Ryanair Cadets - Contract info - (Please dont merge with 'Ryanair' Thread)
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I have just been offered a place on the FR TR course but I have had a different picture painted about pay. You only get 60euro an hour minus 4.5euro per block hour for recurrent training once you are offered a Brookfield contract by FR which should be 4-5 weeks after your line check and don't forget line training takes 3 months
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I've noticed this reference to 'block hour'. What is this exactly ? I'm guessing it refers to 'flight hour', which of course means that all the duty time is not paid for - am I correct ?
CG
CG
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All the following figures are BEFORE UK tax:
You'll earn £800 per month from the date you complete base training. There is no additional pay when your safety pilot is released, and you remain on a Ryanair contract until you complete your first line check which is usually around 70 to 90 sectors or approx 2 months after you start line training.
Once your first line check is complete, you continue to earn £800 per month on a Ryanair training contract, plus 50% sector pay which equates to approximately £11 per scheduled block hour at 50%. Be prepared for a fair amount of standby days once your first line check is complete. During line training you'll probably fly close to 100 hours a month. After line training expect 50 to 75 hours per month.
Some time after your first line check (usually within a month) you are most likely offered either a Ryanair contract (not sure of the payscales) or a Brookfield contract. The Brookfield contract pays 55 euros per scheduled block hour until you reach 500hrs on JAR25 aircraft. After that it goes to 75 euros per scheduled block hour, until you reach 1500 hours and then it's 80 euros per hour.
Those euro figures are if you are based at one base - e.g. DUB or STN. If you are floating base, add an extra 20 euros per hour to those figures.
You'll earn £800 per month from the date you complete base training. There is no additional pay when your safety pilot is released, and you remain on a Ryanair contract until you complete your first line check which is usually around 70 to 90 sectors or approx 2 months after you start line training.
Once your first line check is complete, you continue to earn £800 per month on a Ryanair training contract, plus 50% sector pay which equates to approximately £11 per scheduled block hour at 50%. Be prepared for a fair amount of standby days once your first line check is complete. During line training you'll probably fly close to 100 hours a month. After line training expect 50 to 75 hours per month.
Some time after your first line check (usually within a month) you are most likely offered either a Ryanair contract (not sure of the payscales) or a Brookfield contract. The Brookfield contract pays 55 euros per scheduled block hour until you reach 500hrs on JAR25 aircraft. After that it goes to 75 euros per scheduled block hour, until you reach 1500 hours and then it's 80 euros per hour.
Those euro figures are if you are based at one base - e.g. DUB or STN. If you are floating base, add an extra 20 euros per hour to those figures.
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The starting wage is crap but I'm trying to look long term instead of the first 6 months. Still not sure how I'm going to live at the start! I could always rent my body to some rich chic!
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Quote from FMSData's F.A.Q.'s post:
Can people who are on the Brookfield contract elaborate? (I am presuming you HAVE to be self employed/Ltd on this contract).
Have Ryanair & Brookfield successfully accounted for IR35 legislation in setting this up and avoiding employer NI contributions etc?
How are people on the contract managing this all?
Have people managed to get tax relief on training such as the type rating? What about claiming back on other expenses? How do people claim back say VAT on fuel for work travel etc? It is my understanding that you can't register for VAT returns unless your turnover is in excess of £64k and that even then you'd actually have to charge VAT to your customers. ie Brookfield? I can't imagine they would be too chuffed if you whacked 17.5% on the final invoice? But then wouldn't we legally have to charge them VAT? Are there any real benefits that people on this contract have been able to exploit for themselves?
Speaking of invoices. How does that work? We would obviously have to invoice Brookfield each month for what we are owed? Would there not be issues with people getting the invoicing wrong in terms of amount and time periods? Do Brookfield basically inform us what we need to invoice them?
Going back to the IR35 (just Google it if you want to read up), i can't understand how the tax inspectors don't have issues with this? All Brookfield people as sole traders only work for that company throughout the year? How does the IR not see this as 'employee' status? In this area then Brookfield/Ryanair would be responsible. How have they managed to blag this all up? What's the loop hole?
I'm not an account or a tax specialist and I will seek advice if I get though, but in the mean time can people who are in this system provide some advice on how it is working for them?
Thanks..
Does Brookfield deduct my tax?
Your contract clearly states “The pilot confirms his status as self employed/sole trader or engaged to the contractor through a limited company.”As with every self employed person you are obliged by law to submit a tax return and pay the relevant liability to the appropriate authority.
Your contract clearly states “The pilot confirms his status as self employed/sole trader or engaged to the contractor through a limited company.”As with every self employed person you are obliged by law to submit a tax return and pay the relevant liability to the appropriate authority.
Have Ryanair & Brookfield successfully accounted for IR35 legislation in setting this up and avoiding employer NI contributions etc?
How are people on the contract managing this all?
Have people managed to get tax relief on training such as the type rating? What about claiming back on other expenses? How do people claim back say VAT on fuel for work travel etc? It is my understanding that you can't register for VAT returns unless your turnover is in excess of £64k and that even then you'd actually have to charge VAT to your customers. ie Brookfield? I can't imagine they would be too chuffed if you whacked 17.5% on the final invoice? But then wouldn't we legally have to charge them VAT? Are there any real benefits that people on this contract have been able to exploit for themselves?
Speaking of invoices. How does that work? We would obviously have to invoice Brookfield each month for what we are owed? Would there not be issues with people getting the invoicing wrong in terms of amount and time periods? Do Brookfield basically inform us what we need to invoice them?
Going back to the IR35 (just Google it if you want to read up), i can't understand how the tax inspectors don't have issues with this? All Brookfield people as sole traders only work for that company throughout the year? How does the IR not see this as 'employee' status? In this area then Brookfield/Ryanair would be responsible. How have they managed to blag this all up? What's the loop hole?
I'm not an account or a tax specialist and I will seek advice if I get though, but in the mean time can people who are in this system provide some advice on how it is working for them?
Thanks..
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Exactly! Very pertinent remark Diamond Dog!
Well, what you have to know is Ryanair = Brookfield and Brookfield = Ryanair.
All new guys and girls go on Brookfield. No choice. Take it or leave it!
This serves a few purposes:
- As a Brookfield pilot, you have no say in Ryanair. This simply gets rid of all union threat, etc....You are just there to do your job, and that's it. They do not want you to get involved in the politics of the company, etc....
- They cut staff costs by approximately two. They pay a pilot 55.5 Euro per sbh (no money for standbys or holidays) and that's it. No Tax, no NI, no pension, etc..... nothing else than 55.5 Euro an hour. Another money-saving exercise!
In the contract, they force you to take, or impose on you the status of self employed. I do not know how legal this is? However, I am pretty sure the work you do does not match the criteria of self-employment as you can find them here and there, as Diamond Dog pointed out rightly. How can they do that, I don't know, as I am no expert myself either, but all it seems to me is that it is very, very dodgy. As long as they can get away with it, they will keep doing it.... like all other things!
As for people in the system, well.... I believe most of them do not have a clue, hence the lack of detailed and accurate replies here.
Well, what you have to know is Ryanair = Brookfield and Brookfield = Ryanair.
All new guys and girls go on Brookfield. No choice. Take it or leave it!
This serves a few purposes:
- As a Brookfield pilot, you have no say in Ryanair. This simply gets rid of all union threat, etc....You are just there to do your job, and that's it. They do not want you to get involved in the politics of the company, etc....
- They cut staff costs by approximately two. They pay a pilot 55.5 Euro per sbh (no money for standbys or holidays) and that's it. No Tax, no NI, no pension, etc..... nothing else than 55.5 Euro an hour. Another money-saving exercise!
In the contract, they force you to take, or impose on you the status of self employed. I do not know how legal this is? However, I am pretty sure the work you do does not match the criteria of self-employment as you can find them here and there, as Diamond Dog pointed out rightly. How can they do that, I don't know, as I am no expert myself either, but all it seems to me is that it is very, very dodgy. As long as they can get away with it, they will keep doing it.... like all other things!
As for people in the system, well.... I believe most of them do not have a clue, hence the lack of detailed and accurate replies here.
Last edited by Anotherpilot007; 18th Oct 2007 at 13:30.
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The last two threads have hit the nail on the head. All other issues regarding line training costs, notice, benefits etc, are minor issues. I have shown the Brookfield contract to several accountants now and all of them were left scratching their heads. Firstly, they cannot decide if you are self employed or an employee. Just because it says in the contract that you are self employed does not prove that you are. It is just Brookfield's stance. Here is an Irish Revenue document to help you decide if you are self employed or not. As you will see most of the answers to the questions indicate that you are an employee.
Secondly, the income you receive from Brookfield is a foreign income. And according to Irish tax law (and I presume other countries) you cannot get tax relief on a foreign income! This is a major financial issue.
Thirdly, as has already been pointed out, are pilots required to pay VAT on their income if they go down the self employed route? If so then they will have to invoice Brookfield for the VAT. But what if Brookfield wont pay you the VAT! That’s gross – income tax – VAT!
These are major issues for the Brookfield contract and one which they don’t mention to cadets.
And by the way, I am no tax expert; these are just the issues which I have heard guys come across.
Secondly, the income you receive from Brookfield is a foreign income. And according to Irish tax law (and I presume other countries) you cannot get tax relief on a foreign income! This is a major financial issue.
Thirdly, as has already been pointed out, are pilots required to pay VAT on their income if they go down the self employed route? If so then they will have to invoice Brookfield for the VAT. But what if Brookfield wont pay you the VAT! That’s gross – income tax – VAT!
These are major issues for the Brookfield contract and one which they don’t mention to cadets.
And by the way, I am no tax expert; these are just the issues which I have heard guys come across.
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There really is a lack of techincal info on this. I know there are several 'Brookfield' threads but it's all the usual clap trap. I can't find any real focus on how newbies deal with this way of financial management or related advice.
I fear if I start a new thread it'll just be dogged again by people who have no direct experience of it and just wanted to expell their random views on everybody.
There are meant to be some 400 pilots on Brookfield and they must be managing their finances otherwise we'd be hearing about all the tax issues etc on here.
Can anyone who IS on this contract shed light on how it all works, what their responsibilities are and how they manage their tax affairs?
(I know this should probably be in terms and endearment).
Waiting in bated anticipation of a favourable response..
I fear if I start a new thread it'll just be dogged again by people who have no direct experience of it and just wanted to expell their random views on everybody.
There are meant to be some 400 pilots on Brookfield and they must be managing their finances otherwise we'd be hearing about all the tax issues etc on here.
Can anyone who IS on this contract shed light on how it all works, what their responsibilities are and how they manage their tax affairs?
(I know this should probably be in terms and endearment).
Waiting in bated anticipation of a favourable response..
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A reason for lack of info on this subject is probably because a good percentage of those on the contract are cheating the tax system. I wouldn't expect our European friends (Italians, Eastern Europeans in particular) to give a monkey's ass about Irish tax. 
Sorry not a very 'favourable' response but probably true 
Sorry not a very 'favourable' response but probably true
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<500 hours JAR25 EUR 60 per scheduled block hour>500 hours <1500 hours JAT25 EUR 80 psbh
>1500 hours JAR25 EUR85 psbh
minus EUR 4.50 psbh for recurrent sim training (lpc-opc biannual)
This is for a Brookfield contract - starting, in my case about 4 weeks after completion of line training....so it was 3 months on £762 per month from the Ryanair training contract.
As for base....I got my first choice.... others got their 2nd or third choice, or maybe had no choice at all....its a bit of a lottery, all dependant on operational needs at the time. The bigger the base, the more likely you are to get it....looking at it the other way, the more desirable the base (Southern Europe) the less likely...
Good luck!
>1500 hours JAR25 EUR85 psbh
minus EUR 4.50 psbh for recurrent sim training (lpc-opc biannual)
This is for a Brookfield contract - starting, in my case about 4 weeks after completion of line training....so it was 3 months on £762 per month from the Ryanair training contract.
As for base....I got my first choice
.... others got their 2nd or third choice, or maybe had no choice at all....its a bit of a lottery, all dependant on operational needs at the time. The bigger the base, the more likely you are to get it....looking at it the other way, the more desirable the base (Southern Europe) the less likely...Good luck!
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One other thing not mentioned in the contract description......
The contract basically says that you will be fired if you publicly criticise RYR and BRK....
What kind of employer is that? (ooooops, I forgot you are self-employed!!!)
The contract basically says that you will be fired if you publicly criticise RYR and BRK....
What kind of employer is that? (ooooops, I forgot you are self-employed!!!)
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Just got an offer as a direct entry F/O on Brookfield contract!
Really I can't see any good in this contract.
Is there anybody here who working on a brookfield contract that can actually say something about it? How do you manage your taxes?
Moneywise I must say that at a first glance it seems like a much worser option than being employed. At least if you plan to be legal in terms of taxes etc. All depending on your actual block hours flown.
Also they don't guarantee any flight hours! How much do you brookfield pilots really fly annually?
Anyone who has tried to negotiate about the bond of 5500Euro they want to to sign? I find it really ridicolous to bond a type rated pilot with hours on type, but thats what they want!
Really I can't see any good in this contract.
Is there anybody here who working on a brookfield contract that can actually say something about it? How do you manage your taxes?
Moneywise I must say that at a first glance it seems like a much worser option than being employed. At least if you plan to be legal in terms of taxes etc. All depending on your actual block hours flown.
Also they don't guarantee any flight hours! How much do you brookfield pilots really fly annually?
Anyone who has tried to negotiate about the bond of 5500Euro they want to to sign? I find it really ridicolous to bond a type rated pilot with hours on type, but thats what they want!
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crankshaft... have you decided what to do? are you gonna take the brookfield contract? from what I hear the good thing about it is that you are practically guaranteed 900 hours a year - true the rate is pretty meager when you consider living expenses etc, but thats all there is on offer atm
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Had a Ryanair assesment today, and had the scheduled block hour thing laid out for me. You only get paid for what the flight schedule is, not what the actual flight takes. So if you are told to hold for half a century, or there's a big delay then its tough doodoo. Interesting.
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Pressman... Are you a brookfield pilot? I've heard that the pemanent pilots may have more standby than brookfield pilots.
The contract actually says "maximum 4 days standby in 28 days". So if you have 5 days stby /month it could still be within the limits of the contract.
If it's still more than 4 stby days/28 days.... then they do not fulfil their part of the contract! But I suppose they don't care about this.
If I don't earn the money... then I'll HAVE to leave - not because I want.... but because I have to! And the worst thing is that I will have to PAY 5500 Euros to leave a job where I make no money!!!
I wish I had a good job offer somewhere else.... then I could tell them to F... off.
The contract actually says "maximum 4 days standby in 28 days". So if you have 5 days stby /month it could still be within the limits of the contract.
If it's still more than 4 stby days/28 days.... then they do not fulfil their part of the contract! But I suppose they don't care about this.
If I don't earn the money... then I'll HAVE to leave - not because I want.... but because I have to! And the worst thing is that I will have to PAY 5500 Euros to leave a job where I make no money!!!
I wish I had a good job offer somewhere else.... then I could tell them to F... off.
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The starting wage is crap but I'm trying to look long term instead of the first 6 months.
Diamond Dog, good posts. You are, I believe, correct. There are a lot, if not most, contractors working illegally. Revenue in various countries are getting interested, particularly the Germans and French. It is a certainty more will follow. I believe many contractors are going to be up the creak at some point, with both back tax repayments and punitive fines. Tax is a certainty, it can't be avoided forever.
Crankshaft, look at the big picture. It is in ryanairs interests to employ more pilots than required and ignore the contracts. Firstly, you pay for a TR (at enormous profit to ryr), so the hiring, far from a cost, is money in the bank. Then by paying you only for flying, you cost them nothing to have on the books and the flexibility of crew control is increased. Finally, as about 80% of contract pilots have no spine, nobody is gonna do anything as their contract is broken.
Contracts pilots are a huge reason the industry is f**ked. You may see it as a way in, but quite frankly what the attraction of being a pilot is any more is beyond me.
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Speaking to the UK Inland Revenue today I have been informed you CANNOT claim tax relief on your initial Type Rating costs, or any costs associated with it (accomodation, food, flights, etc)
The only time this would be allowed would be if RYR suddenly changed to Airbus and a situation arose where if we DIDN'T finance the rating we'd be out of jobs.
I'm still very interested in how Brookfield guys manage their taxes. For the record I intend on paying all my dues, and won't be clamming up on Pprune about what I pay and what I don't.
Horgy
The only time this would be allowed would be if RYR suddenly changed to Airbus and a situation arose where if we DIDN'T finance the rating we'd be out of jobs.
I'm still very interested in how Brookfield guys manage their taxes. For the record I intend on paying all my dues, and won't be clamming up on Pprune about what I pay and what I don't.
Horgy
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What I don't understand MrHorgy is off setting the initial fees against your tax.
Say for instance, you decided to go to college and learn plumbing. After qualification (same as people with fATPL), you then buy a new van, and a load of tools that you need to do the job to be a self-employed plumber. That initial outlay is no different than buying a type rating, travel costs, uniform and reval costs involved in joining Ryanair. They are all expenses that you need to spend, to do your job as a self-employed contract pilot, exactly the same as Bob the builder and his plumbing equipment. But yet, Bob can offset those expeneses against his earnings, pilots can't
The problem lies with how do you classify self-employment. AFAIK, you need to invoice more than one company throughout the year to qualify as self-employed. This is a matter between the IR and Ryanair / Brookfield, and I'm sure the IR's across Europe will close this loophole on FR in the future.
Of course the IR will tell you that you can't offset the expenses against your tax, but I'm sure a shrewd accountant can juggle the books accordingly.
Say for instance, you decided to go to college and learn plumbing. After qualification (same as people with fATPL), you then buy a new van, and a load of tools that you need to do the job to be a self-employed plumber. That initial outlay is no different than buying a type rating, travel costs, uniform and reval costs involved in joining Ryanair. They are all expenses that you need to spend, to do your job as a self-employed contract pilot, exactly the same as Bob the builder and his plumbing equipment. But yet, Bob can offset those expeneses against his earnings, pilots can't
The problem lies with how do you classify self-employment. AFAIK, you need to invoice more than one company throughout the year to qualify as self-employed. This is a matter between the IR and Ryanair / Brookfield, and I'm sure the IR's across Europe will close this loophole on FR in the future.
Of course the IR will tell you that you can't offset the expenses against your tax, but I'm sure a shrewd accountant can juggle the books accordingly.