Is this discrimination?
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Flying farmer
Its definately true that some organisations descriminate on age, or use the phrase 'age commensurate with experience' which amounts to the same. I am 41 now and have been a wannabe for over 12 years, my options have definately reduced.
Its definately true that some organisations descriminate on age, or use the phrase 'age commensurate with experience' which amounts to the same. I am 41 now and have been a wannabe for over 12 years, my options have definately reduced.
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Of course I have'nt got the big picture (just the small one in incredible detail). There has always been a lot of tosh on this, plus a good deal of hypocrisy and nepotism.
I have been a Captain ( small airline) and First Officer (heavy jets, large airline) and achieved regular command standard base checks, often examined by ex-mil and big airline TRE's.
My background?
Ex Self Improver, tuggy and hangar mechanic.
Wearing a white shirt and mincing around in Jerez does not make you an airman.
Digging in to face incoming artillery.
I have been a Captain ( small airline) and First Officer (heavy jets, large airline) and achieved regular command standard base checks, often examined by ex-mil and big airline TRE's.
My background?
Ex Self Improver, tuggy and hangar mechanic.
Wearing a white shirt and mincing around in Jerez does not make you an airman.
Digging in to face incoming artillery.
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My gripe is that there are several airlines that clearly discriminate against pilots who have gained their licence via the modular route (myself included, obviously).
An over generalisation but a starting point: Ex-RAF will prefer ex-RAF, ex-sponsorship will prefer cadets, ex-integrated will prefer integrated, school of lifers will probably hire the best person for the job. What is the Chief Pilot's background, that will in most cases give you an insite into their hiring requirements.
BTW, I don't believe that not hiring modular is discrimination. In terms of qualifications, an employer should be able to decide what their requirements are without interferance.
The age thing is discrimination, but you can't blame people from not wanting to move from a system that they know works or from an environment that they feel they understand and are comfortable with. Some people really do look at those of a similar age to them, but of a lesser status as failures.
I understand that 5 of the most recent 8 recruits [at BMI] are integrated students and the other 3 have considerable experience.
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Sadly this type of "discrimination" occurs in many areas - take the Oxbridge/Old Boys network as an example - does having a 2:1 from Oxbridge make you better than having a 2:1 from one of the new universities? Well some would argue yes, others would argue that those candidates going to the new style uni had worked harder because they probably were there as they didn't have the entry requirements for a bigger uni... Could you then go on to say that companies doing their "Milk Run" who only use selected universities are discriminating.... well in a way yes they are, but as has been pointed out previously they are going for products that they are aware of, have probably been through themselves and know all the details about.
I hope Scroggs gets some meaningful replies and enlightens some people within the industry, as us lower down on the food chain are too paranoid about upsetting the apple cart in a small industry.
I hope Scroggs gets some meaningful replies and enlightens some people within the industry, as us lower down on the food chain are too paranoid about upsetting the apple cart in a small industry.
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I think what we're trying to get at here is the discrimination that appears to be going on doesn't take into account the following:
14 exams, CPL and IR flight tests are all examined externally by the CAA.
It shouldn't make any difference where you study/train for these, at the end of the day, we're all in the same pot when it comes to the crunch, so therefore, why should those that can afford to attend an integrated course, get a better chance of getting an airline job than those who traditionally struggle through a modular course for financial or other reasons......?
14 exams, CPL and IR flight tests are all examined externally by the CAA.
It shouldn't make any difference where you study/train for these, at the end of the day, we're all in the same pot when it comes to the crunch, so therefore, why should those that can afford to attend an integrated course, get a better chance of getting an airline job than those who traditionally struggle through a modular course for financial or other reasons......?
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The hardship, struggles & general non-flying difficulties with modular doesn't gain any admiration these days. I have heard it far too often that an integrated licence holder is more current , even after 6 months from issue.
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You'll not be surprised to learn that the average response has been 'We do not comment of matters of recruiting policy'. In fact, most won't even give me that much - but they are reading this! I suspect that one or two who've specified 'integrated only' (or OAT, say, only) are basically ill-informed about the current training requirements and examination culture, and are too lazy to learn - at the moment, those few going that route can get what they want within those specifications. That won't last.....
As for High Wing Drifter's contention that 'ex-integrated [Chief Pilots] will prefer integrated [applicants]', that would be a hell of an achievement - the modular/integrated system has only been here a few years! For someone to have completed an integrated course, left, joined an airline, progressed to command, and made Chief Pilot in that time would be... highly dubious! But there's some truth in what he says, and I do believe that those Chief Pilots (or DFOs) who remember the CAP509 system (which in itself is probably after their time) might equate integrated courses with that. Even Chief Pilots can be pretty dumb, sometimes!
Scroggs
As for High Wing Drifter's contention that 'ex-integrated [Chief Pilots] will prefer integrated [applicants]', that would be a hell of an achievement - the modular/integrated system has only been here a few years! For someone to have completed an integrated course, left, joined an airline, progressed to command, and made Chief Pilot in that time would be... highly dubious! But there's some truth in what he says, and I do believe that those Chief Pilots (or DFOs) who remember the CAP509 system (which in itself is probably after their time) might equate integrated courses with that. Even Chief Pilots can be pretty dumb, sometimes!
Scroggs
My advice is to claim you have completed an Integrated Course structure.
I bet half the recruiters wouldn't be able to tell you what the difference is, which schools do them or at which airfields. Given this how are they to tell by looking at your logbook and your CAA license if you followed an Integrated or Modular course?
I could tell. I could spot the slight differences in the sequence of training flights and the subtle differences in the SPIC time etc.
But unless your recruiter has been a fairly recent commercial flying instructor (they won't have been) they have no hope of spotting the difference.
Are they up to date with who are approved to conduct Integrated? At which airfields do they operate? What are their aircraft registrations? Do they stamp logbooks?
Nah. Not a chance.
It might not work if there are large gaps - 6 months or more - between your CPL and your IR. But even then I'd give you a better than evens chance of sailing through the recruitment process untroubled.
What have you got to lose? If somebody does challenge you directly tell them you thought Modular and Integrated courses means Self or Airline Sponsored. Or that the two are the same nowadays - aren't they?
Worst you will get is a polite correction and the interview will be terminated.
For gawds sake don't lie about anything else but this is something they are asking for merely out of ignorance.
Cheers
WWW
I bet half the recruiters wouldn't be able to tell you what the difference is, which schools do them or at which airfields. Given this how are they to tell by looking at your logbook and your CAA license if you followed an Integrated or Modular course?
I could tell. I could spot the slight differences in the sequence of training flights and the subtle differences in the SPIC time etc.
But unless your recruiter has been a fairly recent commercial flying instructor (they won't have been) they have no hope of spotting the difference.
Are they up to date with who are approved to conduct Integrated? At which airfields do they operate? What are their aircraft registrations? Do they stamp logbooks?
Nah. Not a chance.
It might not work if there are large gaps - 6 months or more - between your CPL and your IR. But even then I'd give you a better than evens chance of sailing through the recruitment process untroubled.
What have you got to lose? If somebody does challenge you directly tell them you thought Modular and Integrated courses means Self or Airline Sponsored. Or that the two are the same nowadays - aren't they?
Worst you will get is a polite correction and the interview will be terminated.
For gawds sake don't lie about anything else but this is something they are asking for merely out of ignorance.
Cheers
WWW
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Not a good idea
Personally I wouldn't lie in an application or interview
www's comments are more likely now to encourage recruiters to scrutinise candidates than before.
You can't say it's alright to lie in one respect and not in another just purely based on the probability that they won't bother to check out the facts.......
www's comments are more likely now to encourage recruiters to scrutinise candidates than before.
You can't say it's alright to lie in one respect and not in another just purely based on the probability that they won't bother to check out the facts.......
Of course you shouldn't lie. You might well not understand the difference between Modular and Integrated training routes though. Saw an advert 'Learn to Fly!" in a magazine and went from there etc.
If subsequently the recruitment process is incapable of spotting this error and you can pass all the assesments, the training, the exams and the line training - well. Fair enough.
Does anyone honestly think that they are a better pilot because they have 10 less hours at Kiddlington/Jerez/Cranfield than the other guy who trained with the same instructors in the same aircraft at the same time to pass the same tests and the same exams?
Cheers
WWW
If subsequently the recruitment process is incapable of spotting this error and you can pass all the assesments, the training, the exams and the line training - well. Fair enough.
Does anyone honestly think that they are a better pilot because they have 10 less hours at Kiddlington/Jerez/Cranfield than the other guy who trained with the same instructors in the same aircraft at the same time to pass the same tests and the same exams?
Cheers
WWW
Join Date: Mar 2004
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I don't think it has anything to do with recruiter's ignorance or them believing that the integrated route creates a better pilot.
It simply minimizes risk to airline. They're in a position to make demands like this so why shouldn't they. A student on an intergrated course will be constantly monitored and under the scrutiny of many more points of assessment with a single organisation and can be discouraged from completeing the course if they're not suitable (I know the more cynicical of you may say that an FTO is unlikely to turn down business and you may be right). However, an airline can easily contact Jerez, OAT or whoever and get a good idea of the calibre of the student and assertain whether they'll sail through a type rating and go on to be reliable pilot and an asset to the company.
It simply minimizes risk to airline. They're in a position to make demands like this so why shouldn't they. A student on an intergrated course will be constantly monitored and under the scrutiny of many more points of assessment with a single organisation and can be discouraged from completeing the course if they're not suitable (I know the more cynicical of you may say that an FTO is unlikely to turn down business and you may be right). However, an airline can easily contact Jerez, OAT or whoever and get a good idea of the calibre of the student and assertain whether they'll sail through a type rating and go on to be reliable pilot and an asset to the company.
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A student on an intergrated course will be constantly monitored and under the scrutiny of many more points of assessment
EVERYONE TAKES THE SAME EXAMS, and until someone can prove otherwise there should be no discrimination. I passed everything first time - ATPL's/IR/CPL (modesty out of the window now), but if you compared me with an integrated student who failed everything first time would this still mean that they are more suitable to the job than I?
Please remove this soap box from beneath my feet.
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Chocks,
Aside from professional recommendations, which even in integrated land must surely be in the vast minority of successful employment scenarios; the only way I can accept your argument is if the entry criteria for the integrated school were such that the majority of applicants would fail entrance. The CTC chaps I had the pleasure of mixing with on the Bristol course seemed to me to be, on average, of a higher calibre than your average trainee (only an impression mind).
Scroggs answered a question of mine about GAPAN in the other forum. Aside from GAPAN, I believe that the selection test used by CTC, for example, is the Advanced COMPASS test (is that correct?). The test is available to anybody willing to pay the fee. Maybe it is upto the modular individual to proove they are more than the sum of their ratings as it would be for the self-sponsored integrated graduate?
Aside from professional recommendations, which even in integrated land must surely be in the vast minority of successful employment scenarios; the only way I can accept your argument is if the entry criteria for the integrated school were such that the majority of applicants would fail entrance. The CTC chaps I had the pleasure of mixing with on the Bristol course seemed to me to be, on average, of a higher calibre than your average trainee (only an impression mind).
Scroggs answered a question of mine about GAPAN in the other forum. Aside from GAPAN, I believe that the selection test used by CTC, for example, is the Advanced COMPASS test (is that correct?). The test is available to anybody willing to pay the fee. Maybe it is upto the modular individual to proove they are more than the sum of their ratings as it would be for the self-sponsored integrated graduate?
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I was just posting my thoughts and conclusions based on what i had heard from those in recruitment at the airlines that require applicants from integrated students. Neither of them seemed ignorant to the new system or believed that integrated schools churn out better pilots. All of them sang the praises of the modular system and entirely recommended it if that is what suits you. It did for me and that is why I am awaiting Module 1 of Bristol Groundschool to arrive br courier today. Not sure why you presumed I had attended an integrated course.
If you've really contacted these 15 people this morning you're clearly bonkers. However, i was told that integrated students would be being constantly assessed by the same organisation (rather than the just the exams and tests which can be sat at a multitude of establishments on the modular system) and this made sense to me. I'm sorry if i was under the wrong impression.
If you've really contacted these 15 people this morning you're clearly bonkers. However, i was told that integrated students would be being constantly assessed by the same organisation (rather than the just the exams and tests which can be sat at a multitude of establishments on the modular system) and this made sense to me. I'm sorry if i was under the wrong impression.
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Chocks,
I'm interested in this assessment thing. Is this during hour building? This is the only time that I am pretty much left to my own devices. As you will be aware when you get your Bristol pack, the ground school assessment is constant. Other than that you will be in P.U/S training for your ME, CPL and IR, if you're not doing well here, then I think they'll let you know!
However, if you are saying that the hour building phase is properly structured then I agree. That would be an advantage as an employer will have more confidence in your ability to transit controlled airspace and function in busier environments (depending on the quality fo the structure). Other than the school not getting zone infringement letters from the CAA in the morning post, how can this be assessed more per se?
I'm interested in this assessment thing. Is this during hour building? This is the only time that I am pretty much left to my own devices. As you will be aware when you get your Bristol pack, the ground school assessment is constant. Other than that you will be in P.U/S training for your ME, CPL and IR, if you're not doing well here, then I think they'll let you know!
However, if you are saying that the hour building phase is properly structured then I agree. That would be an advantage as an employer will have more confidence in your ability to transit controlled airspace and function in busier environments (depending on the quality fo the structure). Other than the school not getting zone infringement letters from the CAA in the morning post, how can this be assessed more per se?
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Hmmm... you know I'm really not sure HWD. As i've already implied I have very limited direct experience in the training and the recruitment process so I don't want anyone to take anything I say i as fact (I'm sure you're not!).
Really I'm just repeating what I've from some select people involved in the recruitment process. To me it makes sense that some airlines will want to make things easy for themselves, save money and minize risk in this way. I'm sure they're ruling out many pilots of easily acceptable calibre and of course it's unfair to us on the modular route... however the airlines are in a position to be able to this... there's unlikely to be a lack of decent candidates from integrated schools and I can see (and I understand many disagree) how they might present a lower "training risk" purley because they've completed everything whilst being assessed by a single approved organisation.
As i said I'm no authority on this..just saying it as i perceive it.
Really I'm just repeating what I've from some select people involved in the recruitment process. To me it makes sense that some airlines will want to make things easy for themselves, save money and minize risk in this way. I'm sure they're ruling out many pilots of easily acceptable calibre and of course it's unfair to us on the modular route... however the airlines are in a position to be able to this... there's unlikely to be a lack of decent candidates from integrated schools and I can see (and I understand many disagree) how they might present a lower "training risk" purley because they've completed everything whilst being assessed by a single approved organisation.
As i said I'm no authority on this..just saying it as i perceive it.