ATPL and PIC(us)

[kelkim]

Hello all !

I heard some guys talking about the JAA requirement towards the issue of an ATPL.

As we all know the minimum required PIC time for the issue of an ATPL is 250 hours. If you are straight out of the flight school and into an airline you will usually have about 100 hours. So to gain these 250 hours people fly the so called "PIC under supervision''.

To get to the point. These guys told me that by flying in a mulitcrew aircraft you can actually log 50% of the time flown toward the PIC requirement. That means that if I have flown 1000 hours multicrew I can write 500 hours as PIC!!? Can this really be true??

I looked trough the JAR-FCL and I could not find anything like it. Did I miss something?? Or is somebody pulling my legs here?

Also. What are you people doing in your airline? EasyJet? Ryan Air? I could imagine that the demand for Commanders must be pretty high here.

- Kelkim

[CAT1 REVERSION]

kelkim,

Your PICUS time counts towards your full ATPL, so if you have come straight from college to an airline job and do no other flying but multi-crew you can still un-freeze when you get to the required hours.

Criteria for un-freezing:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fc...oplanes_91.pdf

Form to un-freeze:

SRG1137: JAR-FCL Airline Transport Pilot's Licence : Application (FCL-JAR 03) | Publications | CAA

Hope that helps

[Tony Hirst]

To get to the point. These guys told me that by flying in a mulitcrew aircraft you can actually log 50% of the time flown toward the PIC requirement.

Had this discussion very recently. Not 50% of the time, but you can log PICUS for the time you fly as PF which would normally be roughly 50% of your multi-crew time because the Capt and F/O would usually fly alternate sectors. You can get the Capt to sign the log book or your company will provide a letter of verification to the CAA when you apply for your ATPL.

[Agaricus bisporus]

This subject has been done to death and beyond on several occasions recently. The search function is your friend!

And No, it has nothing whatsoever to do with who is actually flying the aeroplane, PF, or 50% of anything at all.

Search JAR OPS. Its all on the web!!!!

However; from JAR FCL1 1.080 (c) (5)

(5) PICUS (Pilot-in-command under
supervision)
Provided that the method of supervision
is acceptable to the Authority, a co-pilot may
log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when all
of the duties and functions of PIC on that flight
were carried out, such that the intervention of
the PIC in the interest of safety was not
required.

and

•

all time recorded as SPIC or PICUS must be countersigned by the aircraft commander/flight instructor in the Remarks (column 12).

Thus it is clear that to log PICUS you must have carried out all the duties of the pilot in command without being overridden on safety matters. So you will have conducted all preflight & crew briefing, made all fuel and Wx decisions, made or approved all operational decisions in flight and on the ground, overseen and approved all paperwork, liased with Ops and Engineering as appropriate...in other words acted throughout as Commander. It clearly cannot happen without the prior agreement and co-operation of the Captain from the start of the pre-flight brief.

For which the Captain will happily give his signature in your logbook. For all the flight time. You don't have to touch the controls.

Assuming you can shove a book under his nose at the end of the flight and ask for a signature is both unprofessional and dishonest. (though a widespread habit)

PICUS is an excellent training tool for informally developing the abilities of FOs approaching ATPL issue. It is a shame that it is so widely abused.

[Tony Hirst]

I knew I should have put money on stroppy response within the first five. You guys

[Agaricus bisporus]

Tony, I can't see what was "stroppy" in my post, exasperated perhaps, at yet another repeat of this question, perhaps you are being a little oversensitive - and the posting of incorrect info on such a simple matter needs to be put right, don't you think?

Edited anyway to soothe any ruffled feathers. Better?

[Tony Hirst]

Better?

Luverly


Seriously now, I've asked around what people are doing and generally seems to be as I described, in my company also. Although I am operating to and licensed under CAAV VAR-FCL, they are pretty much lifted from the JAA (virtually word for word from what I can figure out) so there is little difference in practice. For those cases at least it seems that an F/O is acting as PIC under a method of supervision acceptable to the authorities concerned. There maybe other scenarios, but within the context of this thread as far as I am concerned, my sectors as PF will be logged as PICUS.

all time recorded as SPIC or PICUS must be countersigned by the aircraft commander/flight instructor in the Remarks (column 12).

As mentioned previously, it maybe the case that the authority will accept a letter of hours verification from the company in lieu of the signatures.

[kelkim]

First of all... Thanks for the replies!

Agaricus bisporus. I am not sure that you read my question properly. What you are telling me about JAR-OPS/FCL and the PIC(us) procedure is old news. It is not like I am asking you a stupid question about PIC(us). I am fully aware what is written in the legislation. That is also why I wrote in my first post that I already had looked through the FCL.

I merely wanted to confirm with you guys that there is no other procedure for gaining PIC hours. I was told that you could log the multicrew time as well, which in my world is completely wrong! I just wondered if I had missed something in the law.

In my company I am flying PIC(us) with nominated line captains and it is according to JAR-FCL. However, I heard about a colleague who just wrote 50% of his multicrew time as PIC which is a bit disturbing to me - especially since I have to go through all the hazzle of flying PIC(us).

And when we are talking about the subject.. Yes we can agree that PIC(us) is a good training tool and in my mind a much better way to gain PIC hours because it is 100% oriented toward your future tasks and responsibilities. However.. If you have to fly 150 hours of PIC(us) on top of the 1000 hours on type you have in advance it might be a bit over the top!! Let's face it. It is not rocket science to fill in the tech log and order the fuel. It is more about mind-set, attitude, commitment and sense of responsibility. I believe that the JAR hour requirements toward an ATPL are outdated.. maybe even stone age. How can you meassure a pilots qualification in hours alone!? I think there is much more to it.

Are 1000 hours of crop dusting just as qualifying as 1000 hours of medium range jet experience? If you ask JAA - Yes.

Are 1500 hours of co-pilot on B737 just as qualifying toward commander on a Saab 340 as 1500 hours of co-pilot on the Saab? If you ask JAA - Yes.

I think there is room for a discussion here!!

-kelkim

" good judgement comes from experience. Unfortunately the experience usually comes from bad judgement."

[Artie Fufkin]

Agaricus bisporus, I was on the phone to the CAA this very morning who confirmed that all PF flights could be claimed as PICUS as long as the company signed a letter agreeing.

Should I ring the CAA back and ask them to review JAR OPS?

All us smarty pants know what PICUS should be...