Why this forum is not for experienced pilots! - Discussion
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I am an experienced pilot, and I still wannabe one, but maybe in a different place or aircraft. Perhaps you've forgotten what it's like to be a wannabe. You're basically telling everyone that this industry has enough people already and all young newcomers must f*** right off!
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Then why ain't it called First interviews, jobs and sponsorships?
I am an experienced pilot, and I still wannabe one, but maybe in a different place or aircraft. Perhaps you've forgotten what it's like to be a wannabe. You're basically telling everyone that this industry has enough people already and all young newcomers must f*** right off!
Scroggs
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How is the forum supposed to be of any use, unless the occasional 'insider' posts something?
The stated policy is effectively saying that once you've made it to an airline, you're not welcome to come back and post advice to those who would like to follow. That's a bit harsh isn't it?
The stated policy is effectively saying that once you've made it to an airline, you're not welcome to come back and post advice to those who would like to follow. That's a bit harsh isn't it?
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How is the forum supposed to be of any use, unless the occasional 'insider' posts something?
The stated policy is effectively saying that once you've made it to an airline, you're not welcome to come back and post advice to those who would like to follow. That's a bit harsh isn't it?
The stated policy is effectively saying that once you've made it to an airline, you're not welcome to come back and post advice to those who would like to follow. That's a bit harsh isn't it?
Scroggs
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Scroggs
When i saw you post this one i thought i was a can of worm just waiting to be opened.
My only surprise was that it took so long for people to bite.
It can be argued that this forum is for all pilots looking for a job both new and experienced as the forum name is Interviews Jobs and Sponsorships. But yes the questions about a particular airline and its T & C's do belong elsewhere.
Im sure the less experienced and those without jobs appreciate the advice both positive and neagtive from those higher up the experience ladder.
Maybe the title of you thread could be modified to make it clearer as the original certainly caught my eye but for the wrong reasons.
When i saw you post this one i thought i was a can of worm just waiting to be opened.
My only surprise was that it took so long for people to bite.
It can be argued that this forum is for all pilots looking for a job both new and experienced as the forum name is Interviews Jobs and Sponsorships. But yes the questions about a particular airline and its T & C's do belong elsewhere.
Im sure the less experienced and those without jobs appreciate the advice both positive and neagtive from those higher up the experience ladder.
Maybe the title of you thread could be modified to make it clearer as the original certainly caught my eye but for the wrong reasons.
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Flaps This forum is within the Wannabes section of Pprune. From the Pprune Forums front page, the Wannabes section description begins: 'The Wannabes forums are for those aspiring to join our fraternity of professional aviators with the best view in the house'. The description of the Interviews, Jobs & Sponsorships forum is as follows: 'Do ya feel lucky, Punk? Well do ya? If so, here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or employing, their selection criteria, and where those oh so elusive first jobs can be spotted in the wild. Watch out for the tumbleweeds...' Which part of these descriptions gives you the impression that either of the Wannabes forums are for experienced pilots?
The section of the site that deals with experienced aircrew and their issues is the Flight Deck Forums. Within that section, the forum Terms and Endearments deals with employment and related issues. I had asked for it to be renamed less equivocally, but that request was refused, which is a shame. That doesn't alter the fact that professional, experienced pilots who post seeking informations about jobs in this forum patently can't read, and thus clutter up this forum with traffic inappropriate to its purpose.
Scroggs
The section of the site that deals with experienced aircrew and their issues is the Flight Deck Forums. Within that section, the forum Terms and Endearments deals with employment and related issues. I had asked for it to be renamed less equivocally, but that request was refused, which is a shame. That doesn't alter the fact that professional, experienced pilots who post seeking informations about jobs in this forum patently can't read, and thus clutter up this forum with traffic inappropriate to its purpose.
Scroggs
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Scroggs
I dont disagree with your points.
But the tittle of your thread was bound to court some controversy.
I looked at the title and thought thats a bit cheeky when many experienced pilots have contributed to the wannabes section dishing out much appreciated advice on how to get that "elusive first job" or the next job up the evolutionary scale. And yes i do understand what your saying about gathering information on a particular airline from the other forums.
Take Localiser's excellent post on the BA interview process, for all the wannabe BA pilots or getting that elusive First jet job it was invalauble.
As i said on the last post its the tone of the thread title. I dont expect you to change it but as you can see it has raised a few eyebrows.
I dont disagree with your points.
But the tittle of your thread was bound to court some controversy.
I looked at the title and thought thats a bit cheeky when many experienced pilots have contributed to the wannabes section dishing out much appreciated advice on how to get that "elusive first job" or the next job up the evolutionary scale. And yes i do understand what your saying about gathering information on a particular airline from the other forums.
Take Localiser's excellent post on the BA interview process, for all the wannabe BA pilots or getting that elusive First jet job it was invalauble.
As i said on the last post its the tone of the thread title. I dont expect you to change it but as you can see it has raised a few eyebrows.
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Scroggs,
I fully agree with you that it should be fairly obvious to all who actually bother to read the text within the yellow band (as pilots we are expected to read what things do before utilising them), that 'wannabee' infers someone with no experience as a professional pilot, hence any interview and job information within this forum should be solely for the attention of the non-professionals, and that any information on jobs and interviews exclusively for the attention of fellow professional pilots should be posted in Terms and Endearments.
However, can you please confirm that you do not mind any professional pilots - who have jumped all the fences (some more recently than others) and, due to their position within the airlines, may have information pertaining to the wannabee - posting on this forum, or otherwise, as this is an area where confusion may arise, I believe?
Thanks
VC10 Rib22
I fully agree with you that it should be fairly obvious to all who actually bother to read the text within the yellow band (as pilots we are expected to read what things do before utilising them), that 'wannabee' infers someone with no experience as a professional pilot, hence any interview and job information within this forum should be solely for the attention of the non-professionals, and that any information on jobs and interviews exclusively for the attention of fellow professional pilots should be posted in Terms and Endearments.
However, can you please confirm that you do not mind any professional pilots - who have jumped all the fences (some more recently than others) and, due to their position within the airlines, may have information pertaining to the wannabee - posting on this forum, or otherwise, as this is an area where confusion may arise, I believe?
Thanks
VC10 Rib22
Last edited by VC10 Rib22; 3rd Apr 2005 at 09:18.
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Hrumph
Of course ... how could I have been so inconsiderate ... it seems so obvious to me now that if I was a total stranger stumbling across PPRUNE in search of gen for some upcoming interview, the first place I would search would be "Terms and Endearment" because, after all, that's the place that's clearly signposted on the front page as "news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations"!!
And another thing, perhaps somebody could just elaborate on what makes a 'first job' seeker so different from a second or third job seeker, and why they deserve to have the forum all to themselves?
The sad truth is, that whenever most of us 'experienced' airline types log on here, we find that some highly desirable jet airline that's been rejecting our multiple-thousand hour CVs for the last 5 years, has just hired another couple dozen freshly minted OATS / CTC whippersnappers
In the face of the current employment climate / a.k.a. the onslaught of the 200 hour buy-a-type-rating brigade snapping up every decent jet job that's going in Britain these days anyway, perhaps before we start telling people who's allowed to stay in the forum and who has to go, we should first have a bit of a grown up debate as to who exactly constitutes a 'wannabe' and who doesn't?
When it comes to jet airlines, I certainly consider myself to be competing for exactly the same jobs as so many of those searching for their 'first' job and don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to take part in the discussion.
If you wish those of us with a few more hours to banish ourselves elsewhere every time we wish to discuss (for argument's sake) the interview process with some airline that's offering DE turboprop command positions, then cool, we can do that ... but then again, who exactly are we p!ssing off by conducting that conversation in here?
The fresh-out-of-flying-school brigade don't seem to mind, in fact I suspect most of them would rather that we continue to hang around ... or at least, every time I make some post discussing those kind of issues not relevant to first timers, I still seem to get a whole bunch of PM's from total strangers trying to get a CV put on the chief pilot's desk at my airline.
This forum has traditionally been about 1000% more active than 'Terms and Endearment' when it comes to getting the gen on interviews, regardless of what level the interviews are pitched at - most people just don't bother to surf T&E when they are handing out the interview debrief. So why the sudden change, is it just a trying-to-keep-the-forum-neat-and-tidy kind of a thing?
Maybe it's time to subdivide 'wannabes' again, into 'Training', 'Sponsorships' and 'Interviews' or something like that?
Of course ... how could I have been so inconsiderate ... it seems so obvious to me now that if I was a total stranger stumbling across PPRUNE in search of gen for some upcoming interview, the first place I would search would be "Terms and Endearment" because, after all, that's the place that's clearly signposted on the front page as "news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations"!!
And another thing, perhaps somebody could just elaborate on what makes a 'first job' seeker so different from a second or third job seeker, and why they deserve to have the forum all to themselves?
The sad truth is, that whenever most of us 'experienced' airline types log on here, we find that some highly desirable jet airline that's been rejecting our multiple-thousand hour CVs for the last 5 years, has just hired another couple dozen freshly minted OATS / CTC whippersnappers
In the face of the current employment climate / a.k.a. the onslaught of the 200 hour buy-a-type-rating brigade snapping up every decent jet job that's going in Britain these days anyway, perhaps before we start telling people who's allowed to stay in the forum and who has to go, we should first have a bit of a grown up debate as to who exactly constitutes a 'wannabe' and who doesn't?
When it comes to jet airlines, I certainly consider myself to be competing for exactly the same jobs as so many of those searching for their 'first' job and don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to take part in the discussion.
If you wish those of us with a few more hours to banish ourselves elsewhere every time we wish to discuss (for argument's sake) the interview process with some airline that's offering DE turboprop command positions, then cool, we can do that ... but then again, who exactly are we p!ssing off by conducting that conversation in here?
The fresh-out-of-flying-school brigade don't seem to mind, in fact I suspect most of them would rather that we continue to hang around ... or at least, every time I make some post discussing those kind of issues not relevant to first timers, I still seem to get a whole bunch of PM's from total strangers trying to get a CV put on the chief pilot's desk at my airline.
This forum has traditionally been about 1000% more active than 'Terms and Endearment' when it comes to getting the gen on interviews, regardless of what level the interviews are pitched at - most people just don't bother to surf T&E when they are handing out the interview debrief. So why the sudden change, is it just a trying-to-keep-the-forum-neat-and-tidy kind of a thing?
Maybe it's time to subdivide 'wannabes' again, into 'Training', 'Sponsorships' and 'Interviews' or something like that?
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There will be no further subdivision of Wannabes. I had asked for 'T&E' to be renamed to more accurately reflect its purpose and use, but that request was refused. That does not alter the policy for this forum. It will remain for those who are attempting to acquire their first professional pilot appointment. If a discussion strays into jobs a little further up the food chain, that doesn't mean it will automatically be binned or moved, but don't expect discussions about 747 jobs to remain here for long!
Scroggs
Scroggs
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I'm shaking my head here, and before i began to type, had my palms facing the sky. Why are flaps and luke arguing I thought.
I looked at their profiles. One is an airline pilot, the other just says pilot and J31 type. Nevertheless, can you not just save Scroggs his valuable time and not bother arguing about a point he has made more than 2 times?
This is wanabees. Its not where 'am'ees go. Please take a hike over to the Terms and Endearment.
I find it hard to comprehend why people spend such a long time posting a waste of time thread that will not change anything.
Scroggs...I'm glad you have to deal with this and not me.
*ponders as to the length my innocent post will survive*
Dan
and on the end...Luke said something about what defines a wanabee...why cant 'we flyers looking for 2nd or 3rd jobs' post here. Well, you just answered your own question!!!!! YOU ARE NOT A WANABEE LOOKING FOR THAT 'ELUSIVE FIRST FLYING JOB WITH THE BEST VIEW IN THE HOUSE'.
I looked at their profiles. One is an airline pilot, the other just says pilot and J31 type. Nevertheless, can you not just save Scroggs his valuable time and not bother arguing about a point he has made more than 2 times?
This is wanabees. Its not where 'am'ees go. Please take a hike over to the Terms and Endearment.
I find it hard to comprehend why people spend such a long time posting a waste of time thread that will not change anything.
Scroggs...I'm glad you have to deal with this and not me.
*ponders as to the length my innocent post will survive*
Dan
and on the end...Luke said something about what defines a wanabee...why cant 'we flyers looking for 2nd or 3rd jobs' post here. Well, you just answered your own question!!!!! YOU ARE NOT A WANABEE LOOKING FOR THAT 'ELUSIVE FIRST FLYING JOB WITH THE BEST VIEW IN THE HOUSE'.
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Tonic
Im sure that in your endeavours to be an airline pilot you have heard the phrase RTFQ and RTFA.
Read my posts again and then think about it then re-post.
I merely pointed out to Scroggs that his post may court some controversy and if you did read my post i agreed with him and that some q's should be in T & C's. Dont be in such a rush to start an argument that isn't there
Read this from the banner of the wannabees section.
Note: here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or EMPLOYING..................AND where those oh so elusive first jobs etc etc.
Once and for all TP.
1) My thoughts on this subject will not make scroggs et al change thier stance.
2) I never asked him to change or indeed disagreed with Scroggs.
3) People will still do it whatever you and i thinkas thats the nature of PPRUNE
4) I fly a lovely TP for an airline and im looking for the next job a jet job and find it useful sometimes to look in the wannabes section
Im sure that in your endeavours to be an airline pilot you have heard the phrase RTFQ and RTFA.
Read my posts again and then think about it then re-post.
I merely pointed out to Scroggs that his post may court some controversy and if you did read my post i agreed with him and that some q's should be in T & C's. Dont be in such a rush to start an argument that isn't there
Do ya feel lucky, Punk? Well do ya? If so, here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or employing, their selection criteria, and where those oh so elusive first jobs can be spotted in the wild. Watch out for the tumbleweeds...
Note: here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or EMPLOYING..................AND where those oh so elusive first jobs etc etc.
Once and for all TP.
1) My thoughts on this subject will not make scroggs et al change thier stance.
2) I never asked him to change or indeed disagreed with Scroggs.
3) People will still do it whatever you and i thinkas thats the nature of PPRUNE
4) I fly a lovely TP for an airline and im looking for the next job a jet job and find it useful sometimes to look in the wannabes section
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You know I can remember back in about 1997 when Danny first created 'wannabes', it was the first time that any sub forums were created in here (before that, the entire site consisted of R&N).
Me and Wee Weasley Welshman were pretty p!ssed off about the whole thing (at the time, I was a newly qualified FI and him just going through CPL training), and we protested bitterly at the time, along with a few others like Redsnail as well, because we all thought if they created a forum just for wannabes, we'd just be getting banished to our little corner where we wouldn't be able to chat to real live "airline pilots", ask questions / get answers from people who knew, and network with people who were already employed in the industry.
Funny how times change. When I was a wannabe looking for a job, I was very grateful for whatever interview knowledge I could gain, regardless of whether it was related to an airline I was targetting at that moment or not ... now it seems the wannabes wish to bite any experienced airline hands that wish to feed them, and make them bugger off to another forum.
I have a few good memories of wannabes over the years, the pages of arguments raging against people paying for their own MCCs when that first started happening in the '90s ... then the whole buy-a-type-rating thing in the '00s ... I can even remember the original ronchonner 'yellow dick tattoo' thread
I just feel that I have been one of the 'founding members' of wannabes and in my own little way have kind of helped to create the atmosphere in here over much of the last decade, I enjoy the craic (even though as it's turned into a big and less personable forum, it's gone the way of most big internet forums and slowly become over full of arrogant little pseudo patronizing ****s like Tonic who've been here for all of about 10 minutes and think they're mods and they own the place).
I'm sure flaps, redsnail, weasley and most of the other old timers feel the same, a certain sense of community here even though we've now moved a few steps higher up the career ladder.
I guess what I'm saying is that I am going to hang around here regardless of what anyone else says, and if I feel I have something to contribute I'll do so. Tonic if you don't like the inputs that current, knowledgeable airline captains bring to this forum, then feel free to put me on your ignore list and chat to all your other cool mates like spaceman1000.
I do appreciate, scroggs, having been a mod myself once upon a time (on a big non-flying related board) I do appreciate how hard it is at times to try and do your mod job in the face of continual bitching from the rank and file such as myself ... so if it matters to you so much that we don't discuss jobs not suitable for first timers in here, then have it your way, and I will do my best to comply.
However I still think you're making a mistake in asking us to go across to T&E. The fact is, that T&E at present is NOT set up as being a forum suitable for discussion of INTERVIEW processes at big airlines. Just looking around T&E as I write this, every single thread of the 30 or so on the first page is related to working conditions, pay or rostering, reminiescing about the good old days, and one thread seeking contact details for a particular airline. In other words they are discussing in there exactly what they have been told to discuss. There is not a single mention of interview/assessment topics at all.
So I would still appreciate if one or the other of the forums could be clearly marked as a place where interview processes for those kind of jobs could be discussed. Until such time as that, should I find myself in urgent need of interview/assessment gen for a particular airline I'm afraid I'll be posting in here, same as always.
Me and Wee Weasley Welshman were pretty p!ssed off about the whole thing (at the time, I was a newly qualified FI and him just going through CPL training), and we protested bitterly at the time, along with a few others like Redsnail as well, because we all thought if they created a forum just for wannabes, we'd just be getting banished to our little corner where we wouldn't be able to chat to real live "airline pilots", ask questions / get answers from people who knew, and network with people who were already employed in the industry.
Funny how times change. When I was a wannabe looking for a job, I was very grateful for whatever interview knowledge I could gain, regardless of whether it was related to an airline I was targetting at that moment or not ... now it seems the wannabes wish to bite any experienced airline hands that wish to feed them, and make them bugger off to another forum.
I have a few good memories of wannabes over the years, the pages of arguments raging against people paying for their own MCCs when that first started happening in the '90s ... then the whole buy-a-type-rating thing in the '00s ... I can even remember the original ronchonner 'yellow dick tattoo' thread
I just feel that I have been one of the 'founding members' of wannabes and in my own little way have kind of helped to create the atmosphere in here over much of the last decade, I enjoy the craic (even though as it's turned into a big and less personable forum, it's gone the way of most big internet forums and slowly become over full of arrogant little pseudo patronizing ****s like Tonic who've been here for all of about 10 minutes and think they're mods and they own the place).
I'm sure flaps, redsnail, weasley and most of the other old timers feel the same, a certain sense of community here even though we've now moved a few steps higher up the career ladder.
I guess what I'm saying is that I am going to hang around here regardless of what anyone else says, and if I feel I have something to contribute I'll do so. Tonic if you don't like the inputs that current, knowledgeable airline captains bring to this forum, then feel free to put me on your ignore list and chat to all your other cool mates like spaceman1000.
I do appreciate, scroggs, having been a mod myself once upon a time (on a big non-flying related board) I do appreciate how hard it is at times to try and do your mod job in the face of continual bitching from the rank and file such as myself ... so if it matters to you so much that we don't discuss jobs not suitable for first timers in here, then have it your way, and I will do my best to comply.
However I still think you're making a mistake in asking us to go across to T&E. The fact is, that T&E at present is NOT set up as being a forum suitable for discussion of INTERVIEW processes at big airlines. Just looking around T&E as I write this, every single thread of the 30 or so on the first page is related to working conditions, pay or rostering, reminiescing about the good old days, and one thread seeking contact details for a particular airline. In other words they are discussing in there exactly what they have been told to discuss. There is not a single mention of interview/assessment topics at all.
So I would still appreciate if one or the other of the forums could be clearly marked as a place where interview processes for those kind of jobs could be discussed. Until such time as that, should I find myself in urgent need of interview/assessment gen for a particular airline I'm afraid I'll be posting in here, same as always.
Last edited by Luke SkyToddler; 22nd May 2005 at 09:48.
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Luke, you and I have both been here a long time (I was on the original e-mail Pprune digest!), and seen a lot of things change. Wannabes is one of the most successful and relevant parts of the whole site, and I think it's pretty well adapted to the needs of its primary users - those guys who have yet to get a licence and find a job.
As I said a little earlier, I am quite happy to apply a bit of leeway in the threads that appear in this forum, but I'm not going to let things stray far from the purpose for which it exists.
T&E is frequently used for discussing interviews, though it may be true there are none on the first page right now. However, the emphasis there is slightly different, in that the conversations are between people who've been through the whole interview process before (maybe several times) and who only need to know fairly brief details about the procedure at a given airline. In Wannabes, on the other hand, people need a far more fundamental explanation of the interview process - right from what to wear (how many times has that come up!).
The fact is that your needs, as a now-employed airline pilot, have moved on from where Wannabes is, and the forum isn't going to change to move with you. This is the kindergarten, and you're now at primary school! I know it feels comfortable to be here, but you need to broaden your horizons now. However, you're welcome back anytime to add to the wealth of knowledge that the Wannabes need!
Scroggs
As I said a little earlier, I am quite happy to apply a bit of leeway in the threads that appear in this forum, but I'm not going to let things stray far from the purpose for which it exists.
T&E is frequently used for discussing interviews, though it may be true there are none on the first page right now. However, the emphasis there is slightly different, in that the conversations are between people who've been through the whole interview process before (maybe several times) and who only need to know fairly brief details about the procedure at a given airline. In Wannabes, on the other hand, people need a far more fundamental explanation of the interview process - right from what to wear (how many times has that come up!).
The fact is that your needs, as a now-employed airline pilot, have moved on from where Wannabes is, and the forum isn't going to change to move with you. This is the kindergarten, and you're now at primary school! I know it feels comfortable to be here, but you need to broaden your horizons now. However, you're welcome back anytime to add to the wealth of knowledge that the Wannabes need!
Scroggs
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Flaps..hands up from me. No argument intended..but during my pprune prowel, coming across this thread was too much to not post on. It seemed to be all against scroggs' forum rules, and his defense of them.
I do know the infamous RTFQ RTFA abbreviations, and point duly taken. To save digging a hole I'll just cut my case loose. The fact still remains, this is directed to anyone not you flaps, that as scroggs said just above me, this is for those who want the ABCs and 123s of interviews; not really the "ive worked for 10 years, had 4 interviews, know it all, give me some guidance please" types..hence the wanabees. I just dont see how any further discussion is needed...
Maybe I'm wrong, but i have a little feeling this thread might be closed before long
Good luck to all, however, in the quest for jobs.
P.S. Luke...I've been here for 3 years on this name, and had another for 2 years before that. Theres a little more to me than you know, so Id like at least an appology or take back for you mini bash against me which is very misguided.
I do know the infamous RTFQ RTFA abbreviations, and point duly taken. To save digging a hole I'll just cut my case loose. The fact still remains, this is directed to anyone not you flaps, that as scroggs said just above me, this is for those who want the ABCs and 123s of interviews; not really the "ive worked for 10 years, had 4 interviews, know it all, give me some guidance please" types..hence the wanabees. I just dont see how any further discussion is needed...
Maybe I'm wrong, but i have a little feeling this thread might be closed before long
Good luck to all, however, in the quest for jobs.
P.S. Luke...I've been here for 3 years on this name, and had another for 2 years before that. Theres a little more to me than you know, so Id like at least an appology or take back for you mini bash against me which is very misguided.