Is CTC the only way forward??
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It would be difficult to consider CTC as a quality training provider as one essential component of decent training is decent feedback on your performance. This is something that was lacking at CTC (actually an open refusal to give any kind of feedback) the last time I enquired about their services (admittedly 18 months ago) and one of the reasons I won't spend any money going there.
However, I know of a number of people who have gone there and passed through successfully, and for them it has been a good and useful route into a RHS and I wish them well.
I guess it just boils down to how desperate you are to take any route you can. Or maybe I just have too many screws loose.
However, I know of a number of people who have gone there and passed through successfully, and for them it has been a good and useful route into a RHS and I wish them well.
I guess it just boils down to how desperate you are to take any route you can. Or maybe I just have too many screws loose.
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about 6 years ago I did a contract in Belgium with TNT. Those years the majority of pilots with DHL, TNT and for a big part DAT where brits. I reckon the belgian pilot community at that time was about 40% foreign (mostly brits and aussies). Strange that we never hear about those times anymore. Guess thats why you guys don,t have the jobs you wanted, your box is to narrow!. Would be running to Mama if a low cost would send you to the continent, guess thats why they have got the"foreigners". Did several stints on the continent, never a problem getting one.
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A300dude,
Clearly those "stints on the continent" didn't require someone who was literate.
Guess thats why you guys don,t have the jobs you wanted, your box is to narrow!. Would be running to Mama if a low cost would send you to the continent, guess thats why they have got the"foreigners". Did several stints on the continent, never a problem getting one
Clearly those "stints on the continent" didn't require someone who was literate.
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Wheelbarrow
Perfectly lucid comments put forward by individuals as far as I can see.
Accountants like CTC cadets because they pay for everything themselves and can be disposed of at short notice.
I, for one, look forward to a more sensible form of recruitment than who has got the biggest chequebook or the most amiable bank manager. Yes, there is a selection procedure - but that is what it comes down to at the end of the day.
There are people with type ratings and thousands of hours who have been trying to get into Monarch recently but only on a full time contract. CTC cadets win hands down in the selection race because cost is paramount and Monarch (financially) are on a win, win deal in respect of the CTC cadets.
In respect of your dig at (possibly) my previous post then I have more than made the grade in my aviation career - several times over in fact.
The problem is not mine but somewhere else.
Perfectly lucid comments put forward by individuals as far as I can see.
Accountants like CTC cadets because they pay for everything themselves and can be disposed of at short notice.
I, for one, look forward to a more sensible form of recruitment than who has got the biggest chequebook or the most amiable bank manager. Yes, there is a selection procedure - but that is what it comes down to at the end of the day.
There are people with type ratings and thousands of hours who have been trying to get into Monarch recently but only on a full time contract. CTC cadets win hands down in the selection race because cost is paramount and Monarch (financially) are on a win, win deal in respect of the CTC cadets.
In respect of your dig at (possibly) my previous post then I have more than made the grade in my aviation career - several times over in fact.
The problem is not mine but somewhere else.
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Wheelbarrow..... You obviously have made the grade through CTC. Tell me, after forking out for all your training (or did someone else pay for it?) how did you manage to get the money for CTC? Bank manager a friend of the family or something?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I think you'll find that most of the comments are from pilots who live in the real-world, and managed to get a flying job through sheer hard work and determination. There are a huge number of qualified pilots out there looking for jobs, whether it's a first job or trying to move from a small carrier to a larger one and get that elusive jet job, and it would be a lot fairer on everyone concerned to level the playing field and take money out of the situation.
I have no doubt that there are extremely good pilots out there who would excel in an airline job - having the right personality as well as flying skills. However, perhaps because funding their initial training absolutely wiped out their bank account, and loans are still being re-paid, they haven't even considered CTC because of the further cost involved. And yet some tw*t who only just scraped through initial training but has lots of money could easily go there and get a job to which they are really not suited.
Now before I get everyone having a go at me for wide-sweeping statements, I am not suggesting that everyone who goes to CTC is a rich tw*t! Far from it. All I'm saying, and I think what the whole gist of this post is, is that money should not be a factor in recruitment. It should come down to old-fashioned CV's, Interviews and Sim Checks, and then once you are accepted for your training, you can then be bonded to the airline. With a normal pay-packet making it's way into your bank account from the day you sign your contract the only way you'll be liable for any money is if you fail the course (so make sure you don't!) or if you leave. And if you leave, it's most likely for another job, in which case you have no option but to pay back the airline the money they invested in you.
If Safeway decided to start asking all new personnel for £500 for the cost involved of training them how to work the till and how to stack shelves correctly, all hell would break loose. Not because Safeway want to safeguard their time and money invested in you, but because it would rule out all those people who can't afford £500 from getting a job. If it doesn't happen anywhere else, why should we allow it to continue in aviation.......
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I think you'll find that most of the comments are from pilots who live in the real-world, and managed to get a flying job through sheer hard work and determination. There are a huge number of qualified pilots out there looking for jobs, whether it's a first job or trying to move from a small carrier to a larger one and get that elusive jet job, and it would be a lot fairer on everyone concerned to level the playing field and take money out of the situation.
I have no doubt that there are extremely good pilots out there who would excel in an airline job - having the right personality as well as flying skills. However, perhaps because funding their initial training absolutely wiped out their bank account, and loans are still being re-paid, they haven't even considered CTC because of the further cost involved. And yet some tw*t who only just scraped through initial training but has lots of money could easily go there and get a job to which they are really not suited.
Now before I get everyone having a go at me for wide-sweeping statements, I am not suggesting that everyone who goes to CTC is a rich tw*t! Far from it. All I'm saying, and I think what the whole gist of this post is, is that money should not be a factor in recruitment. It should come down to old-fashioned CV's, Interviews and Sim Checks, and then once you are accepted for your training, you can then be bonded to the airline. With a normal pay-packet making it's way into your bank account from the day you sign your contract the only way you'll be liable for any money is if you fail the course (so make sure you don't!) or if you leave. And if you leave, it's most likely for another job, in which case you have no option but to pay back the airline the money they invested in you.
If Safeway decided to start asking all new personnel for £500 for the cost involved of training them how to work the till and how to stack shelves correctly, all hell would break loose. Not because Safeway want to safeguard their time and money invested in you, but because it would rule out all those people who can't afford £500 from getting a job. If it doesn't happen anywhere else, why should we allow it to continue in aviation.......
WHEELBARROW
I started this thred - and would like to know in which way "I don't make the grade".........
I've passed 3 type ratings from turbo-props to jets and have a faultless training record.
If you could give me the answer to that it'd greatly help me.
If not then stop putting stupid one line cack comments on.
I started this thred - and would like to know in which way "I don't make the grade".........
I've passed 3 type ratings from turbo-props to jets and have a faultless training record.
If you could give me the answer to that it'd greatly help me.
If not then stop putting stupid one line cack comments on.
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times never change, i wanna be a pilot, i wanna be a terboproppilot, i wanna be a jet pilot etc etc. all along the way there have always been t*****s there to releve the tyro from his cash. CTC may be expensive, but at least the people who get thru do get jobs. Unlike many of us, myself included, who have been taken in by false promises and ended up with no job and a whole in the wallet. We all get there in the end. If you want the 'easy' route get in the RAF, do your time, survive, then the worlds your training cost free oyster!!
Grim Sleeper
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And yet some tw*t who only just scraped through initial training but has lots of money could easily go there and get a job to which they are really not suited
It's not like the standard FTO's who will give you a crack at the course as long as there is money changing hands.... at CTC there is a tight selection procedure, and it is grossly unfair and unlikely to suggest that someone who scraped through initial training and was ill-suited to the job would get near an airline through CTC.
It sounds terrible, but it would appear that this is the shape of things to come in aviation training......
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I unfortunately agree with Slims last sentiments , to the airlines there is only one bottom line and CTC appear to satisfy that.
How long though before OATS/Jerez etc start a course from ab-initio which will then include a type rating at the end of it ??- the ME/IR and MCC is becoming just a "starter for ten"?? - i can see this happening in this crazy industry if it hasn't happened already..
How long though before OATS/Jerez etc start a course from ab-initio which will then include a type rating at the end of it ??- the ME/IR and MCC is becoming just a "starter for ten"?? - i can see this happening in this crazy industry if it hasn't happened already..
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two points.
first, you don't need to be particularly bright or talented to become an airline pilot. These days it is little more than a higher level computer operators job. That is not to say that there are not very talented pilots flying airliners, there are. But it is not a prerequiste for the job. I was once told that the BA selection procedure weeded out overly intelligent candidates as their boredom threshold would be too low to spend years in the job. Might just be true.
second, assuming that you are of just about adequate intelligence and ability, to qualify as an airline pilot all you have to do is keep throwing money at the problem and you'll end up with all the right qualifications and ratings to get the job. Do you know of anyone who took more than six attempts to get an initial IR, I do. How much did that cost? Please don't tell me that an airline will turn its nose up at a guy/girl who turns up on their doorstep with the ink on their self sponsered atpl and Airbus rating still damp. They'll certainly look at you, and if times are tough in the industry,ie anytime, they won't even look too hard. I know of any number of people with self bought ratings who work in the charter side of things.
I'm not having a go at anyone and when you look at the financial hardship many go thru to get an airline job, I think they deserve a medal. But the bottom line is CTC graduates are cheap, thats why its a popular scheme with the airlines.
first, you don't need to be particularly bright or talented to become an airline pilot. These days it is little more than a higher level computer operators job. That is not to say that there are not very talented pilots flying airliners, there are. But it is not a prerequiste for the job. I was once told that the BA selection procedure weeded out overly intelligent candidates as their boredom threshold would be too low to spend years in the job. Might just be true.
second, assuming that you are of just about adequate intelligence and ability, to qualify as an airline pilot all you have to do is keep throwing money at the problem and you'll end up with all the right qualifications and ratings to get the job. Do you know of anyone who took more than six attempts to get an initial IR, I do. How much did that cost? Please don't tell me that an airline will turn its nose up at a guy/girl who turns up on their doorstep with the ink on their self sponsered atpl and Airbus rating still damp. They'll certainly look at you, and if times are tough in the industry,ie anytime, they won't even look too hard. I know of any number of people with self bought ratings who work in the charter side of things.
I'm not having a go at anyone and when you look at the financial hardship many go thru to get an airline job, I think they deserve a medal. But the bottom line is CTC graduates are cheap, thats why its a popular scheme with the airlines.
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Skid, could I suggest you use a spelling and grammar check before you post any comments! Your comments, though thought provoking, carry little weight as your grasp of the English language is, to be perfectly honest, shocking!
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Wow, what a lot of bitterness there is on this one!
I came through the CTC ATP scheme, and it is pretty much a god send, especially with aviation as it is now - but it's not the only way in. Quite a few of my mates got flyBE, ryanair jobs etc - so why not slag off them for not selecting everyone too!
As far as the finances go in saying CTC is a rip off, can't disagree more. You pay 6.5k for the initial 36 hours in the NG sim, and then when the final line check is complete get 2k back. So right, now I'm 73/3-900 rated for 4.5k - not bad esp seen as I had 200 hours before hand! And the eJ TRSS scheme alone costs experienced tprop folk 25k out of pocket! Plus, with the ATP scheme you go onto full FO wages after 6 months - not bad for a company purely setting out to rip people off, don't you think!!!
I came through the CTC ATP scheme, and it is pretty much a god send, especially with aviation as it is now - but it's not the only way in. Quite a few of my mates got flyBE, ryanair jobs etc - so why not slag off them for not selecting everyone too!
As far as the finances go in saying CTC is a rip off, can't disagree more. You pay 6.5k for the initial 36 hours in the NG sim, and then when the final line check is complete get 2k back. So right, now I'm 73/3-900 rated for 4.5k - not bad esp seen as I had 200 hours before hand! And the eJ TRSS scheme alone costs experienced tprop folk 25k out of pocket! Plus, with the ATP scheme you go onto full FO wages after 6 months - not bad for a company purely setting out to rip people off, don't you think!!!
Last edited by Bobby Guzzler; 14th Apr 2004 at 09:24.
Funny Old World,
In 1986 I had 7000hrs & was a TRE/IRE on a 4 engined turboprop (VC8) but was considered too inexperienced to go straight on to the Boeing 757 so went onto a round dial 737-300 Right seat of course.
Now it would seem you only need 200 hrs of which only a few are on something like a senica (Very Small light Twin). Right Seat 757 doing the exact same Job as all those Guys/Girls who must have had more experience than me at the time.
Ho! Hum! but standards are being Maintained?
In 1986 I had 7000hrs & was a TRE/IRE on a 4 engined turboprop (VC8) but was considered too inexperienced to go straight on to the Boeing 757 so went onto a round dial 737-300 Right seat of course.
Now it would seem you only need 200 hrs of which only a few are on something like a senica (Very Small light Twin). Right Seat 757 doing the exact same Job as all those Guys/Girls who must have had more experience than me at the time.
Ho! Hum! but standards are being Maintained?
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My mistake. And I'm not being sarcastic. Ok, so with all the selection procedures that take place to get into CTC, someone who scraped through initial training wouldn't get in. But I was trying to make the point that money could be the deciding factor between two candidates, one who has the correct personality and attitude to working in an airline, and the other who perhaps doesn't, but has the money to get in.
Oh, and as far as going on to full FO wages after 6 months, I had a friend who went the CTC way and got a job with Easy. It took 6 months before she actually got any wages. So pay up £6000, get a type-rating, get a job, but we won't give you any money for 6 months. Might not be the same now, but she sure as hell struggled to pay bills etc whilst working for no money. Oh, and those first 6 months of working, she didn't accumulate any holiday time either.
Oh, and as far as going on to full FO wages after 6 months, I had a friend who went the CTC way and got a job with Easy. It took 6 months before she actually got any wages. So pay up £6000, get a type-rating, get a job, but we won't give you any money for 6 months. Might not be the same now, but she sure as hell struggled to pay bills etc whilst working for no money. Oh, and those first 6 months of working, she didn't accumulate any holiday time either.
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I applied for the scheme 2 years ago. I filled in the form and then had the most arrogant concieted reply I have ever recieved, it went along the lines of, you are not CTC material. My queustion is how the bloody hell can they figure that when all of my flight tests were passed first time along with most of the Jar exams.
I really was agrieved at the time that I had not been given a proper chance to show what I was capable of based probably on them seeing my school results which to be frank does not matter a jot when it comes to flying an aircraft. YOU,VE EITHER GOT IT OR YOU HAVN'T
I really was agrieved at the time that I had not been given a proper chance to show what I was capable of based probably on them seeing my school results which to be frank does not matter a jot when it comes to flying an aircraft. YOU,VE EITHER GOT IT OR YOU HAVN'T
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I recently met a gentlemen who used to work for Gabon airlines (west africa in case you didnt know) flying one of there 737's. And guess what - he didnt even have a PPL. Now tell me there isnt something funny going on there.
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CV Donator, I'm afraid the application form is part of a selection procedure and that is what companies use to call people forward. From the answers you put down on the form they will have made up their mind. Perhaps you should have examined your answers, for the reason you were not selected, rather than pondering on other reasons. After all, the procedure works fine for everyone else!
As those that are experienced in the job will testify, there is more to flying than "you either got it or you haven't"!
As those that are experienced in the job will testify, there is more to flying than "you either got it or you haven't"!