ryanair vs instructing
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Don't waste your money on Ryanair. Go for the instructorjob.
Just having to pay £260 for the interview shows how much they care about their future staff - stay away from them.
Just having to pay £260 for the interview shows how much they care about their future staff - stay away from them.
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Because you think flying the same routes over and over again develops your sense of SA? 
Perhaps!
Perhaps!
It may be down to my inexperience in the RHS but I find an airliner cockpit far more challenging and a far higher demand on my S.A. then I ever experienced in GA aircraft.
Maybe you're finding it so easy (presuming your FC) because of the high standard of SA you have from piloting jets!
I'm in no way bashing instructing as an option, but the sooner you start getting jet time you'll end up leap years ahead of someone who instructs for a period of time instead, both financially and in experience.
You could instruct for a year and still find that only RyanAir will offer you an interview just like that, especially if the industry enters the negative part of its cycle.
Just my 2c
(flame suit on)
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Supramkiv, it seems that you're either insulting your instructors or you've been badly trained. 
Whatever you do is your choice hopefuly. Enjoy it. And whatever altitude / flight level you fly at, stay down to earth and keep a small head on your shoulders.
Whatever you do is your choice hopefuly. Enjoy it. And whatever altitude / flight level you fly at, stay down to earth and keep a small head on your shoulders.
Educated Hillbilly
Supramkiv
I assume you have never actually instructed. There is a difference between just flying a light aircraft and instructing in one. Personally I found the FI course alot harder than the IR or the CPL.
Of course a jet from a systems point of view and speed is going to create workload, however in a jet you are operating multi crew.
After instructing if ever you leap back into an aircraft and you only have to fly the aircraft then you suddenly realise that is feels incredibly easy; that is because when teaching and flying, the teaching aspect uses a reasonable amount of capacity. Also a 737 is alot more complex than a seneca; so are you going to tell me you have better SA than a seasoned air taxi pilot; I somehow doubt it.
Anyway the above argument is irrelevant to the original question.
However what I would like to add it is the JAA training system has propagated the SSTR route, in the CAA self improver system you had to gain 700 hours to gain a full CPL; as a consequence most people were forced to spend some time in general aviation; the JAA modular system allowed modular/self improvers to hold the CPL at 200 hours and this has allowed Ryanair to take advantage of low hour pilots.
It is a gamble Ryanair- large outlay but straight onto jets
Instructing- no guarentee of a job at the end- but after a year you could still find yourself invited to an interview for a jet job where the company pays for the rating and covers all the other stuff as well (uniforms etc).
Anyway for the original poster; why not instruct for 6 months full time see if anything arises, if not then consider the Ryanair route.
I assume you have never actually instructed. There is a difference between just flying a light aircraft and instructing in one. Personally I found the FI course alot harder than the IR or the CPL.
Of course a jet from a systems point of view and speed is going to create workload, however in a jet you are operating multi crew.
After instructing if ever you leap back into an aircraft and you only have to fly the aircraft then you suddenly realise that is feels incredibly easy; that is because when teaching and flying, the teaching aspect uses a reasonable amount of capacity. Also a 737 is alot more complex than a seneca; so are you going to tell me you have better SA than a seasoned air taxi pilot; I somehow doubt it.
Anyway the above argument is irrelevant to the original question.
However what I would like to add it is the JAA training system has propagated the SSTR route, in the CAA self improver system you had to gain 700 hours to gain a full CPL; as a consequence most people were forced to spend some time in general aviation; the JAA modular system allowed modular/self improvers to hold the CPL at 200 hours and this has allowed Ryanair to take advantage of low hour pilots.
It is a gamble Ryanair- large outlay but straight onto jets
Instructing- no guarentee of a job at the end- but after a year you could still find yourself invited to an interview for a jet job where the company pays for the rating and covers all the other stuff as well (uniforms etc).
Anyway for the original poster; why not instruct for 6 months full time see if anything arises, if not then consider the Ryanair route.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 2nd Dec 2007 at 11:41.
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I'd like you to explain how i'm insulting my instructors? This is purely a debate on wether someone should choose to instruct over accepting a job offer from a jet operator. If the posters goal is to fly airliners and not be a career instructor then I personally see little point in burning VFR holes in the sky, as I expect the majority of the initial instruction he gives will be limited to SEP VFR PPL instruction. And who knows what the market will be like in 1-2 years. I'm sure an instructor really does raise the bar once teaching MEP, IR's and CPL's, but depending on where the person instructs this could take some time.
If people enjoy instructing and choose to do it and prefer it, then by all means do it.
If people enjoy instructing and choose to do it and prefer it, then by all means do it.
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As can be seen by a lot of the posts to the original question, everyone is under the impression that the way he/she has proceeded with there aviation career is “clearly” the most sensible route, and this is in some ways quite correct as everyone has differing circumstances and will take the best option for them at the time.
For what it’s worth IMO, Ryan Air would be the way to go if you can afford it/comfortable with taking on that amount of debt. It’s no mystery that as a company they lack any ethics and will no doubt at some point treat you poorly. However they will put you in the right seat of a shiny new 737-800 and you will be getting those all important hours on type. Stay a year or two, leave and remove the whole experience from your memory. Please understand I’m not knocking all those FI out there, I just think as an FI there is still a strong chance that in the end you will have to pay for a type rating on a jet.
In the end do what is best for you.
Good Luck
For what it’s worth IMO, Ryan Air would be the way to go if you can afford it/comfortable with taking on that amount of debt. It’s no mystery that as a company they lack any ethics and will no doubt at some point treat you poorly. However they will put you in the right seat of a shiny new 737-800 and you will be getting those all important hours on type. Stay a year or two, leave and remove the whole experience from your memory. Please understand I’m not knocking all those FI out there, I just think as an FI there is still a strong chance that in the end you will have to pay for a type rating on a jet.
In the end do what is best for you.
Good Luck
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I think that one thing doesnt exclude the other because if you are going to be based near your home (it happen) you could be even instructor and flying for this company...Many peoples even if they got a job on a big jet they are stil involved as instructor with some airclub or training school.
jusy passion for fliying!!
I
jusy passion for fliying!!
I
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I think that one thing doesnt exclude the other because if you are going to be based near your home (it happen) you could be even instructor and flying for this company...Many peoples even if they got a job on a big jet they are stil involved as instructor with some airclub or training school.
jusy passion for fliying!!
I would waist this money in the assestment its a tragedy fail!!
jusy passion for fliying!!
I would waist this money in the assestment its a tragedy fail!!
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Emme, instructing counts as commercial time in the eyes of the CAA which means that every hour spent in a bug smasher will have to be deducted from the maximum 900 hours that the airline can utilise you. Therefore not always easy to obtain permission from the company to instruct in your own time, as it decreases the work you can do for the airline.
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Mamma mia!!!
I'd like you to explain how i'm insulting my instructors?
Another example:
little point in burning VFR holes in the sky
I seem to understand that you do not know what instructing is all about (please correct me if I'm wrong). But that's ok. You can't know everything and/or be good at everything
.
If the posters goal is to fly airliners and not be a career instructor
commercial flying job? No other jobs in between knowing that these wouldn't be a career? Did you ever wash those easy flown VFR hole burning aeroplanes?
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and you'll have many opportunities within the next years with 3 to 5 000 heavy jet hours.
My advice, just do what you want to, as long as you can afford to financially. Instructing can be great fun for a while.
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Not meaning to be obtuse, but why would you have an FI rating on your licence and not be sure about using it? Ryanair's intake of low hours guys is hardly news to anyone and so you must have known of this before you did your FIC so why enter into this decision after the FIC?
Also regarding the Ryanair assessment, I do recommend you go along and do it. You can always turn the job down later, and I believe it's an open offer for up to a year. However, you do have to actually PASS the assessment, before you can realistically chose between the two so don't go counting any chickens. I was lucky that I was offered another job straight after my FR interview whilst in the waiting area for the sim! However, I wasn't offered FR, for whatever reason. I didn't have to make MY decision in the end, it was made for me.
In my personal opinion I would go do the assessment regardless (if you can afford the £260.) Who knows, you might learn something about FR/yourself/CRM/jet skills and countless other lessons that MAY carry across into instructing and benefit you and your students long term. I instructed in another industry and found it MASSIVELY rewarding. If using your FI at least you build time, get paid (albeit not a large some) and get the buzz of instructing.
Go do the assessment THEN make a better informed decision, would be my advice. But either way, good luck.
Also regarding the Ryanair assessment, I do recommend you go along and do it. You can always turn the job down later, and I believe it's an open offer for up to a year. However, you do have to actually PASS the assessment, before you can realistically chose between the two so don't go counting any chickens. I was lucky that I was offered another job straight after my FR interview whilst in the waiting area for the sim! However, I wasn't offered FR, for whatever reason. I didn't have to make MY decision in the end, it was made for me.
In my personal opinion I would go do the assessment regardless (if you can afford the £260.) Who knows, you might learn something about FR/yourself/CRM/jet skills and countless other lessons that MAY carry across into instructing and benefit you and your students long term. I instructed in another industry and found it MASSIVELY rewarding. If using your FI at least you build time, get paid (albeit not a large some) and get the buzz of instructing.
Go do the assessment THEN make a better informed decision, would be my advice. But either way, good luck.
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Some thoughts
I for one think that this decision boils down to two key elements:
1. Can you afford the £25000 investment required for Ryan Air?
2. Do you like the idea of jumping straight onto a jet or are you happy to instruct for a while - and yes age does play a part in this.
For me Ryan Air is the last company I would ever want to work for because the guy who runs it is the worst kind of sh*t and has pretty much demolished and dehumanized this industry in a mere decade. On the other hand I was older and never really had any desire to instruct as a career so in your shoes I would probably go for the airline option (even Ryan Air).
One further observation, I spoke with a BA longhaul SFO the other day and he has pretty much worked his way up through the industry from instructing on a 152, to single crew twins, then regional turboprop before joining BA some years ago. He said to me that his job satisfaction has been inversely proportional to his pay packet and status because quite simply flying short hops in a puddle jumper is actually more 'fun' than systems monitoring in a 777 for ten hours. It certainly made me think about things and is an interesting perspective.
For what it's worth I decided that I would not self fund a type rating because after funding an integrated course and maintaining currency I had reached my self imposed line in the sand that meant I wouldn't sacrifice my family any further at the altar of aviation. I'm pleased to say after almost two years of job hunting I eventually joined a well known turboprop operator who still do things the 'right way' with a bonded type rating, uniforms, line training, hotels and hire cars etc all fully provided by the company. I admire companies with such business ethics so the BA's, Virgin's, Monarch's, Flybe's of the world will always command my respect whereas Mr O'Lairy does not!
I hope this is helpful,
Desk-pilot
1. Can you afford the £25000 investment required for Ryan Air?
2. Do you like the idea of jumping straight onto a jet or are you happy to instruct for a while - and yes age does play a part in this.
For me Ryan Air is the last company I would ever want to work for because the guy who runs it is the worst kind of sh*t and has pretty much demolished and dehumanized this industry in a mere decade. On the other hand I was older and never really had any desire to instruct as a career so in your shoes I would probably go for the airline option (even Ryan Air).
One further observation, I spoke with a BA longhaul SFO the other day and he has pretty much worked his way up through the industry from instructing on a 152, to single crew twins, then regional turboprop before joining BA some years ago. He said to me that his job satisfaction has been inversely proportional to his pay packet and status because quite simply flying short hops in a puddle jumper is actually more 'fun' than systems monitoring in a 777 for ten hours. It certainly made me think about things and is an interesting perspective.
For what it's worth I decided that I would not self fund a type rating because after funding an integrated course and maintaining currency I had reached my self imposed line in the sand that meant I wouldn't sacrifice my family any further at the altar of aviation. I'm pleased to say after almost two years of job hunting I eventually joined a well known turboprop operator who still do things the 'right way' with a bonded type rating, uniforms, line training, hotels and hire cars etc all fully provided by the company. I admire companies with such business ethics so the BA's, Virgin's, Monarch's, Flybe's of the world will always command my respect whereas Mr O'Lairy does not!
I hope this is helpful,
Desk-pilot
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2604,
No, I fail to see how i've insulted instructing one bit. Of course I am glad that people do choose the instructing route, but over all the various ratings/licences i've taken every instructor bar one has been doing it for one reason, no airline job offer yet, and have left instructing the second an offer was on the table.
Not for a second have I said that the service provided isn't extremely valuable, but this isn't a discussion about the service they offer, it's a discussion on what the job brings to their own ability vs accepting a 737 job and what that would add to their ability.
I don't have any statistics on the %'s of instructors doing it for a career vs those doing it to get an airline job but at a guess I'd say it steers towards the higher % doing it to get an airline job, but I stand to be corrected. Which would explain to me why most of the schools/clubs around SE England are struggling to retain instructors during this recruitment peak.
No, I fail to see how i've insulted instructing one bit. Of course I am glad that people do choose the instructing route, but over all the various ratings/licences i've taken every instructor bar one has been doing it for one reason, no airline job offer yet, and have left instructing the second an offer was on the table.
Not for a second have I said that the service provided isn't extremely valuable, but this isn't a discussion about the service they offer, it's a discussion on what the job brings to their own ability vs accepting a 737 job and what that would add to their ability.
I don't have any statistics on the %'s of instructors doing it for a career vs those doing it to get an airline job but at a guess I'd say it steers towards the higher % doing it to get an airline job, but I stand to be corrected. Which would explain to me why most of the schools/clubs around SE England are struggling to retain instructors during this recruitment peak.
Educated Hillbilly
Spramkiv,
You have just stated a very valid argument for doing the FI route; lots of schools are struggling to retain instructors due to the recruitment drive at the moment.
Also you can bet all these instructors are getting training bonds and not having to pay for ratings.
You have just stated a very valid argument for doing the FI route; lots of schools are struggling to retain instructors due to the recruitment drive at the moment.
Also you can bet all these instructors are getting training bonds and not having to pay for ratings.
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Ok
Ok I believe you. A different wording might have got the message through better though.
I agree with some of your points but won't discuss it any further as it's already been done in previous threads: What experience is best? (eg: ability to manage a cockpit, handle an aeroplane, an unforseen situation, etc), and why do instructors leave?
I agree with some of your points but won't discuss it any further as it's already been done in previous threads: What experience is best? (eg: ability to manage a cockpit, handle an aeroplane, an unforseen situation, etc), and why do instructors leave?
Thread Starter
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Hi all!
Thank you very much for all replies, they are all really appreciated.
I am steering to the instructor route. I am not going to starve for 2 or 3 years or more just to fly a shinny jet, at least not yet.
I would say the Ryanair offer would convince me if you had a decent pay that allowed you to live and repay the loan that began being paid the day you began to fly with them (after base check for instance) (setting aside any thoughts on how they treat their employees), but as it is not the case, I just can't afford to live on nothing plus having such a loan for 1y+.
Hopefully I will come back to this post in a year's or two years' time and find I choose right.
I will post my view in a year's time or so.
Happy landings to all!
wf
Thank you very much for all replies, they are all really appreciated.
I am steering to the instructor route. I am not going to starve for 2 or 3 years or more just to fly a shinny jet, at least not yet.
I would say the Ryanair offer would convince me if you had a decent pay that allowed you to live and repay the loan that began being paid the day you began to fly with them (after base check for instance) (setting aside any thoughts on how they treat their employees), but as it is not the case, I just can't afford to live on nothing plus having such a loan for 1y+.
Hopefully I will come back to this post in a year's or two years' time and find I choose right.
I will post my view in a year's time or so.
Happy landings to all!
wf
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Tupues, your right mate not everyone is FI material.
When i finish my training ideally i'd like to get a job on light twins (through family connections) for a year or two, building experience and hours. Then i'd be a better pilot and have experience in ''life stuff''. I personally don't want to go down the FI route, but at the end of the day if it was a choice between FI and Ryanair.... i'd be forking out the dosh for O'leary. I know you older (more experienced) guys don't agree with paying for TR, but like most people you'll do what it takes to get where you want to be.
One last thing, what's the rush to fly jets??? If your young then you got all the time in the world for that.
Take it easy
Marky
When i finish my training ideally i'd like to get a job on light twins (through family connections) for a year or two, building experience and hours. Then i'd be a better pilot and have experience in ''life stuff''. I personally don't want to go down the FI route, but at the end of the day if it was a choice between FI and Ryanair.... i'd be forking out the dosh for O'leary. I know you older (more experienced) guys don't agree with paying for TR, but like most people you'll do what it takes to get where you want to be.
One last thing, what's the rush to fly jets??? If your young then you got all the time in the world for that.
Take it easy
Marky
Educated Hillbilly
MarkyT,
Flying Light twins if it is on an AOC will be single pilot public transport work, as such you will need 700 total time with at least 40 p1 multi IFR; alot of air taxi companies will ask for 1000 total with 100 p1 multi, as such air taxi work in light twins is not something for a fresh qualifier.
It is actually easier to be co-pilot on a big shiny jet than to fly single pilot in a light twin.
With 250 hours air taxi work will not be an option.
Flying in Africa may give you a chance to build the required hours though.
The majoirty of air taxi pilots will have come from an instructional background.
Flying Light twins if it is on an AOC will be single pilot public transport work, as such you will need 700 total time with at least 40 p1 multi IFR; alot of air taxi companies will ask for 1000 total with 100 p1 multi, as such air taxi work in light twins is not something for a fresh qualifier.
It is actually easier to be co-pilot on a big shiny jet than to fly single pilot in a light twin.
With 250 hours air taxi work will not be an option.
Flying in Africa may give you a chance to build the required hours though.
The majoirty of air taxi pilots will have come from an instructional background.