Flybe/Cabair 2009 Part-Sponsorship
Join Date: Apr 2004
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I read somewhere on this thread they are taking on 12 people in total which is pretty good for this kind of scheme.
The Pilap tests are really the only part you can't do a lot of revision for, thats really more the natural ability part of the assessments, i'm going to be concentrating more on the maths/physics side of things as it's been a while since i've thought about using that stuff.
The Pilap tests are really the only part you can't do a lot of revision for, thats really more the natural ability part of the assessments, i'm going to be concentrating more on the maths/physics side of things as it's been a while since i've thought about using that stuff.
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I just finished my A-levels in june so im hoping my maths and physics will still be pretty fresh in my head! I was reading some threads about software that you can practice aptitude tests on so im not sure whether to get that or not.
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Vortex Thing:
1) I am seeking clarification on salary - particularly whether the salary numbers per the website take into account any loan repayments.
2) I do not appreciate your clown-like comments - even if you could construct a sentence.
3) If the salary is ~ £25k (remember VT - that's gross) and then you have to make loan repayments, that is very much below your national average numbers (remember VT - very few people earning the national average wage have such a sizeable career loan).
4) I do appreciate some of the benefits of such schemes but neither myself nor anyone else here, has asked for your idiotic view.
5) Let's also not forget that Cabair and Flybe will also do very well out of this arrangement so I'm struggling with why I "should be eternally grateful." Therefore, for me to ask for salary confirmation, when effectively applying for a job, is perfectly reasonable. Are you capable of understanding any of this in the context of signing-up for 5 years and paying ~£50k+?
1) I am seeking clarification on salary - particularly whether the salary numbers per the website take into account any loan repayments.
2) I do not appreciate your clown-like comments - even if you could construct a sentence.
3) If the salary is ~ £25k (remember VT - that's gross) and then you have to make loan repayments, that is very much below your national average numbers (remember VT - very few people earning the national average wage have such a sizeable career loan).
4) I do appreciate some of the benefits of such schemes but neither myself nor anyone else here, has asked for your idiotic view.
5) Let's also not forget that Cabair and Flybe will also do very well out of this arrangement so I'm struggling with why I "should be eternally grateful." Therefore, for me to ask for salary confirmation, when effectively applying for a job, is perfectly reasonable. Are you capable of understanding any of this in the context of signing-up for 5 years and paying ~£50k+?
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The thing to remember about these schemes is that it suits the airline. They are not out to do pilot candidates any favours. Not that I have any objection to them. They help people get on the first rung of the ladder.
But the airline knows that most will move on in due course to bigger aircraft, jets or whatever. FlyBe is a starter job for most pilots. When the pilot wants to move on they have to pay what they owe. The airline has the advantage of young hand picked candidates who owe them money and feel a certain loyalty to the company because they were selected and therefore will probably stay a bit longer than a more experienced pilot who was only bonded for the cost of a type rating.
Aer Arann has a slightly different spin. You pay for the type rating and they promise to pay you back in five years time, knowing in their heart of hearts that you will be long since gone by then. Ryanair, of course don't even pretend.
Some of you guys need to lose the notion that airlines should be fairer in their recruitment of pilots. Puleezz..... airlines are businesses. Flight schools are businesses. FlyBe are not doing this to help pilots find jobs. They want your money and they want to make money from you. Simple as that.
I still think it's a good scheme though. Suits both parties most of the time.
But the airline knows that most will move on in due course to bigger aircraft, jets or whatever. FlyBe is a starter job for most pilots. When the pilot wants to move on they have to pay what they owe. The airline has the advantage of young hand picked candidates who owe them money and feel a certain loyalty to the company because they were selected and therefore will probably stay a bit longer than a more experienced pilot who was only bonded for the cost of a type rating.
Aer Arann has a slightly different spin. You pay for the type rating and they promise to pay you back in five years time, knowing in their heart of hearts that you will be long since gone by then. Ryanair, of course don't even pretend.
Some of you guys need to lose the notion that airlines should be fairer in their recruitment of pilots. Puleezz..... airlines are businesses. Flight schools are businesses. FlyBe are not doing this to help pilots find jobs. They want your money and they want to make money from you. Simple as that.
I still think it's a good scheme though. Suits both parties most of the time.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Stop bleating it's still a gift.
FANS a few corrections.
1) Sorry but yes you and everyone on this forum has asked for my views. I am a forum member and am entitled to air my views as are you. That is why it is called a forum.
2) I do not remember getting my comments to juggle, ride a unicycle or perform any acts so perhaps you could explain why they are clown like. I hardly think that my grammar warrants half as much correction as your ability to write a convincing argument.
3) I am more than aware of the difference between gross and net. I am also aware that it is difficult to pay back loans when you have little or even no money. A few years ago I had over £100k of debt, I managed to self fund a type rating whilst I earnt nothing, pay for my food, accomodation and travel to complete the type rating and then I worked for Ryanair earning less than £600 per month having funded all of my training and my own type rating and we even got to pay our own medical, uniforms, ID card and licencing. Now I do not want this to turn into a should I or shouldn't have gone the Ryanair route the point is in this context it is hardly likely that having been there done it and come through the other end that my views can be considered idiotic except by someone like yourself.
During the period of having this debt I also had to contribute half of a £250k mortgage and the running of our home alongside my wife.
In your situation I personally would happily sign a 10 year bond. The longer the bond the better your job security! If you are not sure of the value of job security ask Zoom, Maxjet, EOS, XL, etc pilots what job security means!
So what if Flybe and Cabair make a fortune out of you they are businesses and are not being run for your benefit, you still have a job and having been unemployed I can vouch for the fact that having any job is better under any terms and conditions than not having one.
You say most people on the national average wage do not have sizeable loans to pay back. I beg to differ many people on the national average wage also have a national average mortgage. A mortgage is debt that you have to pay back just like any other loan. Before you start bleating that a mortgage is secured on equity and that tends to be an appreciating asset a) look at the property market and b) your career is an investment.
If you invest £100k now in your career in 20 years time when you earn £70k as a captain you can pay it back i.e. you get a return on your investment in the future for a few short years of hardship.
If you don't think that the hardship of living on £25k is worth it then don't apply for the scheme. I personally think that you are lucky that they pay you anything at all and think that you should be grateful for the opportunity to get enough experience to go and get a well paid job after a few years.
Why on earth do you think you are worth more than a junior HM Forces officer, trainee accountant, lawyer or junior doctor? You aren't get over it. Even if you started as late as 30yrs old with Flybe after the 5 yr bond you would have another 30years work to do before you retire AND you will hit the market with some 3500-4500hrs on TPs or jets. Gee what a hardship that will be to find gainful employment.
This is a gift, apply for it, take it if offered or step aside and let those of us who are in it for the flying offer newbies on this forum useful advice to help them do the career that I love, believe in and support and most non pilots out there dream of doing when they look out of their office windows.
I come on here to give advice to all on these forums if you don't like my advice don't take it but do not go attacking my grammar and calling me an idiot just because I do not write what you like. If you have a personal message then PM me but if not then just write why you think I am wrong and what your better view is.
VT
1) Sorry but yes you and everyone on this forum has asked for my views. I am a forum member and am entitled to air my views as are you. That is why it is called a forum.
2) I do not remember getting my comments to juggle, ride a unicycle or perform any acts so perhaps you could explain why they are clown like. I hardly think that my grammar warrants half as much correction as your ability to write a convincing argument.
3) I am more than aware of the difference between gross and net. I am also aware that it is difficult to pay back loans when you have little or even no money. A few years ago I had over £100k of debt, I managed to self fund a type rating whilst I earnt nothing, pay for my food, accomodation and travel to complete the type rating and then I worked for Ryanair earning less than £600 per month having funded all of my training and my own type rating and we even got to pay our own medical, uniforms, ID card and licencing. Now I do not want this to turn into a should I or shouldn't have gone the Ryanair route the point is in this context it is hardly likely that having been there done it and come through the other end that my views can be considered idiotic except by someone like yourself.
During the period of having this debt I also had to contribute half of a £250k mortgage and the running of our home alongside my wife.
In your situation I personally would happily sign a 10 year bond. The longer the bond the better your job security! If you are not sure of the value of job security ask Zoom, Maxjet, EOS, XL, etc pilots what job security means!
So what if Flybe and Cabair make a fortune out of you they are businesses and are not being run for your benefit, you still have a job and having been unemployed I can vouch for the fact that having any job is better under any terms and conditions than not having one.
You say most people on the national average wage do not have sizeable loans to pay back. I beg to differ many people on the national average wage also have a national average mortgage. A mortgage is debt that you have to pay back just like any other loan. Before you start bleating that a mortgage is secured on equity and that tends to be an appreciating asset a) look at the property market and b) your career is an investment.
If you invest £100k now in your career in 20 years time when you earn £70k as a captain you can pay it back i.e. you get a return on your investment in the future for a few short years of hardship.
If you don't think that the hardship of living on £25k is worth it then don't apply for the scheme. I personally think that you are lucky that they pay you anything at all and think that you should be grateful for the opportunity to get enough experience to go and get a well paid job after a few years.
Why on earth do you think you are worth more than a junior HM Forces officer, trainee accountant, lawyer or junior doctor? You aren't get over it. Even if you started as late as 30yrs old with Flybe after the 5 yr bond you would have another 30years work to do before you retire AND you will hit the market with some 3500-4500hrs on TPs or jets. Gee what a hardship that will be to find gainful employment.
This is a gift, apply for it, take it if offered or step aside and let those of us who are in it for the flying offer newbies on this forum useful advice to help them do the career that I love, believe in and support and most non pilots out there dream of doing when they look out of their office windows.
I come on here to give advice to all on these forums if you don't like my advice don't take it but do not go attacking my grammar and calling me an idiot just because I do not write what you like. If you have a personal message then PM me but if not then just write why you think I am wrong and what your better view is.
VT
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Vortex..
Far to many people here dont realise how bloody lucky they are to get offered these places.. heard a story recently about a fella that did RYR assmnt, got accepted then tunrned it down as he decided it was to expensive.. I immediately thought, to$$er.. why apply in the first place.
DPT
Far to many people here dont realise how bloody lucky they are to get offered these places.. heard a story recently about a fella that did RYR assmnt, got accepted then tunrned it down as he decided it was to expensive.. I immediately thought, to$$er.. why apply in the first place.
DPT
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ads212 - Cabair's website used to have some example Qns for the maths & physics, suggest you do some digging there ans could try a search here. In my experience (albeit not at Cabair) it was about GCSE level required.
This must be about the only scheme left now isn't it? How things have changed in the last year. Best of luck to all who go for it
. BM
This must be about the only scheme left now isn't it? How things have changed in the last year. Best of luck to all who go for it
. BM
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VT
1) No - this forum does not ask for your views, you (like everyone else) is merely entitled to express them. A subtle but important difference.
2) Personal circumstance are always interesting to hear and yours clearly illustrate that it is an extremely tough industry and that you need to look after number one. So let us not forget us how this debate begun - I asked what the starting salary was and was then told I needed to "get more perpective...be eternally grateful they even bother."
I am very aware of the benefits of this scheme but want to know what the starting salary is for people on this scheme in order to make an informed decision to my personal circumstances. I find it unbelievable that when asking for this simple bit of information, I get a rant on how this compares to national average salaries/FI's earning £10k pa/what salaries families are living and on and on and on.
I am well aware of all of the above points. Equally, I am only too well aware of job security in this industry without asking those unfortunate pilots at Zoom and co. This is what I mean by clown-like comments.
Again, on mortgage debt you completely miss the point. I was asking how many people on average salaries have a CAREER loan of £50k+, not a mortgage. A mortgage is completely different - at the end of the day, you have to live somewhere so you're either paying a mortgage or rent. Equally, I would not bleat on about property being an appreciating asset - for most people, it is only somewhere to live and should never be looked at as an investment (unless a second home etc).
You say "If you don't think the hardship of living on £25k is worth it, don't apply". Again - it's only when I know what the salary actually is that I can make this call and that was the only purpose of my question. It was not to get lectured on eveything else.
I do not think I am worth more than an HM officer/Dr/accountant - I was a trainee accountant (I'll look forward to your next remark on this) but the difference was I did not pay a penny for my training. And yes, I know this is a completely different industry.
If you think you are lucky they pay you anything at all, remember that this company made a £35 million profit last year and that you are doing what is at the end of the day, a job to help them make more cash.
This is not a gift, it is a commercial arrangement and it's important that people are properly informed before embarking on this. As I'm sure you can understand, the novelty of flying a great aircraft would soon rub off if you were really struggling to make ends meat and did not have such a supportive partner.
I do not write this because I do not like what you write, but for a very simple reason. I have asked about the starting salary for this scheme and have been subject to a barrage of rants - and how lucky we all are that the kind people at Flybe offer this scheme and then actually pay us to do a job. For the avoidance of doubt, I am acutely aware of the benefits of this scheme and how extremely difficult it is to get that first start but I just wanted to know one fact.
1) No - this forum does not ask for your views, you (like everyone else) is merely entitled to express them. A subtle but important difference.
2) Personal circumstance are always interesting to hear and yours clearly illustrate that it is an extremely tough industry and that you need to look after number one. So let us not forget us how this debate begun - I asked what the starting salary was and was then told I needed to "get more perpective...be eternally grateful they even bother."
I am very aware of the benefits of this scheme but want to know what the starting salary is for people on this scheme in order to make an informed decision to my personal circumstances. I find it unbelievable that when asking for this simple bit of information, I get a rant on how this compares to national average salaries/FI's earning £10k pa/what salaries families are living and on and on and on.
I am well aware of all of the above points. Equally, I am only too well aware of job security in this industry without asking those unfortunate pilots at Zoom and co. This is what I mean by clown-like comments.
Again, on mortgage debt you completely miss the point. I was asking how many people on average salaries have a CAREER loan of £50k+, not a mortgage. A mortgage is completely different - at the end of the day, you have to live somewhere so you're either paying a mortgage or rent. Equally, I would not bleat on about property being an appreciating asset - for most people, it is only somewhere to live and should never be looked at as an investment (unless a second home etc).
You say "If you don't think the hardship of living on £25k is worth it, don't apply". Again - it's only when I know what the salary actually is that I can make this call and that was the only purpose of my question. It was not to get lectured on eveything else.
I do not think I am worth more than an HM officer/Dr/accountant - I was a trainee accountant (I'll look forward to your next remark on this) but the difference was I did not pay a penny for my training. And yes, I know this is a completely different industry.
If you think you are lucky they pay you anything at all, remember that this company made a £35 million profit last year and that you are doing what is at the end of the day, a job to help them make more cash.
This is not a gift, it is a commercial arrangement and it's important that people are properly informed before embarking on this. As I'm sure you can understand, the novelty of flying a great aircraft would soon rub off if you were really struggling to make ends meat and did not have such a supportive partner.
I do not write this because I do not like what you write, but for a very simple reason. I have asked about the starting salary for this scheme and have been subject to a barrage of rants - and how lucky we all are that the kind people at Flybe offer this scheme and then actually pay us to do a job. For the avoidance of doubt, I am acutely aware of the benefits of this scheme and how extremely difficult it is to get that first start but I just wanted to know one fact.
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FANS give it up.
FANS You mention that you were a trainee accountant please elaborate. ACA, ACCA, CIMA, CTA I would be interested to know why you did not complete your training and which firm you were with feel free to PM if you are too embarrassed to carry out this discussion in public.
Lets be honest there is no difference between me being invited to express or just actually expressing my views in a public forum. If I want to express my views I will if you don't like them unlucky.
You seem to have a think about clowns. Something from your childhood perhaps...
Re mortgages they are not completely different at all debt is debt period. If you wish to believe otherwise then you need to look up the words capitalization, liquidity and debt in a dictionary. It doesn't matter what you bought with the proceeds of the loan the fact is you borrow money to pay for something that you can not or do not want to afford and then you pay it back at an agreed rate over an agreed period. What is the difference pray tell? Does it make you feel better to dress it up as something else?
You asked if the £25k was gross or net. Have you ever seen a job advert that tells you your net salary in this country? Ergo IMHO this is a fairly amateurish question as with the exception of a paper round pretty much every employee since school/uni expects that salary automatically means gross. Now even if it wasn't gross the difference at that sort of level is a few hundred pounds a month. It just isn't materially relevant in the context of this thread. If you are making the decision as to whether you can or cannot afford to take this scheme should you be successful and 200-300 pounds sways it then you really shouldn't be even considering it.
If you want to understand materiality in my experience accountants regularly agree a set of accounts to be balanced with discrepancies in millions. If you were looking over Vodafone's balance sheet and found a £1.4million error it would not be material. If on the other hand you were looking over Mrs Miggins pie shop accounts £10 may be relevant.
£25k gross or net is an insignificant difference and if it isn't then you cant afford to take the job and should go back to finishing your training as an accountant. There is a massive shortage out there and hence this is why even the Big 4 pay for everything whilst they pay you to work.
Suggest you look up Porter's 5 Forces and pay attention to the bits marked supply and demand.
I don't care if the company made £35m or £35 bn last year. They are a business their job is to make money! I don't care if they make it by exploiting me and/or you they do not force us to work there you can say no. You either want the job or you don't what is the problem here. I have a job in an airline and I got it the hard way, I am offering you the benefit of my experience. You can take it or leave it but why keep coming back as to why you agree with my advice.
You say you just wanted to know one thing. Perhaps if you had put a closed question then your wish would have been granted. You asked if you were missing something. You were you appeared to me to be missing the point that this is a gift horse!
Lets be honest there is no difference between me being invited to express or just actually expressing my views in a public forum. If I want to express my views I will if you don't like them unlucky.
You seem to have a think about clowns. Something from your childhood perhaps...
Re mortgages they are not completely different at all debt is debt period. If you wish to believe otherwise then you need to look up the words capitalization, liquidity and debt in a dictionary. It doesn't matter what you bought with the proceeds of the loan the fact is you borrow money to pay for something that you can not or do not want to afford and then you pay it back at an agreed rate over an agreed period. What is the difference pray tell? Does it make you feel better to dress it up as something else?
You asked if the £25k was gross or net. Have you ever seen a job advert that tells you your net salary in this country? Ergo IMHO this is a fairly amateurish question as with the exception of a paper round pretty much every employee since school/uni expects that salary automatically means gross. Now even if it wasn't gross the difference at that sort of level is a few hundred pounds a month. It just isn't materially relevant in the context of this thread. If you are making the decision as to whether you can or cannot afford to take this scheme should you be successful and 200-300 pounds sways it then you really shouldn't be even considering it.
If you want to understand materiality in my experience accountants regularly agree a set of accounts to be balanced with discrepancies in millions. If you were looking over Vodafone's balance sheet and found a £1.4million error it would not be material. If on the other hand you were looking over Mrs Miggins pie shop accounts £10 may be relevant.
£25k gross or net is an insignificant difference and if it isn't then you cant afford to take the job and should go back to finishing your training as an accountant. There is a massive shortage out there and hence this is why even the Big 4 pay for everything whilst they pay you to work.
Suggest you look up Porter's 5 Forces and pay attention to the bits marked supply and demand.
I don't care if the company made £35m or £35 bn last year. They are a business their job is to make money! I don't care if they make it by exploiting me and/or you they do not force us to work there you can say no. You either want the job or you don't what is the problem here. I have a job in an airline and I got it the hard way, I am offering you the benefit of my experience. You can take it or leave it but why keep coming back as to why you agree with my advice.
£25k pa and then paying back loans after tax seems to give very very little per month or am I missing something?
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Blimey! Why use one word when 300 will do huh? and I thought I liked the sound of my own voice!!! Move on with your lives fellas, there must be something more interesting to do like watching paint dry etc or of course you could subject us to some more of your personal essays to each other...
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So Stage 2 was relatively straight forward. Maths and Physics test.
The Pilapt is pretty good at filtering out prats that do not know their left and rights (but are academically clever).
I just finished Phase 3. I thought it was more intense than it needed to be.
Tricky questions. I still cannot find a grounded answer for the diff between a Capt and First Officer if the FO is just as competent as the Captain. Hmmm, is it not just the fact that the Captain has the deciding decision.??
How did you others find it - am I alone on this?
Do all groups get the same discussion ?
S
The Pilapt is pretty good at filtering out prats that do not know their left and rights (but are academically clever).
I just finished Phase 3. I thought it was more intense than it needed to be.
Tricky questions. I still cannot find a grounded answer for the diff between a Capt and First Officer if the FO is just as competent as the Captain. Hmmm, is it not just the fact that the Captain has the deciding decision.??
How did you others find it - am I alone on this?
Do all groups get the same discussion ?
S
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The difference between a captain and first officer
1) The captain has more stripes and earns more money.
2) If it's cold and/or wet, the FO does the walkround.
3) If the FMS is incorrectly programmed, it shall be the FO's fault.
4) The captain gets first dibs at the crew food (he's welcome to it actually).
5) Autopilot failures when captain is PF may well result in control being handed to the FO "to give you some practice." Especially if it's a bit turbulent.
6) Captains do not mis-hear ATC instructions - the controller should speak more clearly.
7) Captains never select 'DIRECT TO' then forget to engage LNAV, they are merely waiting to see if the FO has spotted their deliberate mistake.
8) The captain sits in the front of the taxi, the FO sits in the back, squeezed between two cabin crew. (I quite like this one).
Do I get the job?
2) If it's cold and/or wet, the FO does the walkround.
3) If the FMS is incorrectly programmed, it shall be the FO's fault.
4) The captain gets first dibs at the crew food (he's welcome to it actually).
5) Autopilot failures when captain is PF may well result in control being handed to the FO "to give you some practice." Especially if it's a bit turbulent.
6) Captains do not mis-hear ATC instructions - the controller should speak more clearly.
7) Captains never select 'DIRECT TO' then forget to engage LNAV, they are merely waiting to see if the FO has spotted their deliberate mistake.
8) The captain sits in the front of the taxi, the FO sits in the back, squeezed between two cabin crew. (I quite like this one).
Do I get the job?
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Look G SXTY (my boy!)
There are only the two rules you young assistants need to remember;
1) The captain is always right
2) If the captain is wrong, rule 1 applies.
Have you not heard of CRM? (Captain's right mate)
And if there are two male cabin crew in the taxi ?
But you have made a good start so you can have the job
There are only the two rules you young assistants need to remember;
1) The captain is always right
2) If the captain is wrong, rule 1 applies.
Have you not heard of CRM? (Captain's right mate)
And if there are two male cabin crew in the taxi ?
But you have made a good start so you can have the job