Experience commensurate with age
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I was asking the question based on the fact that in a number of countries discrimination based on any aspect of age is illegal.
Of course there are still some countries where this may not be illegal.
Of course there are still some countries where this may not be illegal.
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It is a perfectly resonable requirement to have.
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Robert you didn't 'miss out on' a job; you were inadequately qualified by the conditions of your potential employer. Another way of putting that is that there were other people better qualified than you - and who the employer preferred. Do you really think legislation to outlaw a specification of 'experience commensurate with age' would have made any difference? You're dreaming!
Scroggs
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It's still discrimination. Scroggs may have painted it pink and stuck a chocolate on top, but it's still the same thing.
What if the qualification had been "Experience commensurate with race" or "religion" or "sex". If I decide women should have twice the hours of men for the same job to be "qualified" then then entire force of the EU would come crashing down on my business.
We've stamped on all of the other factors, so why is age different?
What if the qualification had been "Experience commensurate with race" or "religion" or "sex". If I decide women should have twice the hours of men for the same job to be "qualified" then then entire force of the EU would come crashing down on my business.
We've stamped on all of the other factors, so why is age different?
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if they told you that your age is a problem ,BY LAW it is discrimination, and I have heared in 2006, there will be an European law against age discrimination.
I think it is still national actually, any info about that?
I think this is disgusting to discriminate against age, but I think it is better to not to work for an airline which practice such discrimination against their employers...
you can still look for a lawer online, send your answer from the company and sue them, you can make some $$$$!!!!...I know that some people won because they were black!
in the USA, (they) you do not even (ask) or write your age on your CV....if you write your age , they wont hire you!you can not even post your picture...they can not ask if you are married or not, if you have kid,...
I think it is still national actually, any info about that?
I think this is disgusting to discriminate against age, but I think it is better to not to work for an airline which practice such discrimination against their employers...
you can still look for a lawer online, send your answer from the company and sue them, you can make some $$$$!!!!...I know that some people won because they were black!
in the USA, (they) you do not even (ask) or write your age on your CV....if you write your age , they wont hire you!you can not even post your picture...they can not ask if you are married or not, if you have kid,...
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It may be discrimination - as you see it - but you are not going to get rid of it by legislation. If an employer has a choice of applicants, he will accept those who best fit his requirements. If one of those requirements is that older candidates have a reasonable level of experience in the job, I doubt that any legislation could be framed to prevent that. You'll note that 'experience commensurate with age' does not mean that older people will not be employed; it means that older inexperienced people will not be employed.
When I look at the employment adverts in the Times or Independent for jobs offering salaries of >£35k (a typical jet FOs starting pay), I find that almost every one stipulates that some - sometimes lots of - experience in the relevant field is required. Are you suggesting that such requirements are somehow immoral?
I have no doubt that you will counter that if an employer is prepared to take young inexperienced people, he should take 'old' inexperienced people. However, legislation limits the age to which he may employ pilots - 60 years of age for a captain. Therefore the employer is entitled to argue that he should be able to expect a reasonable return of service once a pilot has completed his training in the airline. That training is arguably not complete until a pilot is on line as a captain.
Please understand I am not arguing in order to support this position; I am arguing in order to explain it. At the end of the day, if an employer doesn't want you - for whatever reason - nothing you can do will change that.
Scroggs
When I look at the employment adverts in the Times or Independent for jobs offering salaries of >£35k (a typical jet FOs starting pay), I find that almost every one stipulates that some - sometimes lots of - experience in the relevant field is required. Are you suggesting that such requirements are somehow immoral?
I have no doubt that you will counter that if an employer is prepared to take young inexperienced people, he should take 'old' inexperienced people. However, legislation limits the age to which he may employ pilots - 60 years of age for a captain. Therefore the employer is entitled to argue that he should be able to expect a reasonable return of service once a pilot has completed his training in the airline. That training is arguably not complete until a pilot is on line as a captain.
Please understand I am not arguing in order to support this position; I am arguing in order to explain it. At the end of the day, if an employer doesn't want you - for whatever reason - nothing you can do will change that.
Scroggs
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Scroggs,
In the distinct majority of those cases (certainly in any IT, consultancy or business analysis related field), you will find that the prejudice against lack of experience and ample age does not affect the candidates chance of an interview. What does affect the chances of an interview is the right combination of experience, qualification and track record. The latter is essential for the former, qualifications are usually only required to bolster lack of experience. In the context cited so far in this thread, the 'youngster' and the 'oldie' have the same experience/qualficiations but the oldie is given the heave-ho soley on age grounds.
I find that almost every one stipulates that some - sometimes lots of - experience in the relevant field is required. Are you suggesting that such requirements are somehow immoral?
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 12th Oct 2005 at 13:32.
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If a 23yo gets into the airline with 800 hours and I dont get a look in with several thousand hours in my late 30's because I dont meet age/experience criteria how is it fair?
This other person did not have better "quals or experience"than me.
We are of course assuming that all other criteria were of equal standing.
This other person did not have better "quals or experience"than me.
We are of course assuming that all other criteria were of equal standing.
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Robert, I don't know what your experience consists of, nor what employer you were applying to or what their requirements were. It may well be that, individually, you have a case for discrimination, or would have, if legislation was in place to support your claim. I suspect, however, that it would be very difficult to prove as so many factors are involved in the decision whether to employ someone or not.
In a situation where there are far more applicants than jobs, it is inevitable that there will be many disappointed individuals. Some of those may be so disaffected that they will claim discrimination in some way or other - indeed, it's now become pretty standard to have to field several claims of discrimination after any employment competition. The vast majority of these claims are frivolous and unfounded, and stand no chance of support in law.
It is relatively easy to defend the criteria used to select people in most complex professional jobs, and extremely difficult to demonstrate that the sole reason for being denied employment was one specific and discriminatory criterion. If an employer doesn't feel that you fit his requirements, he can refuse to employ you. It's his company, and he has (in this case) several other candidates who may better fit his criteria. If the issue is age, so long as he can show that he has in the past employed people of various ages, I suspect that no case against him would stand. If he has a record, on the other hand, of never employing anyone over, say, 25, there may be a case to answer - if the employer cannot demonstrate that age combined with relative inexperience is a problem. Unfortunately for those who would argue otherwise, the military have demonstrated on several occasions that teaching older pilots is problemmatic, and thus have set their maximum age of pilot recruitment at (funnily enough) 25.
I'm not saying that age discrimination doesn't exist. What I am saying is, even with legislation, it will be extremely difficult to prove, especially as research backs the contention that older pilots are more difficult to train. This will be presented as a safety issue, and once the magic word 'safety' is uttered, all other arguments become secondary.
You may have the financial muscle, determination and stamina to attempt to argue your case through the layers of the legal system - once legislation is enacted. I wish you luck. However, I have considerable doubts of your chances of success. But I am not a legal man. If you'd like a (much) more authorititive opinion of your position, you might like to try and talk to Flying Lawyer, Pprune's own tame legal expert. A short search should find him!
Scroggs
In a situation where there are far more applicants than jobs, it is inevitable that there will be many disappointed individuals. Some of those may be so disaffected that they will claim discrimination in some way or other - indeed, it's now become pretty standard to have to field several claims of discrimination after any employment competition. The vast majority of these claims are frivolous and unfounded, and stand no chance of support in law.
It is relatively easy to defend the criteria used to select people in most complex professional jobs, and extremely difficult to demonstrate that the sole reason for being denied employment was one specific and discriminatory criterion. If an employer doesn't feel that you fit his requirements, he can refuse to employ you. It's his company, and he has (in this case) several other candidates who may better fit his criteria. If the issue is age, so long as he can show that he has in the past employed people of various ages, I suspect that no case against him would stand. If he has a record, on the other hand, of never employing anyone over, say, 25, there may be a case to answer - if the employer cannot demonstrate that age combined with relative inexperience is a problem. Unfortunately for those who would argue otherwise, the military have demonstrated on several occasions that teaching older pilots is problemmatic, and thus have set their maximum age of pilot recruitment at (funnily enough) 25.
I'm not saying that age discrimination doesn't exist. What I am saying is, even with legislation, it will be extremely difficult to prove, especially as research backs the contention that older pilots are more difficult to train. This will be presented as a safety issue, and once the magic word 'safety' is uttered, all other arguments become secondary.
You may have the financial muscle, determination and stamina to attempt to argue your case through the layers of the legal system - once legislation is enacted. I wish you luck. However, I have considerable doubts of your chances of success. But I am not a legal man. If you'd like a (much) more authorititive opinion of your position, you might like to try and talk to Flying Lawyer, Pprune's own tame legal expert. A short search should find him!
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A320rider: Were not in USA, thank God, so we can disregard their outrageous system.. next they won't allow you to write your name on your C.V for fear that one's ethnic background may be presumed from their 'GIVEN' names.
This ludacrous P.C crap, the system is abused so people can use it to their advantage. Of course discrimination should be eliminated but I would like to think in the U.K that operators genuinely employ those they feel will be most beneficial to their company. Are we going to sue BA because they only recruit Intergrated approved students and not Modular.
Robert, I am not aware of your personal circumstances. There is an ideology that older pilots (irrespective of experience) are harder to train and that younger pilots are more able and willing to adapt to change. This of course is an unfair stereotype and thus discrimination.. like saying generally women are not good at reading maps and therefore should not fly, ridiculous stereotypes that hold no substance. An individual should be judged on their own merits, period.
Age, however, does bring in one issue, legal retirement age. An airline wants to make the most of their employees, particularly in these competitive times. Every airline looks at an F/O as a potential Captain, makes sense. Therefore, if you went to BA (MINIMUM time to command is about 10 years), retirement age of 55. You can see it is not really worth taking on somebody over the age of 40 who hasn't got major airline experience. And this ideology is NOT discrimination, but mere common sense. I hope for your circumstances Robert you were in the latter case, otherwise you may have been robbed
74 Downind
This ludacrous P.C crap, the system is abused so people can use it to their advantage. Of course discrimination should be eliminated but I would like to think in the U.K that operators genuinely employ those they feel will be most beneficial to their company. Are we going to sue BA because they only recruit Intergrated approved students and not Modular.
Robert, I am not aware of your personal circumstances. There is an ideology that older pilots (irrespective of experience) are harder to train and that younger pilots are more able and willing to adapt to change. This of course is an unfair stereotype and thus discrimination.. like saying generally women are not good at reading maps and therefore should not fly, ridiculous stereotypes that hold no substance. An individual should be judged on their own merits, period.
Age, however, does bring in one issue, legal retirement age. An airline wants to make the most of their employees, particularly in these competitive times. Every airline looks at an F/O as a potential Captain, makes sense. Therefore, if you went to BA (MINIMUM time to command is about 10 years), retirement age of 55. You can see it is not really worth taking on somebody over the age of 40 who hasn't got major airline experience. And this ideology is NOT discrimination, but mere common sense. I hope for your circumstances Robert you were in the latter case, otherwise you may have been robbed
74 Downind
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i'm missing out on every job that i've applied for. maybe my experience/age is too high or so :S guys aged 35/300 hrs do get interview. I get nothing with 22/600+.
Anybody out there who does pick up guys with my age/experience or should I just sit and wait working an office job until I am 28 years old
Anybody out there who does pick up guys with my age/experience or should I just sit and wait working an office job until I am 28 years old
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747 Downwind I admire and support your campaign against political correctness, but I'd like to correct a couple of your contentions:
BA don't take only integrated graduates. They take pilots from a variety of backgrounds.
Actually, both of these 'stereotypes' have a considerable basis in fact. Over many, many years, the RAF (among others) have shown on several occasions that, in general, older people are less successful at assimilating complex training than younger people. Experience can completely offset this disadvantage, however. As for the stereotype that 'women [are] not good at reading maps', this is beased on the fact that - in general - women are less spatially aware than men. This is not wishful thinking, nor an unfounded misogynist remark; it is fact. You are quite correct when you state that we should assess the individual rather than the generalisation. However, you should not be surprised when observation reveals that the generalisations are born out by experience!
Your final point about progression to command echoes something I said in an earlier post, and is quite correct. What cut-off age an airline applies will vary with the experience of the applicant and foreknowledge of upcoming legislation, combined with the expected time to command. For instance, in BA the expected time to command is 12 to 15 years, which would support your age 40 cut-off. However, the retirement age will increase from 55 to 60 next year, which means that a cut-off of around 45 is sensible (in fact it's 47, I believe). Because of the rather long time to command, and the availability of excellent short-haul training sectors, BA are happy to recruit ab-initio pilots - and imply that they will recruit older pilots with limited hours because (my interpretation) they believe their selection procedures will weed out those who won't make it. Other, smaller, airlines can't afford such a detailed pre-employment assessment procedure and so, as they have lots and lots of applicants, will reject many on the basis of generalisations - including those that we have discussed. Is that discrimination? Or is it just coarse but sensible filtering?
Scroggs
Are we going to sue BA because they only recruit Intergrated approved students and not Modular.
There is an ideology that older pilots (irrespective of experience) are harder to train and that younger pilots are more able and willing to adapt to change. This of course is an unfair stereotype and thus discrimination.. like saying generally women are not good at reading maps and therefore should not fly, ridiculous stereotypes that hold no substance.
Your final point about progression to command echoes something I said in an earlier post, and is quite correct. What cut-off age an airline applies will vary with the experience of the applicant and foreknowledge of upcoming legislation, combined with the expected time to command. For instance, in BA the expected time to command is 12 to 15 years, which would support your age 40 cut-off. However, the retirement age will increase from 55 to 60 next year, which means that a cut-off of around 45 is sensible (in fact it's 47, I believe). Because of the rather long time to command, and the availability of excellent short-haul training sectors, BA are happy to recruit ab-initio pilots - and imply that they will recruit older pilots with limited hours because (my interpretation) they believe their selection procedures will weed out those who won't make it. Other, smaller, airlines can't afford such a detailed pre-employment assessment procedure and so, as they have lots and lots of applicants, will reject many on the basis of generalisations - including those that we have discussed. Is that discrimination? Or is it just coarse but sensible filtering?
Scroggs
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Well, now that I've calmed down a bit I realise that I have not been too clear in my original posts.
Firstly, I recieved a reject letter before sitting any interview or sim check. This letter categorically states that my application will not be considered because I do not meet the age/experience criteria.
Secondly this airline is NOT UK based, so it is evident legislation may not cover my situation.
I used to fly in Oz where it was brought to my attention that the legacy carrier there gets round this illegal criteria (in Oz) but stating your appication is not competitive.
I was angry for a couple of days now I'm over it, I guess it all part of the wonderful world of aviation. Many thanks for those informative replies
.
Rob
P.S Scroggs I've got 2800 hrs, mostly TP (1500), JAA and CASA licensed and I'm 38.
Firstly, I recieved a reject letter before sitting any interview or sim check. This letter categorically states that my application will not be considered because I do not meet the age/experience criteria.
Secondly this airline is NOT UK based, so it is evident legislation may not cover my situation.
I used to fly in Oz where it was brought to my attention that the legacy carrier there gets round this illegal criteria (in Oz) but stating your appication is not competitive.
I was angry for a couple of days now I'm over it, I guess it all part of the wonderful world of aviation. Many thanks for those informative replies
.Rob
P.S Scroggs I've got 2800 hrs, mostly TP (1500), JAA and CASA licensed and I'm 38.
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Hi Rob,
yes, there are undoubtedly some airlines (even in UK) who would regard your qualifications as unsuitable for their operation - mine is one, though your age is not a factor.
As you've realised, it is very easy for an employer to disguise his real reasons for rejecting an applicant; it's paradoxically somewhat refreshing to see that the airline you applied to was at least honest about why they rejected you! As you say, no legislation here - even if it existed - would help you with a foreign carrier.
Ulimately, you have to accept that these knockbacks will happen and move on. Doesn't mean you can't kick seven shades of sh*t out of the furniture at the time, though!
Good luck with your other applications!
Scroggs
yes, there are undoubtedly some airlines (even in UK) who would regard your qualifications as unsuitable for their operation - mine is one, though your age is not a factor.
As you've realised, it is very easy for an employer to disguise his real reasons for rejecting an applicant; it's paradoxically somewhat refreshing to see that the airline you applied to was at least honest about why they rejected you! As you say, no legislation here - even if it existed - would help you with a foreign carrier.
Ulimately, you have to accept that these knockbacks will happen and move on. Doesn't mean you can't kick seven shades of sh*t out of the furniture at the time, though!
Good luck with your other applications!
Scroggs
This is wearying but I'll repeat it anyway. BA do not discriminate. I'm the same age as you Robert and have been recently accepted by BA with 600-odd hrs of which 200-odd hrs were medium TP. Furthermore, I also trained through the modular route. I do not imagine for one second that I am unusual or exceptional so I think it only fair to stop bashing airlines such as BA for being prejudiced when they clearly aren't.
Last edited by Megaton; 13th Oct 2005 at 07:19.
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Rob, when I was 25, I was to young, 13 years later and thousand hours in my log, I am now to old.
when I finished my training, a company told me I was to experimented to fly a jet, ...but I have never been in a jet(!!!???).
the problem is the kind of answer you receive, can really upset you.
in time of crisis, employers will tell you any BS to not employ you....
one company told me I have to be a scientific,...(???)
one wrote me:"we dont want you"
some want you live 30 minutes from the airport,....
some companies ask you to pay to work...
a company asked me to speak french, german, dutch, ....25 years old, 10 years experience, 3000h jet,.
all BS!!!!
when I finished my training, a company told me I was to experimented to fly a jet, ...but I have never been in a jet(!!!???).
the problem is the kind of answer you receive, can really upset you.
in time of crisis, employers will tell you any BS to not employ you....
one company told me I have to be a scientific,...(???)
one wrote me:"we dont want you"
some want you live 30 minutes from the airport,....
some companies ask you to pay to work...
a company asked me to speak french, german, dutch, ....25 years old, 10 years experience, 3000h jet,.
all BS!!!!
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Ham Phisted
I think you need to re-read my last post. I clearly state this was not a UK based airline and I have only just started applying to the "big boys". It just so happened that the 1st reply came from a foreign carrier who, I believed, discriminated against my age.
Since writing that 1st post (in the heat of the moment) I have had to clarify that this would not happen in the UK due to legislation.
Where did I say that BA discriminate? Where did I say I was exceptional?
I was angry that I was not given the opportunity to show my attributes, nothing more, nothing less.
I think you need to re-read my last post. I clearly state this was not a UK based airline and I have only just started applying to the "big boys". It just so happened that the 1st reply came from a foreign carrier who, I believed, discriminated against my age.
Since writing that 1st post (in the heat of the moment) I have had to clarify that this would not happen in the UK due to legislation.
Where did I say that BA discriminate? Where did I say I was exceptional?
I was angry that I was not given the opportunity to show my attributes, nothing more, nothing less.