Is CTC the only way forward??
Is CTC the only way forward??
in the "olden days" you used to "cut your teeth" on a good old turbo prop for 1500 hrs or so before you had the experience necessary to move up to the medium size jets like the ones operated by the UK charter airlines.....
My question is - with the advent of CTC offering the opportunity to those who can afford it (i didn't have a spare £5,000 having spent £60,000 at Oxford) to go on their courses...... and most airlines now taking pilots straight from there.... low hours guys&gals with no line experience at all.... (allbeit with good ability for having passed the course in the first place) if i want to progress from my job now (F/O BAe146) to the likes of Monarch / Brittania / First Choice would i be better to quit my job and attend CTC?
My question is - with the advent of CTC offering the opportunity to those who can afford it (i didn't have a spare £5,000 having spent £60,000 at Oxford) to go on their courses...... and most airlines now taking pilots straight from there.... low hours guys&gals with no line experience at all.... (allbeit with good ability for having passed the course in the first place) if i want to progress from my job now (F/O BAe146) to the likes of Monarch / Brittania / First Choice would i be better to quit my job and attend CTC?
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CTC is A way into jobs at the airlines you mentioned, but it is certainly not the only way in.
Brits, Monarch, Ryan, Easy etc recruit people of various backgrounds in terms of experience for various reasons. I.e., if everyone is of the same experience, all up for command at same time, retirement at same time etc, you get the drift. So some are low time, years from command, some are nearer.
In my opinon CTC is purely a money making exercise. I went straight to my first job from flying school (also a 146) with 200 hours. So did many of my fellow F/O,s there. Even without the "benefit" of the CTC advanced handling course (or whatever its called), we all did fine.
They will argue its required to find the pick of the bunch - in reality a decent sim check and interview will do the same job for a fraction of the cost.
So dont even dream of quitting a JET job for a course with whom your classmates are beginners. You"re in a different market to them and feeding the money grabbers at CTC, in exchange for a what is not a qualification of any sort, will help you not a jot.
Ask yourself why you want to leave the 146 job? Although, I presume that anyone who thinks of quitting a jet job to do the CTC thing is obviously in the worst job in aviation.
Don"t even think of changing a job just to get on a better aircraft type - for a particular lifestyle/pay/type of work package, the aircraft type is irrelevent. Only change if you can substantially improve any of the 3 issues mentioned above. Aircraft all handle the same with the AP in and at altitude, on a shorthaul sector, speed is but a number.
Brits, Monarch, Ryan, Easy etc recruit people of various backgrounds in terms of experience for various reasons. I.e., if everyone is of the same experience, all up for command at same time, retirement at same time etc, you get the drift. So some are low time, years from command, some are nearer.
In my opinon CTC is purely a money making exercise. I went straight to my first job from flying school (also a 146) with 200 hours. So did many of my fellow F/O,s there. Even without the "benefit" of the CTC advanced handling course (or whatever its called), we all did fine.
They will argue its required to find the pick of the bunch - in reality a decent sim check and interview will do the same job for a fraction of the cost.
So dont even dream of quitting a JET job for a course with whom your classmates are beginners. You"re in a different market to them and feeding the money grabbers at CTC, in exchange for a what is not a qualification of any sort, will help you not a jot.
Ask yourself why you want to leave the 146 job? Although, I presume that anyone who thinks of quitting a jet job to do the CTC thing is obviously in the worst job in aviation.
Don"t even think of changing a job just to get on a better aircraft type - for a particular lifestyle/pay/type of work package, the aircraft type is irrelevent. Only change if you can substantially improve any of the 3 issues mentioned above. Aircraft all handle the same with the AP in and at altitude, on a shorthaul sector, speed is but a number.
the remark at the end of my post about leaving this job to go to CTC was a bit flippant - i have no intention of leaving where i am.
I did want to make the point though that the natural progression of your standard airline career has been somewhat thwarted by the money making machine on the south coast.
As you rightly said, if an airline has a decent enough selection process in terms of interview and sim check then you WILL get the right person for the job. In fact those with a few years on the line with other operators will bring good experience with them, along with the ability to pass a type rating - and this has got to minimise any financial risk to the airlines.
Anyway, rant over. The situation won't change based on what i think!!
I did want to make the point though that the natural progression of your standard airline career has been somewhat thwarted by the money making machine on the south coast.
As you rightly said, if an airline has a decent enough selection process in terms of interview and sim check then you WILL get the right person for the job. In fact those with a few years on the line with other operators will bring good experience with them, along with the ability to pass a type rating - and this has got to minimise any financial risk to the airlines.
Anyway, rant over. The situation won't change based on what i think!!
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There are other alternatives available for those trying to get into the airlines.
Astraeus, in cooperation with Bond Aviation seems to have a good scheme as well. A B737 type rating followed by line experience on type. A number of F/O's at easyJet have gone that route.
When on the subject of CTC, money making machine is a good description rather than that of a quality training institute. Good training is not really something CTC excels in, I keep hearing reports from F/O's about how pilots are not being properly trained and instructed, just being checked and chopped without proper prior instruction, coaching and guidance.
One guy was not allowed to do the skill test (type rating) because he did not make good landings in the sim....
Like the sim is anything like the real airplane...
One extra session would have been sufficient to get this guy through.
Another guy, a very experienced former commuter training captain, told me he would rather resign from easyJet than do his command course at CTC because of the way people there are being treated there.
Another F/O told me when doing his first ever emergency descent in a 737 (without being given any type of coaching or run-through of the required actions in the descent), all the instructor managed to say to him and his sim partner was: "That wasn't good enough"
Fortunately, their next instructor actually taught them something and they both managed (..) to get through the course and are now on the line with easyJet.
Some of the trainers at CTC are ok but it really concerns me to hear so many stories of poor or non-existent training, instead just checking, checking, checking and if you are unlucky, chopping. I could mention many more examples.
As the people who get through are just happy to have landed a jet job, they will not make any waves by criticising CTC publicly. The people that did get chopped don't have many legs to stand on as CTC will always be able to make them look worse if the badmouth CTC. They still need to get a jet job and can not afford to make enemies in the small airline world.
I really feel for these guys.
That said, many will be quite happy with CTC having made it through to the right seat of a jet.
A bit more training and coaching for the cadets by the CTC instructors instead of just checking and chopping would be a step in the right direction.
Astraeus, in cooperation with Bond Aviation seems to have a good scheme as well. A B737 type rating followed by line experience on type. A number of F/O's at easyJet have gone that route.
When on the subject of CTC, money making machine is a good description rather than that of a quality training institute. Good training is not really something CTC excels in, I keep hearing reports from F/O's about how pilots are not being properly trained and instructed, just being checked and chopped without proper prior instruction, coaching and guidance.
One guy was not allowed to do the skill test (type rating) because he did not make good landings in the sim....
Like the sim is anything like the real airplane...
One extra session would have been sufficient to get this guy through.
Another guy, a very experienced former commuter training captain, told me he would rather resign from easyJet than do his command course at CTC because of the way people there are being treated there.
Another F/O told me when doing his first ever emergency descent in a 737 (without being given any type of coaching or run-through of the required actions in the descent), all the instructor managed to say to him and his sim partner was: "That wasn't good enough"
Fortunately, their next instructor actually taught them something and they both managed (..) to get through the course and are now on the line with easyJet.
Some of the trainers at CTC are ok but it really concerns me to hear so many stories of poor or non-existent training, instead just checking, checking, checking and if you are unlucky, chopping. I could mention many more examples.
As the people who get through are just happy to have landed a jet job, they will not make any waves by criticising CTC publicly. The people that did get chopped don't have many legs to stand on as CTC will always be able to make them look worse if the badmouth CTC. They still need to get a jet job and can not afford to make enemies in the small airline world.
I really feel for these guys.
That said, many will be quite happy with CTC having made it through to the right seat of a jet.
A bit more training and coaching for the cadets by the CTC instructors instead of just checking and chopping would be a step in the right direction.
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Money grabbers
A company in the in the UK was a few years back astute enough to see that if it offered the richer wannabes a chance to jump to the front of the job line with a "jet preperation course" then it could make a lot of money from the FATPL holders.
The problem is that a number of even less reputable companys have jumped on the band waggon and it has become the industry norm.
I find it very sad and distastfull that these companys have manovered them selfs into a position that the industry considers them to be nesessary after all most of them are skimming proffit from both the companys and the wannabes with the wannabes paying the lions share.
I see suspect agencys underpaying pilots ( usualy late !) and providing companys with pilots that have no comitment to the company what so ever due to the feeling that they are being ripped off.
This can only go on as long as the supply of pilots exceeds demand and pilots are prepaired to pay these companys , if you all stopped trying to jump the line then these companys would go out of business overnight and airlines would have to recrute direct. However by this time next year things will start to swing in the pilots favior as pilot demand starts to exceed supply.
The bottom line is that at the moment the pilots ( and to a lesser degree the airlines) are being ripped of by this bunch of parasites , only the degree of rippoff chages from company to company.
The problem is that a number of even less reputable companys have jumped on the band waggon and it has become the industry norm.
I find it very sad and distastfull that these companys have manovered them selfs into a position that the industry considers them to be nesessary after all most of them are skimming proffit from both the companys and the wannabes with the wannabes paying the lions share.
I see suspect agencys underpaying pilots ( usualy late !) and providing companys with pilots that have no comitment to the company what so ever due to the feeling that they are being ripped off.
This can only go on as long as the supply of pilots exceeds demand and pilots are prepaired to pay these companys , if you all stopped trying to jump the line then these companys would go out of business overnight and airlines would have to recrute direct. However by this time next year things will start to swing in the pilots favior as pilot demand starts to exceed supply.
The bottom line is that at the moment the pilots ( and to a lesser degree the airlines) are being ripped of by this bunch of parasites , only the degree of rippoff chages from company to company.
Last edited by A and C; 9th Apr 2004 at 08:31.
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Being a fellow colleague of BPM, we've chatted about this recently, and I can only agree with most of the comments above. How is it, that in an industry where you have to fork out £60,000 for your initial training, that to get anywhere you then have to bond yourself for another £20,000. Ok, so I understand the whole idea, and airlines wanting to preotect their investment in you etc etc, but it wouldn't happen in any other industry.
I'm currently on the Dash-8, and loving every minute, but can't wait to get a jet job. However, I refuse to hand over money to places like CTC who are only interested in making money out of wannabees. It's time for their vice-like grip on airline recruitment to stop. Airlines should carry out their own recruitment in the old-fashioned way of CV's, Interviews and Sim Checks. Not "Do you have £6000 for a nice long sim session?...Yes?... Oh good. well come and give us your money, we'll give you a course which basically means jack sh*t, and then we'll put you forward to an airline for recruitment, who will then charge you another £20,000"
No doubt I'll be corrected about this, and told how wonderful the course is, but how can it be that airlines will recruit from CTC rather than externally, when external applicants who have already had an airline job have line experience, and the ability to pass a type-rating....
I'm currently on the Dash-8, and loving every minute, but can't wait to get a jet job. However, I refuse to hand over money to places like CTC who are only interested in making money out of wannabees. It's time for their vice-like grip on airline recruitment to stop. Airlines should carry out their own recruitment in the old-fashioned way of CV's, Interviews and Sim Checks. Not "Do you have £6000 for a nice long sim session?...Yes?... Oh good. well come and give us your money, we'll give you a course which basically means jack sh*t, and then we'll put you forward to an airline for recruitment, who will then charge you another £20,000"
No doubt I'll be corrected about this, and told how wonderful the course is, but how can it be that airlines will recruit from CTC rather than externally, when external applicants who have already had an airline job have line experience, and the ability to pass a type-rating....
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Hmmmm all very interesting stuff.
I have to say I am only a wipper snapper myself. It seems crazy the amount of money we spend to get ourselves trainied. I have to say I was seriously considering returning to the Uk and finishing my training but after seeing how expensive it is I think I will stay here. Better weather anyways. Maybe go fly up in the okovango delta for awhile. See more of africa.
I have to say I am only a wipper snapper myself. It seems crazy the amount of money we spend to get ourselves trainied. I have to say I was seriously considering returning to the Uk and finishing my training but after seeing how expensive it is I think I will stay here. Better weather anyways. Maybe go fly up in the okovango delta for awhile. See more of africa.
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I think that the CTC product, these days, is past its sell by. There is a very worrying dependency on them by some airlines. This combined with the training some pilots have been on the receiving end of makes for disappointing reading
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I too with almost 3000 jet hours, find it increasingly difficult to get a job with the major charter companies. I am especially interested in working for Monarch. I have always been "kept on file". Yet I hear that still CTC cadets are always preferred and taken on. I don't see entrants to Monarch coming from any other source. Oh by the way, the 3 conditions would all be fullfilled if I left my current jet job and transferred to a charter. Sure the summers would be busy, but no busier that I am now.
I'll just keep trying
I'll just keep trying
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Who polices the aviation training industry?
This thread has raised a number of points about aviation training which seem to be recurring over and over again at all levels of the industry. Lack of instructional and coaching skills, people of ability failing at the last or key hurdles, training organisations which may effectively be ripping people off. So the question is, why does this situation continue uncontrolled? After all, in most other areas there are third parties assigned the responsibility of ensuring the quality of goods or services provided, and to which recourse may be made. Where is this in the aviation training world?
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The very route of the problem at CTC is that paternal favouritism is now playing a big factor in training attitudes, direction and recruitment.
Plus the market is currently being driven by schemes such as TRSS etc.
Plus the market is currently being driven by schemes such as TRSS etc.
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Have to agree with Dogma, the CTC product is past its sell by date.
I came through CTC at a time when no money needed to be parted with (only lasted about 6 months I think!) and at that time was a pretty good product however these days I hear far too many bad reports from Southampton.
I came through CTC at a time when no money needed to be parted with (only lasted about 6 months I think!) and at that time was a pretty good product however these days I hear far too many bad reports from Southampton.
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Anybody know why there are so many Dutch guys going through the scheme at the moment...?
The Company I'm with has about 35 guys being put through the mill at the moment..... I think all but about 4 or 5 are Dutch.......
WHY ?
I'm sure there are many British prospective pilots that would give their right arm for a shot at this..... so why Dutch....?
I've never seen an opportunity in Holland for me to do this, so why do we have "foreign" pilots filling the seats of UK based jets....AGAIN !!!!
The Company I'm with has about 35 guys being put through the mill at the moment..... I think all but about 4 or 5 are Dutch.......
WHY ?
I'm sure there are many British prospective pilots that would give their right arm for a shot at this..... so why Dutch....?
I've never seen an opportunity in Holland for me to do this, so why do we have "foreign" pilots filling the seats of UK based jets....AGAIN !!!!
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Did a sim ride with Easyjet a while ago for a DE Command on the 737.
CTC 'instructor' did the assessment.
I only did one thing wrong (a minor mistake right at the beginning) and admitted it on my self assessment form.
Got the thumbs down and when I asked EZY for a copy of the 'instructors' report (freedom of information etc) I was told they wouldn't do that but told me, apart from the error that I was aware of, the rest of the sim was to a good standard.
From my previous training experience the error that I made was only worth a comment - the rest of the exercise was to IR standard and I found pretty straightforward.
The whole episode backed up comments I had heard from other people and I have not considered EZY ever since (until that is they have a lot less to do with CTC).
I have heard from someone I have a great deal of respect for that they have some excellent sim instructors at CTC but they are in a minority.
CTC 'instructor' did the assessment.
I only did one thing wrong (a minor mistake right at the beginning) and admitted it on my self assessment form.
Got the thumbs down and when I asked EZY for a copy of the 'instructors' report (freedom of information etc) I was told they wouldn't do that but told me, apart from the error that I was aware of, the rest of the sim was to a good standard.
From my previous training experience the error that I made was only worth a comment - the rest of the exercise was to IR standard and I found pretty straightforward.
The whole episode backed up comments I had heard from other people and I have not considered EZY ever since (until that is they have a lot less to do with CTC).
I have heard from someone I have a great deal of respect for that they have some excellent sim instructors at CTC but they are in a minority.
Last edited by Cuillin; 11th Apr 2004 at 14:45.
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I've never seen an opportunity in Holland for me to do this, so why do we have "foreign" pilots filling the seats of UK based jets....AGAIN !!!!
The downside for us is, of course, how many Dutch speak English, or more to the point how many Brits speak Dutchy?
The EU and JAR licences enable any European 'foreigner' to work in the UK, with the inclusion of The Czech Republic, Poland, Cyprus etc. where salaries are lower for pilots, the promised land, once again, appears to be good ol' blighty.
It wasn't that long ago when the jobs market was swamed with ex-1989 Australians, all prepared to work for less than the locals. So once again a scenario exists whereby the British national pilot cannot see any improvement in standard of living and increases in payscales.
May Le Pen has a point after all?
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Sorry securID but you are wrong. I couldn't get a job flying in Holland even though I speak fluent Dutch, anyway I fly with a much better british airline now but I am getting sick of the foreigners getting work in aviation on this side of the Channel.
A few of my colleagues went through CTC years ago when it first started but I hear that the standard of people coming out of the establishment is not what it used to be.
Is it true that a certain Tangerine coloured airline insists on autopilot use above 1000'. If so then enough said!
A few of my colleagues went through CTC years ago when it first started but I hear that the standard of people coming out of the establishment is not what it used to be.
Is it true that a certain Tangerine coloured airline insists on autopilot use above 1000'. If so then enough said!
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Go home!
There are obviously so many more flying jobs in the uk than any where else. What we really need is a load of foreign pukes to fly our jets for us while we sit on the ground dreaming of an air taxi rhs.
Naff off!!! 
Naff off!!!
Last edited by BigHairyBum; 11th Apr 2004 at 16:56.