Flybe type rating problems
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Flybe type rating problems
Hearing rumors that flybe recruitment from cabair was not that successful. As I understand it a course in canada had a large pass problem and senior flybe staff had to fly out for armtwisting to get them through. Can anyone give me some more info.
Particually intertested since Don was complaining of the training risk of older pilots. I believe he said recently " If I am really busy I sort the CV's into under 28 and over 28".
Particually intertested since Don was complaining of the training risk of older pilots. I believe he said recently " If I am really busy I sort the CV's into under 28 and over 28".
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Heard last week from a Dash 8 F/O that FlyBE were very short of pilots and were taking pilots straight out of the flight schools with NO sim check and putting them straight onto the course.
The result was that a lot of them had problems on the type rating course.
I can't see why DD would dismiss older pilots. Just doesn't make any sense as some of those have Turbo Prop experience.
The result was that a lot of them had problems on the type rating course.
I can't see why DD would dismiss older pilots. Just doesn't make any sense as some of those have Turbo Prop experience.
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He was at a talk when he said that. My friends that attended were amused that for an HR bod he obviously hadn't heard of age discrimination legislation. He also refused to comment on the facts and figures for older pilots. All he would say was they once had a 40 year old pilot who failed a type rating.
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To be fair to Don Darby, when I heard him at a seminar (Aeros beginning of May) he mentioned the case of a highly experienced guy (57 I think) who could not hack a particular type conversion course, however he also said that he had recently recruited a 63 year old (presumabaly rated on type). He raised the example of the guy who could not hack it in order to show that it is possible that older people can fail courses. (This example was offered at a time when Don Darby was being badgered by one of us crumblies, which I thought was quite rude. Guy turns up in his own time to give seminar, gets heckled. hmmm.)
However this is completely different from low hours older candidates. Reading other threads it would appear FlyBe have recruited a few older modular guys just recently. I would have thought the situation is more complicated than it appears if a whole course is having problems.
Personally I think that the young people are not my competition, it is all the other people of a similar age / experience to myself who are the competition...
However this is completely different from low hours older candidates. Reading other threads it would appear FlyBe have recruited a few older modular guys just recently. I would have thought the situation is more complicated than it appears if a whole course is having problems.
Personally I think that the young people are not my competition, it is all the other people of a similar age / experience to myself who are the competition...
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Tallbloke,
I was also at said talk and thought that DD gave a good talk.
The heckler was out of order. I was later informed that he is already in a position of responsibility within the industry and even undertakes training at Aeros. He was out of order, not constructive...and that's when I left.
He should know better. What a big man he is....
I've had it from someone else that recruitment to such positions depends on the HR guy at the time. There are no rules. The line captain that I was talking with said he valued life experience in the RHS over 'straight out of the can' every time.
G
I was also at said talk and thought that DD gave a good talk.
The heckler was out of order. I was later informed that he is already in a position of responsibility within the industry and even undertakes training at Aeros. He was out of order, not constructive...and that's when I left.
He should know better. What a big man he is....
I've had it from someone else that recruitment to such positions depends on the HR guy at the time. There are no rules. The line captain that I was talking with said he valued life experience in the RHS over 'straight out of the can' every time.
G
African drunk,
To be fair to both those on the course in question, and to cabair, there was a mix of students, some modular, some integrated, some with instructing experience and from a variety of training schools. I understand from talking to some of them that only one failed to pass the test first time, but some additional sim time was given to most of the trainees prior to their LST, after which they all achieved first time passes aside from the one mentioned who past at the second attempt.
Two flybe TREs had to go out to Canada as FSI who were doing some of the training have no suitably qualified examiners. One of them was the dash 8 training manager so I guess that could be defined as "senior flybe staff"- but that was purely a coincidence as it was all rostered a month before. Not sure what sort of "arm twisting" could be applied, my understanding is that there are tolerances and test standards laid down by the CAA for multi-crew LSTs just as for single crew, and you either achieve the standard or you don't.
As for the age thing I believe that the 63 year old was recruited as a direct entry captain, but recent recruits have included modular students in their early 40s on first type rating courses, and many over the age of 28. There have been no significant failures that I know of, although I admit I don't get to talk to the training staff on a regular basis so I could have missed some.
To be fair to both those on the course in question, and to cabair, there was a mix of students, some modular, some integrated, some with instructing experience and from a variety of training schools. I understand from talking to some of them that only one failed to pass the test first time, but some additional sim time was given to most of the trainees prior to their LST, after which they all achieved first time passes aside from the one mentioned who past at the second attempt.
Two flybe TREs had to go out to Canada as FSI who were doing some of the training have no suitably qualified examiners. One of them was the dash 8 training manager so I guess that could be defined as "senior flybe staff"- but that was purely a coincidence as it was all rostered a month before. Not sure what sort of "arm twisting" could be applied, my understanding is that there are tolerances and test standards laid down by the CAA for multi-crew LSTs just as for single crew, and you either achieve the standard or you don't.
As for the age thing I believe that the 63 year old was recruited as a direct entry captain, but recent recruits have included modular students in their early 40s on first type rating courses, and many over the age of 28. There have been no significant failures that I know of, although I admit I don't get to talk to the training staff on a regular basis so I could have missed some.
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Dunno about this discrimination against the crumblies. They have offered places on courses to at least 4 guys I know in their mid-thirties so far this year. OK, so they are all from the best training school in the world (mwaaah, ha ha ha, guffaw, cough, cough, splutter, ahem, er, yeah right). All low hours, mix of integrated and modular. Doesn't seem to suggest any adverse mindset towards the older guys, or are we talking zimmer frame old?
Must've just snuck in under the bar.
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One good aspect of crumblies is that they are unlikely to leave the company is a few years time to go to Monarch or whoever...
I understand flyBE dont like being used as a 'training' airline!
I understand flyBE dont like being used as a 'training' airline!
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One good aspect of crumblies is that they are unlikely to leave the company is a few years time to go to Monarch or whoever...
I understand flyBE dont like being used as a 'training' airline!
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I believe one argument put to DD was that older guys are more likely to hang in for the long haul. He did however say that If he was really busy he sort the CV's into under 28 and over 28.
It would be interesting to know the figures. From personal experience I know 5 over 30's who have joined in the last 5 years and all are still there. The 6 young guys known to me have left or are in the process. Does the high turnover relate to the fact that flybe have recruited a large proportion of younger intergrated pilots who ( in most cases ) see themselves destined for big shiny jets?
I have no particular axe to grind as I am 30 but with reasonable experience.
It would be interesting to know the figures. From personal experience I know 5 over 30's who have joined in the last 5 years and all are still there. The 6 young guys known to me have left or are in the process. Does the high turnover relate to the fact that flybe have recruited a large proportion of younger intergrated pilots who ( in most cases ) see themselves destined for big shiny jets?
I have no particular axe to grind as I am 30 but with reasonable experience.
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High Wing Drifter - did you miss out a vital word in one of your statements?!?!?
>>They do pay decent enough money to consider the long haul with them<<
Don't you mean they DON'T pay enough to consider the long haul?!?!?!?! That's why so many young'uns are leaving. Why stay at an airline that has no roster stability, little in the way of crew welfare, and pays about £15000 less than most of the other operators...... And the other operators have the added bonus of a shiny jet! FlyBE always have been one of the lowest payers, and still are.
And as far as 'crumblies' being better to employ because they'll stick around - lots of those who have recently left were Dash Captains (mostly 'crumblies') because they were so fed up off constantly having the pi** taken when it came to their roster and lifestyle..... It's not all about the 'big jets'.
Don't know anything about this recent course that had 'problems' - I've known of guys who did have a sim check before being employed who also had problems.... And no, you can't 'armitwist' to get anyone through.
>>They do pay decent enough money to consider the long haul with them<<
Don't you mean they DON'T pay enough to consider the long haul?!?!?!?! That's why so many young'uns are leaving. Why stay at an airline that has no roster stability, little in the way of crew welfare, and pays about £15000 less than most of the other operators...... And the other operators have the added bonus of a shiny jet! FlyBE always have been one of the lowest payers, and still are.
And as far as 'crumblies' being better to employ because they'll stick around - lots of those who have recently left were Dash Captains (mostly 'crumblies') because they were so fed up off constantly having the pi** taken when it came to their roster and lifestyle..... It's not all about the 'big jets'.
Don't know anything about this recent course that had 'problems' - I've known of guys who did have a sim check before being employed who also had problems.... And no, you can't 'armitwist' to get anyone through.
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I've heard rumours about the courses that failed. I've heard that it was an internal problem and not really to do with the new guys/galls inexperience or inabilities.
As i understand it there was a disagreement between two training captains who chopped each other's students. Very unprofessional if that's the case. If no-one can stick to the training guidelines then that makes life very difficult for the newbies.....welcome to Flybe!!
I also heard that this little exercise cost the company £1m as these pilots were already rostered to be flying on the line.
To echo er82's sentiments the pay is rubbish as is the roster stability etc. but as a first job you could do a lot worse. If you decide you don't like it you can leave, as many of my colleagues are doing. Other airlines seem to look at experience at Flybe as a good thing.
As for discriminating against older pilots i'm sure that does happen. When i attended a lecture 3 years ago he was saying the same thing. Older pilots do get through the "system" (!) and the First Officer's among them seem to stay. The Captain's who have worked at other airlines soon regret joining Flybe and leave.
I believe the one's who have made it through have either had recommendations from people within Flybe or just been incredibly persistant.
DD is a character. Here's an urban legend i heard about him......
DD and the late great George Dunn were sitting at a desk in an office in Exeter. Across the table from them was a pilot waiting patiently for the interview to begin.
DD starts the precedings....."So xxxxx why do you want to join Flybe?"
George leans over and whispers....."Don,.... this is an exit interview"!!!!
As i understand it there was a disagreement between two training captains who chopped each other's students. Very unprofessional if that's the case. If no-one can stick to the training guidelines then that makes life very difficult for the newbies.....welcome to Flybe!!
I also heard that this little exercise cost the company £1m as these pilots were already rostered to be flying on the line.
To echo er82's sentiments the pay is rubbish as is the roster stability etc. but as a first job you could do a lot worse. If you decide you don't like it you can leave, as many of my colleagues are doing. Other airlines seem to look at experience at Flybe as a good thing.
As for discriminating against older pilots i'm sure that does happen. When i attended a lecture 3 years ago he was saying the same thing. Older pilots do get through the "system" (!) and the First Officer's among them seem to stay. The Captain's who have worked at other airlines soon regret joining Flybe and leave.
I believe the one's who have made it through have either had recommendations from people within Flybe or just been incredibly persistant.
DD is a character. Here's an urban legend i heard about him......
DD and the late great George Dunn were sitting at a desk in an office in Exeter. Across the table from them was a pilot waiting patiently for the interview to begin.
DD starts the precedings....."So xxxxx why do you want to join Flybe?"
George leans over and whispers....."Don,.... this is an exit interview"!!!!
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Brilliant!! Hadn't heard that myself but can well imagine it happening!
If the guys/gals aren't going to be on the line as planned it looks like I'll lose some of my 12 days of standby this month! This place was going to be home to newbies for the next month, leaving me free to run around and cause much more havoc before I leave!
If the guys/gals aren't going to be on the line as planned it looks like I'll lose some of my 12 days of standby this month! This place was going to be home to newbies for the next month, leaving me free to run around and cause much more havoc before I leave!
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Don't you mean they DON'T pay enough to consider the long haul?!?!?!?! That's why so many young'uns are leaving. Why stay at an airline that has no roster stability
Frankly, from what I read roster stability is like the mythical crock of gold at the end of the Rainbow
