you read M O'L's biography, you will understand why they have managed to do so..! I wish you all well - the public only seem to understand what is involved in your training when there is an "incident". Skippy - stick with it - we are still being told that the annual global requirement for new pilots is into 5 figures...it will come back.

[Prophead]

Rhodes,

You wrote,

'I also like the quote by someone else saying that people have families to feed and/ or have left high paying jobs to persue "their dream". Does this make them more entitled to gain entry to a jet job?'

I suggest you reread my post as this is not what i was saying at all. I was merely saying that some people would rather pay up front for a TR than be bonded on a low salary. I think we all agree though that SSTR's should come to an end. Whether they will is another matter.

[Superpilot]

...the good times were, and are, a bit of a myth.

Entirely agree with 'No Sponsor'. There has never been an easy time for newbies in terms of getting a Jet/TP job at relatively low cost. A handful of lucky sods, who having done a modular, got their TRs paid for (including you No Sponsor!) but this was always a rarity and practically unheard of in the last 2 years.

Lets take a look at the cadets of the BA sponsorship for example, they always started on a low salary. Basic of £28k in May 2001 when I applied. I believe there was a difference between salary scales for cadets and DEPs for 5 years with the net difference being close to £60k (the alledged amount it cost BA to train them!). The logical would ask here, what "sponsorship"? CTC, again the cadets were flying for 6 months at £1,000 p/m (not even from the airline) and got paid a reduced salary for a number of years.

For the majority, their type rating always gets funded through their own pockets. It's how and when this money leaves your pocket that often disguises the facts. It's always been like this, only difference now is we live in an era where 'up front' payments are required and this is linked to my point above - TR training is being outsourced more and more and these companies need a decent cash flow to keep them running and remain a healthy choice for their partner airlines.

[no sponsor]

I forgot to add one thing. The great thing about the Air Asia scheme would be the girls

There always is a silver lining...

[Desk-pilot]

Some thoughts from someone who has been there

Firstly I'd like to say you have my genuine sympathy for this situation - the good thing (unlike in my case) is that you funded the integrated course with savings not loans.

Secondly, I'd like to correct a view that BA is the only 'free' type rating provider - Flybe also pay your type rating and bond you and they seem to like mature low hours guys and often hire many of them - I'm sure there are others too -Monarch etc when they are recruiting.

Thirdly when I found myself in a similar situation to you I have to admit I felt rather bitter. The simple fact is that the schools train too many pilots and this contrasts with many degree courses where most reasonably industrious and capable graduates can expect to get a job because the numbers of people doing courses bears some relation to the number of jobs on offer.

Now, my reaction to the situation of finding myself with no flying job and a need to pay my mortgage was I fell back on my previous career - it's the one big benefit mature candidates have. I have to say that my despondency lifted greatly when I started working as an IT contractor for more money than I had ever earned in my life! I was literally within a few months of losing the house and everything and with a new born baby it was a very difficult time. They say money doesn't buy you happiness but it sure bought me some at that time - I started paying back the loans, remortgaged, treated the wife to a new (secondhand) car, went on holiday for the first time in about 4 years and sat on a beach reading a James Bond novel rather than ATPL theory! Life was actually pretty good.

After a little while I started hiring commercial simulators to keep current though I even went through a period where I stopped applying for flying jobs because I just couldn't face it anymore and chose to spend more time with the family and my new child. In the meantime I found a new appreciation for the regular hours of IT, pleasant lunches with colleagues or friends and ability to nip to HMV at lunchtime and buy a DVD without having to phone the bank first!!

Eventually some 18 months down the line I did obtain an airline job. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I found that constantly focussing on how much I desperately wanted to fly just made me feel depressed so I sort of sidestepped it and looked for pleasure elsewhere - family, holidays - whatever. I took the view that there are many ways of being happy in this life and flying is just one of them so I focussed on some of the others. After the intense effort of the course I found that very therapeutic.

It's not really the conventional wisdom, but it worked for me. I had already decided by the way that I couldn't put the family through any further misery for my dream so paid type ratings were out as was taking any really underpaid flying job for £6k a year or whatever. I drew a line in the sand after the MCC and decided personally that was the end of the line for me and my family. As a well paid IT contractor paying for occasional sim sessions for currency and punting around in a PA28 for fun wasn't a big expense.

I wish all of you well and hope this rather different approach helps you feel a bit better about things - now get out there and find some bloody pleasure elsewhere and if you are absolutely skint go and do something imaginitive with your nubile girlfriend for a while - at least that's free!

Desk-pilot

[expedite08]

Desk-pilot,

I've been a member of Prune for a few years now, and I can honestly say that is one of the best posts I have seen! Makes a lot of sense and should be adopted by many. Flying will come when the time is right and dont sacrifice everything you have for it! ( you will have a very miserable life!) At the end of the day its a job!

[119.35]

Here, here! Brilliant post! Thanks for taking the time to write and share it with us.