Ba Recruiting App Graduates!
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Are 200-hr, piston, integrated students a safer bet than a non-BA-TR'd captain who wants to fly for BA? Are Oxford's integrated students an iota better than a modular guy from a smaller outfit? If they are, I'd like to see the evidence. I think CanadianKid has it right.
But in reality, it doesn't make the slightest bit difference why BA prefers to take integrated students. It may be the case that the biggest factor is the reduced administrative burden and the - apparent - "risk elimination" that a long-term, preferred supplied can provide over a smaller modular school, or even over a pilot who's flown for other large types for another airline. Of course BA will always make the decision which it deems the safest, cheapest and easiest for them, and no-one can really blame them for that.
But in my opinion the most annoying about this story is the Oxford way of marketing itself: Join us, and you'll land on the right seat of an airliner.
Does the recent uptake of a few integrated guys into BA guarantee any specific individual who now enrols on the APP a job at the end? No. Does it even increase his chances of getting straight into an airline? No. But hey, hand over your 60 grand, dress in a slick uniform, walk around feeling like a 747 captain - and you just might get there in the end! On the other hand, you might end up with a mountain of debt, low hours, and no job at all. For those who can easily gamble this sort of money, it may well be worth it. It's just sad that for so many others, the story ends in tears...
But in reality, it doesn't make the slightest bit difference why BA prefers to take integrated students. It may be the case that the biggest factor is the reduced administrative burden and the - apparent - "risk elimination" that a long-term, preferred supplied can provide over a smaller modular school, or even over a pilot who's flown for other large types for another airline. Of course BA will always make the decision which it deems the safest, cheapest and easiest for them, and no-one can really blame them for that.
But in my opinion the most annoying about this story is the Oxford way of marketing itself: Join us, and you'll land on the right seat of an airliner.
Does the recent uptake of a few integrated guys into BA guarantee any specific individual who now enrols on the APP a job at the end? No. Does it even increase his chances of getting straight into an airline? No. But hey, hand over your 60 grand, dress in a slick uniform, walk around feeling like a 747 captain - and you just might get there in the end! On the other hand, you might end up with a mountain of debt, low hours, and no job at all. For those who can easily gamble this sort of money, it may well be worth it. It's just sad that for so many others, the story ends in tears...
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Are 200-hr, piston, integrated students a safer bet than a non-BA-TR'd captain who wants to fly for BA?
BA need to spread the ages of their recruits, or they end up with 'age bulges' which later bring 'retirement bulges', which are bad for planning your training programme. They are also one of the few remaining airlines which really do like the idea of employing a pilot from graduation to retirement. However, they never have, and probably never will, recruited only fATPLs, and the fATPLs they have recruited have not been exclusively from Oxford (or any other particular school).
Scroggs
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Oh, please. We've got nearly that many sponsored with Easy & Thomas Cook, never mind all the hard working self-sponsored bods who've got places as far afield as Thailand and Newcastle. Its all guff, you can't check it, they're selling a product that has to show results now, or it's dead.
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I agree. I wouldn't want to dispute the quality of the Oxford APP, it's one of the best-designed programmes out there.
But the point is this: spending the sort of money Oxford are asking means student are taking a big gamble, no matter what Mike Taylor and the glossy brochures might say. For those who have access to the funds, the same (Oxford) money can buy APP-level qualifications plus a TR on just about any type that pilots are currently being recruited for. And this, in my opinion, puts into question the unique selling proposition of the APP - which is its claim that OATS can provide cadets with a better chance of employment than any other school. Is the APP better than an fATPL from another school plus a TR? And in the context of BA, let's not forget that the fATPL+TR route would also bring any potential applicant a lot closer to getting a job there. Of course I'm aware that just an fATPL+TR is not enough for getting directly into BA as a DEP, but for recently qualified fATPLs a TR will certainly improve the chances with a lot of other carriers who are currently recruiting. For those that then really want to carry on to BA, it would therefore also enhance their chances there - given enough time to build the necessary hours.
As Alex Wittingham says, even without spending the Oxford money, or without buying a TR, students of many other schools have been equally successful in securing the first job. And as far as Oxford goes, it's true - given their investment in the APP and the associated facilities (which are remarkable) over the last 2 years, things would go downhill without the programme being able to recruit a steady stream of new cadets...!
Scroggs, I'm curious whether the BA decision to recruit both APPs and DEPs is based on a requirement to avoid 'bulges' down the line - given the relative age flexibility for both recruitment streams (a DEP might be younger than an APP graduate). I think it is more a case of meeting both the airline's short and long-term requirements.
But the point is this: spending the sort of money Oxford are asking means student are taking a big gamble, no matter what Mike Taylor and the glossy brochures might say. For those who have access to the funds, the same (Oxford) money can buy APP-level qualifications plus a TR on just about any type that pilots are currently being recruited for. And this, in my opinion, puts into question the unique selling proposition of the APP - which is its claim that OATS can provide cadets with a better chance of employment than any other school. Is the APP better than an fATPL from another school plus a TR? And in the context of BA, let's not forget that the fATPL+TR route would also bring any potential applicant a lot closer to getting a job there. Of course I'm aware that just an fATPL+TR is not enough for getting directly into BA as a DEP, but for recently qualified fATPLs a TR will certainly improve the chances with a lot of other carriers who are currently recruiting. For those that then really want to carry on to BA, it would therefore also enhance their chances there - given enough time to build the necessary hours.
As Alex Wittingham says, even without spending the Oxford money, or without buying a TR, students of many other schools have been equally successful in securing the first job. And as far as Oxford goes, it's true - given their investment in the APP and the associated facilities (which are remarkable) over the last 2 years, things would go downhill without the programme being able to recruit a steady stream of new cadets...!
Scroggs, I'm curious whether the BA decision to recruit both APPs and DEPs is based on a requirement to avoid 'bulges' down the line - given the relative age flexibility for both recruitment streams (a DEP might be younger than an APP graduate). I think it is more a case of meeting both the airline's short and long-term requirements.
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Me thinks that BA are having to recruit straight from the flying schools due to the underwhelming response to their recent advert for type rated pilots.
Whilst I understand your keenness, be warned of the very long time to command!
cheers
zzz
Whilst I understand your keenness, be warned of the very long time to command!
cheers
zzz
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I'm an intergrated pilot currently at Cabair and apparently something went up on some board located somewhere saying something about BA wanting 24 guys/girls with 85% average and 1st time pass on IR..blah..blah..blah..It also said 'apparently' that they were looking at OAT (yeah i know what your thinking it came as a surpise to me too!!!), Cabair and Jerez!! So there you go straight out of some horses mouth!!
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Bottom line is BA dont want to open their doors to the whole wannabe community. They dont have the need, nor the manpower to cover this. So, they get the guys at the integrated schools to do all the work for them. Suddenly Oxford seem all empowered and can now flog APP courses for another year....
Hell, you dont have to pay your type rating, but the amount 'extra' you have paid for APP or integrated will cover this.
As for Oxford supplying a superior product in APP. Rubbish.
3 New Sims which, even the instructors will agree, are crap. I personally loved the refurbished aircraft, but make no bones about it, they were refurbed due to the sims coming in and taking the load of te flying program. If you want 40 essentially unloggable hours in an FNPT II which should actually be a king air, then be my guest.
You will get top class training from individuals, not poorly adjusted training aids, and no doubt meet some great coursemates. By god you will pay through the nose for it.
Hell, you dont have to pay your type rating, but the amount 'extra' you have paid for APP or integrated will cover this.
As for Oxford supplying a superior product in APP. Rubbish.
3 New Sims which, even the instructors will agree, are crap. I personally loved the refurbished aircraft, but make no bones about it, they were refurbed due to the sims coming in and taking the load of te flying program. If you want 40 essentially unloggable hours in an FNPT II which should actually be a king air, then be my guest.
You will get top class training from individuals, not poorly adjusted training aids, and no doubt meet some great coursemates. By god you will pay through the nose for it.
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Tron , I think you are right - the news of BA recruiting APP graudates has two sides to it. On the one hand, BA gets the cadets which Oxford instructors consider to be 'suitably qualified', and resembling previous TEP candidates; the other one this is a great marketing coup for Oxford.
But - apart from BA's sheer manpower/retirement considerations - I'm actually wondering whether BA actually needs to recruit OATS graudates to meet long-term goals. Sure, it's a straightforward solution - qualified individuals who probably haven't screwed up anything in their previous aviation career (that being all of 200 closely guided hours), are being recruited.
But long-term, any airline can only survive by recruiting committed, high-quality individuals who are focussed and dedicated to the company. I wonder whether this goal is being met by BA's recent decisions. These graduates are new people who may be easily mouldable and 'fit in' with the same corporate paradigm that TEP cadet's have met years ago. But so many people - ranging from check-in agent to 744 captain - are pissed off with BA. I need not remind you how many are disgrunted with the way things are done, no matter whether it involves scheduling, pay, or benefits.
It may well be the case that new graduates will fit in well with whatever BA currently things its future captains should be like. Chances are, they can be moulded enough 'to fit'. But it's an illusion to think that a long-term solution to the problems BA is facing (particularly amongst its workforce) are resolved by taking on people who closely resemble the clones of the previous TEP cadet scheme. It's essentially a blast from the past. Aviation is changing. BA - in terms of so many aspects crucial to survival in today's competitive marketplace - has not. Under Captain Eddington, Shareholder value has become more important than any other consideration which a prosperous company needs for long-term survival. BA needs people who challenge the old paradigm, come up with new ideas, and are dedicated on taking the company into the future. NOT the old types who proudly wear the wings of The World's Favourite Airline and work there as drones until retirement. But finding individuals who meet this requirement (as well as being good pilots) is extremely difficult - so APP graduates seem to be the answer.
Oxford is a wholly different aspect. The APP isn't a superior product; it's just marketed better than many competitive programmes. Hey, how many image transformations has Oxford gone through in the last couple of years? New logos, new brochures, new web sites and marketing people have come and gone. Mr. Petteford may have gotten them to figure out the right way to get new customers eventually. But does this change the quality of the course? No. The APP remains an outrageously priced product which promises - essentially - nothing.
But it doesn't matter - although Oxford's products aren't superior, they're very good. Individual instructors do, of course, have a bearing on how good the 'product APP' actually turns out, but I think it's indisputable that the Oxford Instruction isn't bad.
What IS bad is the promise of a right-hand seat, which seems to have been further strenghtened by the recent BA coup. It's great news to all wannabes to see this as a "direct route in". But two things mustn't be forgotten: Oxford isn't the only option for first-class flight training, nor is BA the first-class choice as an employer that it once was...
But - apart from BA's sheer manpower/retirement considerations - I'm actually wondering whether BA actually needs to recruit OATS graudates to meet long-term goals. Sure, it's a straightforward solution - qualified individuals who probably haven't screwed up anything in their previous aviation career (that being all of 200 closely guided hours), are being recruited.
But long-term, any airline can only survive by recruiting committed, high-quality individuals who are focussed and dedicated to the company. I wonder whether this goal is being met by BA's recent decisions. These graduates are new people who may be easily mouldable and 'fit in' with the same corporate paradigm that TEP cadet's have met years ago. But so many people - ranging from check-in agent to 744 captain - are pissed off with BA. I need not remind you how many are disgrunted with the way things are done, no matter whether it involves scheduling, pay, or benefits.
It may well be the case that new graduates will fit in well with whatever BA currently things its future captains should be like. Chances are, they can be moulded enough 'to fit'. But it's an illusion to think that a long-term solution to the problems BA is facing (particularly amongst its workforce) are resolved by taking on people who closely resemble the clones of the previous TEP cadet scheme. It's essentially a blast from the past. Aviation is changing. BA - in terms of so many aspects crucial to survival in today's competitive marketplace - has not. Under Captain Eddington, Shareholder value has become more important than any other consideration which a prosperous company needs for long-term survival. BA needs people who challenge the old paradigm, come up with new ideas, and are dedicated on taking the company into the future. NOT the old types who proudly wear the wings of The World's Favourite Airline and work there as drones until retirement. But finding individuals who meet this requirement (as well as being good pilots) is extremely difficult - so APP graduates seem to be the answer.
Oxford is a wholly different aspect. The APP isn't a superior product; it's just marketed better than many competitive programmes. Hey, how many image transformations has Oxford gone through in the last couple of years? New logos, new brochures, new web sites and marketing people have come and gone. Mr. Petteford may have gotten them to figure out the right way to get new customers eventually. But does this change the quality of the course? No. The APP remains an outrageously priced product which promises - essentially - nothing.
But it doesn't matter - although Oxford's products aren't superior, they're very good. Individual instructors do, of course, have a bearing on how good the 'product APP' actually turns out, but I think it's indisputable that the Oxford Instruction isn't bad.
What IS bad is the promise of a right-hand seat, which seems to have been further strenghtened by the recent BA coup. It's great news to all wannabes to see this as a "direct route in". But two things mustn't be forgotten: Oxford isn't the only option for first-class flight training, nor is BA the first-class choice as an employer that it once was...
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I wouldn't want to dispute the quality of the Oxford APP, it's one of the best-designed programmes out there
Funnily enough, I have yet to find an independent endorsement of Oxford's APP scheme!
Scroggs
Extra hours on a pretend-not-quite-real 737 Sim plus some interview coaching is how some have described it to me.
A fine course no doubt. Certainly staffed by excellent instructors and also well known in the industry.
Value for money remains in the eyes of the beholder.
Cheers
WWW
A fine course no doubt. Certainly staffed by excellent instructors and also well known in the industry.
Value for money remains in the eyes of the beholder.
Cheers
WWW
If you think the quality of instruction is high, have you tried asking the RAF ME students who've been through there recently? These are winged pilots so their opinion is reasonably valid and they have no axe to grind since they're not paying for the tuition but I don't think many of them will sing Oxford's praises particularly highly.
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Ham,
Maybe the RAF guys at OATS have a slightly jaded view having been fast jet streamed, flown the hawk then told "sorry no jobs on fast jets anymore, off to Oxford for ME training"... it would piss me off and no matter how good the training was, I would not be happy with it.
In terms of the instructors I had, well they got me through everything first time under hours. So in my opinion they are good quality. Value for money in my eyes... but as you say that is in the eye of the beholder and I do know some pissed off people, but then I know their history and most of them have only themselves to blame.
BigAir
Maybe the RAF guys at OATS have a slightly jaded view having been fast jet streamed, flown the hawk then told "sorry no jobs on fast jets anymore, off to Oxford for ME training"... it would piss me off and no matter how good the training was, I would not be happy with it.
In terms of the instructors I had, well they got me through everything first time under hours. So in my opinion they are good quality. Value for money in my eyes... but as you say that is in the eye of the beholder and I do know some pissed off people, but then I know their history and most of them have only themselves to blame.
BigAir
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BA recruiting internally
BA HR posted an internal advert on the 13th of OCT for applications from FATPL holders, currently employed WITHIN BA, to apply for their JOT training and pool. Restrictions were current CPL/IR, height, GCSE and age under 49.
Successful applicants would grad to the 737/a320 at LGW/LHR.
No type or minimum hours specified.
Can't be many of those within BA, will the next step be external advertising???
Successful applicants would grad to the 737/a320 at LGW/LHR.
No type or minimum hours specified.
Can't be many of those within BA, will the next step be external advertising???
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KrazyKraut
Total BA guff - careful if you spout it too much BA will recruit as a manager!
Despite all the corporate spiel the realities of what BA want from their employees and in particular pilots have become painfully obvious in 14yrs of working for them..
BA do not want 3500 managers who also happen to be pilots.
They do want 'malleable' pilots who they can strap to the RHS (and many many years later the LHS) and fly them right to the legal maximums (and beyond if they can twist the CAA to up the anuual limit). They want max productivity at min cost (and that includes min training cost - min ground training, min sim time, min route training , first time passes, min recurrent training)
Ur right a lot of BA is still stuck in the 70's - but it aint the pilots. 850+ hours in the last year at plain time, and the shorthaul guys are well above 700pa now - more productivity to come.
BA will recruit OATS approved graduates because they want to!
- and because they will deliver the above productivity over the long term (less likely with a co/type hopping dep) at min cost.
-because they meet the standard and have a proven training ability which will deliver min training cost.
BA needs people who challenge the old paradigm, come up with new ideas, and are dedicated on taking the company into the future.
Despite all the corporate spiel the realities of what BA want from their employees and in particular pilots have become painfully obvious in 14yrs of working for them..
BA do not want 3500 managers who also happen to be pilots.
They do want 'malleable' pilots who they can strap to the RHS (and many many years later the LHS) and fly them right to the legal maximums (and beyond if they can twist the CAA to up the anuual limit). They want max productivity at min cost (and that includes min training cost - min ground training, min sim time, min route training , first time passes, min recurrent training)
Ur right a lot of BA is still stuck in the 70's - but it aint the pilots. 850+ hours in the last year at plain time, and the shorthaul guys are well above 700pa now - more productivity to come.
BA will recruit OATS approved graduates because they want to!
- and because they will deliver the above productivity over the long term (less likely with a co/type hopping dep) at min cost.
-because they meet the standard and have a proven training ability which will deliver min training cost.
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Moo
You mentioned 108 students placed by OAT. A good friend who left OAT 3 years ago and slogged his guts out, in instructing and air taxi was suprised to find out that he was placed, by OAT with his current employers, which was news to him and them. I have heard similar stories from a couple of pilots at Logan Air.
Lots of schools could play that game if you set no time limit. I did my IR at BFC and if you took all the guys that took IR's that year they could claim graduates "placed" in companies from BA to Cathay.
You mentioned 108 students placed by OAT. A good friend who left OAT 3 years ago and slogged his guts out, in instructing and air taxi was suprised to find out that he was placed, by OAT with his current employers, which was news to him and them. I have heard similar stories from a couple of pilots at Logan Air.
Lots of schools could play that game if you set no time limit. I did my IR at BFC and if you took all the guys that took IR's that year they could claim graduates "placed" in companies from BA to Cathay.
