Experience commensurate with age
I don't need to re-read your post and I follow your argument quite satisfactorily. Furthermore, I note you never mentioned BA which is why I used the phrase:
.
I merely used BA as an example that wannabes have chosen to criticise, amongst others, for being discriminatory.
HWD,
Thank you. Obviously I'm over the moon.
airlines such as BA
I merely used BA as an example that wannabes have chosen to criticise, amongst others, for being discriminatory.
HWD,
Thank you. Obviously I'm over the moon.
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So would you agree that I have the right to "bash" an airline that has clearly discriminated against me?
I have it in writing "sorry but you do not meet the experience commensurate with age criteria". The evidence is in my hot little hand.
I agree with HWD and congratulate you, because amongst other things you've demonstrated that this type of behaviour does not happen in this country.
I have it in writing "sorry but you do not meet the experience commensurate with age criteria". The evidence is in my hot little hand.
I agree with HWD and congratulate you, because amongst other things you've demonstrated that this type of behaviour does not happen in this country.
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Maybe it was just because they didn't like me for whatever reason, but I recently got a letter from the Pilot Recruitment Flight Manager at BA which read:
"Currently, British Airways is only recruiting Self-Sponsored Pilots who have graduated from a Full Time Integrated ab-initio course at an approved college within the previous six months."
Seems clear enough to me where they recruit low hour inexperienced pilots from. To be fair to them though, he did go on to say that once I had a few hundred hours on an aircraft with a MTOM greater than 10 tonnes then I was welcome to apply for their DEP scheme, which is where I'm assuming you are at just now, Ham Phisted.
PW
"Currently, British Airways is only recruiting Self-Sponsored Pilots who have graduated from a Full Time Integrated ab-initio course at an approved college within the previous six months."
Seems clear enough to me where they recruit low hour inexperienced pilots from. To be fair to them though, he did go on to say that once I had a few hundred hours on an aircraft with a MTOM greater than 10 tonnes then I was welcome to apply for their DEP scheme, which is where I'm assuming you are at just now, Ham Phisted.
PW
That's right. I had approx 400 hrs SEP/MEP and 200-300 hrs turboprop over 25 tonnes.
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Ham can you point out where anyone was criticising BA in this thread? Or have you just got so used to seeing BA being criticised that you automatically assumed that any mention of BA must be critical? - Oh, and Well Done!!
Penworth your missive from BA...
....isn't entirely accurate, as they are also currently recruiting from CTC - which is a modular, not integrated, FTO. I believe they have also recently taken one or two other people (Edit again: such as Ham, above) who neither fit the quoted description above, nor quite fit the minimum DEP criteria. All of which is hopeful, I'm sure you'll agree!
Scroggs
Edit: I hate it when it does that! (Puts two posts together without asking!)
Penworth your missive from BA...
"Currently, British Airways is only recruiting Self-Sponsored Pilots who have graduated from a Full Time Integrated ab-initio course at an approved college within the previous six months."
Scroggs
Edit: I hate it when it does that! (Puts two posts together without asking!)
Last edited by scroggs; 13th Oct 2005 at 11:24.
Never said anyone was criticising BA in particular. It was the general thrust of the argument that airlines have been discriminatory that I was trying to debunk. I've perhaps been fortunate in that I've been for 3 job interviews in the last 11 months and have been offered employment by each of those airlines.
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Ok, fair enough. I do think that age discrimination does exist, though I've been trying to show that it's very difficult to prove - or even to notice! In Rob's case, bizarrely, the (foreign) airline was quite brazen about it. I think that those few UK airlines where such discrimination is practised are rather more subtle about it! I doubt, sadly, that the legislation due next year will make a great deal of difference in practical terms as far as low-experience pilots are concerned.
Scroggs
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Scroggs,
Sorry for the late reply being bit busy, almost forgot that I had originally posted.
Quite, BA do employ modular trained, I was somewhat lacking depth in that statement.. the implication was that there is an evident bias towards integrated students at BA (though that is their policy and I have nothing against that if it works for them)
Indeed there are degrees of truth in the statements regarding women and older pilots which I mentioned, I just didn't want to be too direct as some people have the habit of getting offended and taking a statement as a personal insult and a general discrimination against all their 'kind'. Thus, bringing me to my final point: is it discrimination? I would say NO, but it is a stereotype that may be wrong for that particular individual which is unfair, but hey that is life!
I get looked at suspiciously sometimes because I am a young male; and the elderly, police officers, the general public will have assumptions/stereotypes suggesting that I may be a criminal.. part of life, just got to deal with it. However, there is truth in it.. young males are the biggest group of criminal offenders. Therefore, as you mentioned these statements do hold substance but the present government seems to be on a crusade, albeit one of contradiction, to eliminate these logical ideologies.. thus I was merely being cautious with my words
747 Downwind
Sorry for the late reply being bit busy, almost forgot that I had originally posted.
Quite, BA do employ modular trained, I was somewhat lacking depth in that statement.. the implication was that there is an evident bias towards integrated students at BA (though that is their policy and I have nothing against that if it works for them)
Indeed there are degrees of truth in the statements regarding women and older pilots which I mentioned, I just didn't want to be too direct as some people have the habit of getting offended and taking a statement as a personal insult and a general discrimination against all their 'kind'. Thus, bringing me to my final point: is it discrimination? I would say NO, but it is a stereotype that may be wrong for that particular individual which is unfair, but hey that is life!
I get looked at suspiciously sometimes because I am a young male; and the elderly, police officers, the general public will have assumptions/stereotypes suggesting that I may be a criminal.. part of life, just got to deal with it. However, there is truth in it.. young males are the biggest group of criminal offenders. Therefore, as you mentioned these statements do hold substance but the present government seems to be on a crusade, albeit one of contradiction, to eliminate these logical ideologies.. thus I was merely being cautious with my words
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Don't make it up
Sorry for the delay but this is directed at a post a few before.
Not all military pilots join the air force!
My point however is that it is not correct to state that the maximum age for enterting military flying training is 25. Army, Navy and Royal Marine pilots have different age limits.
The facts are a soldier, marine or sailor who is non-commisioned can enter flying training up until their 32nd birthday and an officer must commence the course before their 30th birthday.
I for one and many who are now subsquently flying civilian hardware had no problems with elementary, basic or advanced courses at 28yrs old in my case or across our age range from 21 to 33yrs old on my pilots course.
Before anyone complains that this is fly rotary it should be clear that there was historically a reason why the RAF flying schools were called numbers 1,2 and 3 FTS and why they were in that order ! (Prior to them becoming tri-service)
I'm not advocating that you can learn as quickly at 45 as you can at 21 but anyone doing the math can see that you are going to get 20 years service out of a 40 year old and the chances of them leaving for another firm past 50 are very small so they are actually getting better job security for thier money.
The 25 year old on the other hand is likely to leave at the 1st available opportunity for the anything bigger or shinier.
I do to some extent see why an airline wants a 25 year old rather than a 45 year old but frankly I can't see how it benefits the airline to have an integrated course student who is 25 and was force fed a course making it relatively easy to pass (due to continuity) over a modular course student who probably had to hold down a job and motivate themselves and still acheive the same standards who is 35 and has 800hrs.
I'm sure someone will tell me though....
Not all military pilots join the air force!
My point however is that it is not correct to state that the maximum age for enterting military flying training is 25. Army, Navy and Royal Marine pilots have different age limits.
The facts are a soldier, marine or sailor who is non-commisioned can enter flying training up until their 32nd birthday and an officer must commence the course before their 30th birthday.
I for one and many who are now subsquently flying civilian hardware had no problems with elementary, basic or advanced courses at 28yrs old in my case or across our age range from 21 to 33yrs old on my pilots course.
Before anyone complains that this is fly rotary it should be clear that there was historically a reason why the RAF flying schools were called numbers 1,2 and 3 FTS and why they were in that order ! (Prior to them becoming tri-service)
I'm not advocating that you can learn as quickly at 45 as you can at 21 but anyone doing the math can see that you are going to get 20 years service out of a 40 year old and the chances of them leaving for another firm past 50 are very small so they are actually getting better job security for thier money.
The 25 year old on the other hand is likely to leave at the 1st available opportunity for the anything bigger or shinier.
I do to some extent see why an airline wants a 25 year old rather than a 45 year old but frankly I can't see how it benefits the airline to have an integrated course student who is 25 and was force fed a course making it relatively easy to pass (due to continuity) over a modular course student who probably had to hold down a job and motivate themselves and still acheive the same standards who is 35 and has 800hrs.
I'm sure someone will tell me though....
Last edited by Vortex Thing; 21st Oct 2005 at 18:12.
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DO YOU HAVE BLACK PEOPLE IN ENGLAND?
Illegal immigrants
High Unemployment
Women Pilots
Crime
Drugs
The Worlds Favourite Airline
Are you for real???
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Vortex Thing I'm sorry but you are comparing apples with pears. The Royal Air Force and Royal Navy will only accept ab-initio entrants to pilot training up to the age of 25 years and 11 months. Until last year, the RAF's maximum age for pilot recruitment was 23 years 11 months. It may well be that the RN and the Army will consider branch changes from within up to 30 or so, but that is from people they know well, not people who have just walked through the door.
As for your comment about 1, 2 and 3 FTS, I'm not sure what you're getting at. When I left, less than 10 years ago, there were 7 RAF-only FTSs (spookily enough, 1 to 7), and when I joined - several years earlier - there were rather more, though their names weren't necessarily 'X FTS'. The FTS numbering had nothing to do with any other Service.
To your arguments about return of service from a 40-year old vs a 20-year old pilot; to some extent you are correct, but many airlines would rather risk losing some and getting more service out of those that remain - up to 40 years in exceptional cases. Those airlines that recognise they are feeders for larger organisations just want the best people for their purposes for the brief period they get to keep them. What they consider the 'best' people may well be down to the prejudices of the chief pilot/airline owner.
The fact remains, however many 'obvious facts' you trot out, that there is a problem for older ab-initio pilots securing employment, and it would be wrong of me to try and conceal or disguise that fact.
Scroggs
As for your comment about 1, 2 and 3 FTS, I'm not sure what you're getting at. When I left, less than 10 years ago, there were 7 RAF-only FTSs (spookily enough, 1 to 7), and when I joined - several years earlier - there were rather more, though their names weren't necessarily 'X FTS'. The FTS numbering had nothing to do with any other Service.
To your arguments about return of service from a 40-year old vs a 20-year old pilot; to some extent you are correct, but many airlines would rather risk losing some and getting more service out of those that remain - up to 40 years in exceptional cases. Those airlines that recognise they are feeders for larger organisations just want the best people for their purposes for the brief period they get to keep them. What they consider the 'best' people may well be down to the prejudices of the chief pilot/airline owner.
The fact remains, however many 'obvious facts' you trot out, that there is a problem for older ab-initio pilots securing employment, and it would be wrong of me to try and conceal or disguise that fact.
Scroggs
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It's actually i wider subject in some various ways, but i'll start by saying i have just landed a job straight onto jets and am in my late 30's so it CAN be done(1600 hrs).
When i attanded my first medical it was pointed out that my height to weight ration wasn't quite the norm, ahh i'm too short i thought. At my interview this was pointed out and the question asked of me was how did i think this might affect my appearance to the general public!
My response was that the general public din't see women or black people as pilots as a sterotype and was THIS same question posed to them at an interview?
The question i believe was not meant to be insulting etc and my response was accepted(i got the job)
As a subject i can only say that the manner i ride a pushbike now(late 30's) is considerably better than when i was 21. Infact i'll never know how i managed to get to 22 but maybe that was just me as a young man. Although my memory and brain won't be as good or fast as the 20's, my priorities have considerably changed especially now i have a family and this i refelcted i believe in my flying,driving and when i can be bothered cycle riding.
I hope everyone gets the phone call offering them a job, but if it aint coming and you haven't got the hours......get them!
Regards Tonker
When i attanded my first medical it was pointed out that my height to weight ration wasn't quite the norm, ahh i'm too short i thought. At my interview this was pointed out and the question asked of me was how did i think this might affect my appearance to the general public!
My response was that the general public din't see women or black people as pilots as a sterotype and was THIS same question posed to them at an interview?
The question i believe was not meant to be insulting etc and my response was accepted(i got the job)
As a subject i can only say that the manner i ride a pushbike now(late 30's) is considerably better than when i was 21. Infact i'll never know how i managed to get to 22 but maybe that was just me as a young man. Although my memory and brain won't be as good or fast as the 20's, my priorities have considerably changed especially now i have a family and this i refelcted i believe in my flying,driving and when i can be bothered cycle riding.
I hope everyone gets the phone call offering them a job, but if it aint coming and you haven't got the hours......get them!
Regards Tonker
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Does anyone know how long BA are likely to recruit low houred, self sponsored Ab Initio pilots for?
I am 36, and would willingly pay for a course if there was a snippet of hope of getting in with BA.
Don't get me wrong, current job is fab, but "Experience commensurate with age" suggests that airlines won't touch you at my age with minimal hours.
While we are on the subject, perhaps flying experience and age might be a bit against us oldies, but what about the skills and behaviour characterisitics that our current jobs can more than evidence that would be directly transferrable onto a flight deck? Doesn't that help as well?
I am 36, and would willingly pay for a course if there was a snippet of hope of getting in with BA.
Don't get me wrong, current job is fab, but "Experience commensurate with age" suggests that airlines won't touch you at my age with minimal hours.
While we are on the subject, perhaps flying experience and age might be a bit against us oldies, but what about the skills and behaviour characterisitics that our current jobs can more than evidence that would be directly transferrable onto a flight deck? Doesn't that help as well?
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A320 Rider: The answer to your question is YES
BA do have at least one black pilot. Funnily enough he now flies the aircraft your screen name refers to. I am glad to say that he is an exceptional pilot who I trained with who thoroughly deserves his wings at BA.
Of course, I only know of about ten bods at BA currently and one would think that out of a workforce of maybe 2000 pilots there are possibly more than just the one black pilot that I know of. Nevertheless, A320 rider, you can rest assured and sleep well knowing that BA does have at least one black pilot
74 Downwind
BA do have at least one black pilot. Funnily enough he now flies the aircraft your screen name refers to. I am glad to say that he is an exceptional pilot who I trained with who thoroughly deserves his wings at BA.
Of course, I only know of about ten bods at BA currently and one would think that out of a workforce of maybe 2000 pilots there are possibly more than just the one black pilot that I know of. Nevertheless, A320 rider, you can rest assured and sleep well knowing that BA does have at least one black pilot
74 Downwind
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What exactly does experience comeasurate with age mean???
If I am 35 years old and I have 10 000 hrs of C150 time does that mean I have experience comeasurate with age? Or if I am 35 years old and have tt1000 hrs, of which 800 on Concorde, would I not meet the requirements due to low total time?
Is there any generally accepted definition of the term?
If I am 35 years old and I have 10 000 hrs of C150 time does that mean I have experience comeasurate with age? Or if I am 35 years old and have tt1000 hrs, of which 800 on Concorde, would I not meet the requirements due to low total time?
Is there any generally accepted definition of the term?
