Pay to fly ?
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Pay to fly ?
How do you guys see the possibility of a future (not so future then...) where all non-experienced pilots will have to pay to fly for the first 1-2 years ?
It's something already happening here in Italy : after all the pain of passing the exams and paid your training expenses, some italian carrers ask you to pay for your TR some 40-50K euro (all at once), assuring you just a 100 hours on the type or some 40 legs. You have no guarantee you'll be hired.
After the training of course you'll probably get off the plane to leave the right seat to another newbie and others 40-50K euro to come into the cash of the airline. The airline will always find some kiddos who pay 40-50K euro cash to put their butt on the beast...
How do you guys evaluate this policy ? Is it something you think will happen to others airlines as well in Europe ? How most of new pilots deal with this problem of not having logged some 1500/2000 hrs total (of which at least 500 on turbine's) in order to skip this robbery ?
Ciao
It's something already happening here in Italy : after all the pain of passing the exams and paid your training expenses, some italian carrers ask you to pay for your TR some 40-50K euro (all at once), assuring you just a 100 hours on the type or some 40 legs. You have no guarantee you'll be hired.
After the training of course you'll probably get off the plane to leave the right seat to another newbie and others 40-50K euro to come into the cash of the airline. The airline will always find some kiddos who pay 40-50K euro cash to put their butt on the beast...
How do you guys evaluate this policy ? Is it something you think will happen to others airlines as well in Europe ? How most of new pilots deal with this problem of not having logged some 1500/2000 hrs total (of which at least 500 on turbine's) in order to skip this robbery ?
Ciao
My personal view that you should not be expected to pay to fly on a commercial flight. Isn't the point of the commercial license that you can make money for flying? Perhaps if the credit crunch bites harder and people cannot afford to pay to fly. It’s the sad truth that there will always be people willing to pay to fly, I can certainly understand peoples point of I've paid so much to get this far, what’s an extra bit going to matter. Perhaps if the majority of pilots were trained by airlines them selves from single engine all the way to the right hand seat. I never saw these days as I'm too young, but I wonder if they were better. I believe one alternative to paying for a type rating and hours is to instruct, however many say it is poorly paid and the hours not as useful as IFR flying jets. Sorry if I haven't directly answered your question but the truth is I am not sure what I personally would do. Guess I will find out in the next year though!
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We have arguably just come out of one of the biggest booms in airline recruiting in an age and yet there were people chewing off their arms to buy their way into a job.
Now we are heading into a recession and there will be a fraction of the jobs available for wannabes which makes you wonder what the next scam the likes of FR will come up with and more importantly how low your fellow colleagues will go to secure that elusive first job.
Now we are heading into a recession and there will be a fraction of the jobs available for wannabes which makes you wonder what the next scam the likes of FR will come up with and more importantly how low your fellow colleagues will go to secure that elusive first job.
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If it happened as you describe it, all FOs would be paying to fly until they get promoted. Why wouldn't the airline just keep churning people out with their few hundred hours, not offering them a job, then getting the next person in to do the same? It would be a good revenue earner for the airline because there seems to be an endless amount of people willing to pay to offer their services. Only Captains would ever have to be hired and paid for, and they could all be direct entry so all the FOs are there simply to 'build' hours then go so the next person can come in.
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Berksflyer,
Isnt the system you mention already in place with the likes of the recent ATP scheme. Buy an A320 rating and a couple of houndred hours and pay Easyjet to fly their aeroplane?? Effectively easyjet gets a free pilot, they only have to pay their captains. Line hours come to an end after a couple of months.....next desperate wannabee with cash walks in the door to replace the last one!
Isnt the system you mention already in place with the likes of the recent ATP scheme. Buy an A320 rating and a couple of houndred hours and pay Easyjet to fly their aeroplane?? Effectively easyjet gets a free pilot, they only have to pay their captains. Line hours come to an end after a couple of months.....next desperate wannabee with cash walks in the door to replace the last one!
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MIKECR,
Sure is. All they have to do is slowly expand that scheme until eventually no FOs are employees, and all pilots are free! That's assuming the obscene amount of money charged to work can also fund the captain they're flying with.
Sure is. All they have to do is slowly expand that scheme until eventually no FOs are employees, and all pilots are free! That's assuming the obscene amount of money charged to work can also fund the captain they're flying with.
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Isnt the system you mention already in place with the likes of the recent ATP scheme. Buy an A320 rating and a couple of houndred hours and pay Easyjet to fly their aeroplane?? Effectively easyjet gets a free pilot, they only have to pay their captains. Line hours come to an end after a couple of months.....next desperate wannabee with cash walks in the door to replace the last one!
I am coming to the end of my PPL.....I got a good job last year (which I hate) to fund me through my modular, and cant believe whats going on in the world. How many other potential pilots are out there 're-thinking' their ultimate ambition??
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Windsheer,
Perhaps a little pesemistic. Everythings is cyclic, the economies will flourish again, people will still travel, airlines will still fly and there will be no shortage of people who want to be pilots. Its an aspirrational career, it will always attract wannabee's, and money will still be available. By the time the oil dries up, alternative fuel sources will already be in place. A recent report on flightglobal already show Boeing experimenting(very succesfully) with alternative fuel.
Perhaps a little pesemistic. Everythings is cyclic, the economies will flourish again, people will still travel, airlines will still fly and there will be no shortage of people who want to be pilots. Its an aspirrational career, it will always attract wannabee's, and money will still be available. By the time the oil dries up, alternative fuel sources will already be in place. A recent report on flightglobal already show Boeing experimenting(very succesfully) with alternative fuel.
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WindSheer,
I agree with you, everything's going to change over the next few years : oil prices will bring aviation to a dead end, bank's and credit crises will keep many people away from investing their money (and their lives) in something really poorly profitable, but as long as airlines find someone willing to pay to fly, well, why not accept their money ?
Point is : where and when this will come to an end ?
Ciao
I agree with you, everything's going to change over the next few years : oil prices will bring aviation to a dead end, bank's and credit crises will keep many people away from investing their money (and their lives) in something really poorly profitable, but as long as airlines find someone willing to pay to fly, well, why not accept their money ?
Point is : where and when this will come to an end ?
Ciao
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I'd have to agree, this paying for your own TR business really is disgusting, but since there are people out there willing to do it, and bearing in mind the current economical climate etc, it's going to be something we will have to contend with for a while longer I would have thought.
And as someone said previously, having shelled out ££,£££'s already for your training, an extra wedge to get your self started probably seems like the logical thing to do for someone in that situation, and I don't blame them for it.
We just have to wait for things to pick up a bit, and keep our heads screwed on in the meantime. No one can be blamed for doing their best in their given situation.
And as someone said previously, having shelled out ££,£££'s already for your training, an extra wedge to get your self started probably seems like the logical thing to do for someone in that situation, and I don't blame them for it.
We just have to wait for things to pick up a bit, and keep our heads screwed on in the meantime. No one can be blamed for doing their best in their given situation.
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What is wrong with all you people?
The only reason anybody has to pay to fly anything, is because you are all hell bent on skipping your traditional apprenticeships in smaller aircraft and flying a big boeing or airbus straight out of school.
The whole world outside of Europe operates on the principle of : do your CPL/IR, get job flying air taxi or flight instructing or banner towing, get 1000 hours, get job on turboprop or regional jet, do two or three years in the RHS and the same again in the left, then get into the big aircraft after that.
It's a principle that has worked soundly and kept sufficient experience levels in flight decks to maintain passenger safety for most of the last century.
The problem is, that this whole industry that's sprung up in the last few years selling bogus jet jobs to rich kids for ever-increasingly-absurd sums of money, is obscenely profitable, and it has gotten into bed with every owner of every big European flying school in the last 5 or 10 years. It started with the first ones to sell MCC courses in the mid 90s, then buy-a-type-rating in the late 90s, and now with all this buying hours on jets thing, they are absolutely CREAMING you lot for money. Why do you think Oxford is now owned by a venture capital organisation? They wouldn't have touched them 10 years ago, until the big investors suddenly noticed that large and well-respected commercial flying training organisations had become absurdly profitable with all these add-ons they were now selling.
Now of course it's impossible to go through flying school without being repeatedly clubbed over the head with this grand illusion they have created, that you have to buy hours and ratings on big jets and all that bullsh!t as part of their training package.
Wake up and smell the coffee you lot. You DON'T have to buy your way into any job. These charlatans selling all these "experience on jet" schemes have tried to throw a curtain over the fact that the whole world of traditional flying experience is still available and still needs pilots just like it always has. Go and get paid while you learn to fly "properly" on flight instructing/air taxi, then regional airlines, when the time is right and you send those CVs to decent respectable jet airlines they will not only snap you up they will pay you a proper wage, and you won't even have a dirty great hundreds of thousands of euros to pay back to the bank.
And as Mercenary Pilot alludes to, although his words are harsh, I am also of the shared opinion with him that the quality control of these schemes is highly doubtful, and the time will come when someone who is paying to sit in the RHS will be involved or implicated in a large fatal accident. Watch the politicians move very fast to close off access to these kind of schemes very quickly when that day comes.
Those of you who don't read the Down Under / Australia forums here on this website should have a look at some of the debate that's been raging over there about the Lockhart River metroliner crash, apparently the FO in that one was some kind of pay-to-fly candidate, and it already looks like a lot of pressure is being applied to the CAA from influential people in government to make sure it can't happen again. Imagine if it was a boeing or airbus in a big city
The only reason anybody has to pay to fly anything, is because you are all hell bent on skipping your traditional apprenticeships in smaller aircraft and flying a big boeing or airbus straight out of school.
The whole world outside of Europe operates on the principle of : do your CPL/IR, get job flying air taxi or flight instructing or banner towing, get 1000 hours, get job on turboprop or regional jet, do two or three years in the RHS and the same again in the left, then get into the big aircraft after that.
It's a principle that has worked soundly and kept sufficient experience levels in flight decks to maintain passenger safety for most of the last century.
The problem is, that this whole industry that's sprung up in the last few years selling bogus jet jobs to rich kids for ever-increasingly-absurd sums of money, is obscenely profitable, and it has gotten into bed with every owner of every big European flying school in the last 5 or 10 years. It started with the first ones to sell MCC courses in the mid 90s, then buy-a-type-rating in the late 90s, and now with all this buying hours on jets thing, they are absolutely CREAMING you lot for money. Why do you think Oxford is now owned by a venture capital organisation? They wouldn't have touched them 10 years ago, until the big investors suddenly noticed that large and well-respected commercial flying training organisations had become absurdly profitable with all these add-ons they were now selling.
Now of course it's impossible to go through flying school without being repeatedly clubbed over the head with this grand illusion they have created, that you have to buy hours and ratings on big jets and all that bullsh!t as part of their training package.
Wake up and smell the coffee you lot. You DON'T have to buy your way into any job. These charlatans selling all these "experience on jet" schemes have tried to throw a curtain over the fact that the whole world of traditional flying experience is still available and still needs pilots just like it always has. Go and get paid while you learn to fly "properly" on flight instructing/air taxi, then regional airlines, when the time is right and you send those CVs to decent respectable jet airlines they will not only snap you up they will pay you a proper wage, and you won't even have a dirty great hundreds of thousands of euros to pay back to the bank.
And as Mercenary Pilot alludes to, although his words are harsh, I am also of the shared opinion with him that the quality control of these schemes is highly doubtful, and the time will come when someone who is paying to sit in the RHS will be involved or implicated in a large fatal accident. Watch the politicians move very fast to close off access to these kind of schemes very quickly when that day comes.
Those of you who don't read the Down Under / Australia forums here on this website should have a look at some of the debate that's been raging over there about the Lockhart River metroliner crash, apparently the FO in that one was some kind of pay-to-fly candidate, and it already looks like a lot of pressure is being applied to the CAA from influential people in government to make sure it can't happen again. Imagine if it was a boeing or airbus in a big city
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If we were to fly for fun, then it's better to have only PPL and fly those tiny birds instead of paying those jumbos and still you will get to no where. As stated you'll be replaced by a new one who wants to pay, then you will never be Captain to cover, then it's better to fly small planes and and pay from the money you had saved for flight training.
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Luke Skytoddler,
You've summed up everything that annoys me about how people expect to go straight into a jet. That is the crux of the problem. The big FTOs exploit this attitude aswell by charging extra because they have partnerships mainly with jet operators.
Remember, once you get to a jet, that's what you're going to be flying for the next 30/40 years. Don't miss the valuable experience with different flying along the way.
You've summed up everything that annoys me about how people expect to go straight into a jet. That is the crux of the problem. The big FTOs exploit this attitude aswell by charging extra because they have partnerships mainly with jet operators.
Remember, once you get to a jet, that's what you're going to be flying for the next 30/40 years. Don't miss the valuable experience with different flying along the way.
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Well said Mr Skytoddler. The metro incident makes interesting reading.
As a slight aside, scary things these metro's(lawn darts as somebody called them!), I remember the Aberdeen crash very well just a few years ago. I see Benair are still utilising one on occasions here in Scotland.
As a slight aside, scary things these metro's(lawn darts as somebody called them!), I remember the Aberdeen crash very well just a few years ago. I see Benair are still utilising one on occasions here in Scotland.
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Oh no. Don't tell things develop like this... I just cannot believe it. When I started there was nothing like pay for flying in a real airline. You were a kind of outlaw when you suggested something like this and everyone stared at you like "You silly silly stupid!"
For 40 - 50K Euro you could get two good type ratings... at least several years ago. But is it any wonder... if people still pay money to fly in the big industry, things will probably get even worse. They keep on holding their stomach and head out of laughing, earning the big moeny and people pay for flying as pax and pay money for flying for work!!
I know that things might be most difficult right now and young fellows don't really know what to do next, but:
The only help is: People who have enough balls in their throusers to say "No, that's far too much!"
For 40 - 50K Euro you could get two good type ratings... at least several years ago. But is it any wonder... if people still pay money to fly in the big industry, things will probably get even worse. They keep on holding their stomach and head out of laughing, earning the big moeny and people pay for flying as pax and pay money for flying for work!!
I know that things might be most difficult right now and young fellows don't really know what to do next, but:
The only help is: People who have enough balls in their throusers to say "No, that's far too much!"
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A reality often ignored or not given much thought is that the GA scene in Europe is much much smaller than that of the US or even Oz. There are far more airline (jet) jobs than GA jobs in the UK and I'd be willing to bet that not even 10% of the students FTOs churn out each year land a GA job. A 200 hour student can fly a 737 or A320 but needs minimum 500 hours inc 100 hours multi piston time to fly night cargo ops in a Seneca! This is not the student's fault. The whole system (the regs, the insurance companies, everyone) has created an environment where these Pay to fly schemes can flourish.
In an ideal world we should view Pay to fly schemes as being for losers; the rich and stupid or the (time is running out and I am seriously...) desperate. However, how can we ignore that the airlines are tending more and more towards these sorts of schemes themselves?
The root cause? As usual it's the fat cat pilots who sit at the top minding their own business and not getting bothered by the fact that their airline hires 'pay to fly' cadets.
In an ideal world we should view Pay to fly schemes as being for losers; the rich and stupid or the (time is running out and I am seriously...) desperate. However, how can we ignore that the airlines are tending more and more towards these sorts of schemes themselves?
The root cause? As usual it's the fat cat pilots who sit at the top minding their own business and not getting bothered by the fact that their airline hires 'pay to fly' cadets.
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Personally I feel its everyone to their own. I worked as a DJ then later a flight dispatcher for almost four years and hated every secont but I raised the money to take the Modular route and still have money for a top end TR if required at the end. I appreciate people are against paying for a TR and I am included in this however, if people plan years ahead saving the money instead of giant loans from the family account this is more respectable.
This industry has been made like this by people who have passed through before us and I feel planning years ahead then going to work for in the industry before even setting foot in an a/c I feel is acceptable. Expecting, no sorry buying your first job with no prior effort or dedication is not.
Only my thoughts, happy flying people because thats what it is all about really.
This industry has been made like this by people who have passed through before us and I feel planning years ahead then going to work for in the industry before even setting foot in an a/c I feel is acceptable. Expecting, no sorry buying your first job with no prior effort or dedication is not.
Only my thoughts, happy flying people because thats what it is all about really.
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I have to say I find the idea of "pay to fly" in the commercial sector absurd. I "pay to fly" for fun!
For me the basic implication of pay to fly is that the airlines have got prospective FO's believing they are doing them a favour by letting them onto their planes.
Forgive me for being obtuse or ill-informed, but isn't it a LEGAL requirement to have (at least) 2 people up front when flying Joe Public to their various destinations? What are the companies going to do in the absence of juniors to take the RHS, employ another captain?
I think the discrepancy between LHS= being paid 70k, and RHS= having to pay what, 40-50k? grossly distorted
My current job is supposed to be vocational, and it's also supposed to be a calling, but if someone tried to con the junior ranks into paying to goto work, there'd be a bleedin' mass walkout!
As ever, I speak as a very interested individual circulating on the peripheries, hoping to one day gravitate to the middle of this industry, so if I'm missing something painfully obvious, I hang my head...
For me the basic implication of pay to fly is that the airlines have got prospective FO's believing they are doing them a favour by letting them onto their planes.
Forgive me for being obtuse or ill-informed, but isn't it a LEGAL requirement to have (at least) 2 people up front when flying Joe Public to their various destinations? What are the companies going to do in the absence of juniors to take the RHS, employ another captain?
I think the discrepancy between LHS= being paid 70k, and RHS= having to pay what, 40-50k? grossly distorted
My current job is supposed to be vocational, and it's also supposed to be a calling, but if someone tried to con the junior ranks into paying to goto work, there'd be a bleedin' mass walkout!
As ever, I speak as a very interested individual circulating on the peripheries, hoping to one day gravitate to the middle of this industry, so if I'm missing something painfully obvious, I hang my head...
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Pay to Fly? NO, Not in a million years.
I can see the appeal of paying for a type rating as long as there's a very high chance of earning a decent salary after doing so.
Like Mercenary says it puts the low ability pilots on the flight deck not a good idea especially from a commercial point of view....save some cash on ****e pilots then lose a $100Million worth of a/c and twice that in the law suits. (ok thats a little over the top but at the very least the less able will burn a **** load more fuel)
I'll go work in burger world for a living before I pay thousands to sit in a 737.
I can see the appeal of paying for a type rating as long as there's a very high chance of earning a decent salary after doing so.
Like Mercenary says it puts the low ability pilots on the flight deck not a good idea especially from a commercial point of view....save some cash on ****e pilots then lose a $100Million worth of a/c and twice that in the law suits. (ok thats a little over the top but at the very least the less able will burn a **** load more fuel)
I'll go work in burger world for a living before I pay thousands to sit in a 737.
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The notion that it's a way for less able pilots to fast track their career is a little fantastical. At the end of the day a qualified TRE is going to sign such pilots off and they must reach the same standard as the rest.