250 hrs - I wish!
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250 hrs - I wish!
Everyone on this website talks about the 250 hr wannabe and what a hard time it is at the moment. Here is my situation, I am sure others are in the same boat, and I would appreciate some advice:
I gained my fATPL just over a year ago and, due to hard work, determination and some luck, passed all tests first time. This meant I left flight school with 159 hrs!! All of those "in the know" on here say work your way up, start at the bottom etc. I am quite willing to do so (I would quite happily fly anything for anyone for pratically nothing just to get some hours) but my problem is that with so few hours nobody will look at me.
Everytime I look at my CV and it says 176 hrs (I have flown from a local club on what I could afford to reach this heady figure) I am embarrassed. Now, I would love to do an FI rating but need to pay for many more hours just to start and then pay for the rating. I don't want to just keep flying an hour VFR in a single every few weeks, as enjoyable as this is it isn't really helping. I am working as a baggage handler at the nearest airport to try and make some contacts but it is quite difficult.
Please don't reply with "this was always a possibility when you started, surely you knew..." yes it was a possibility but I started before sep 11 and even the most average of pilots were getting at least some form of flying job.
While I appreciate the difference is minimal between me and a 250 hr guy airlines such as Britannia obviously see it! I also acknowledge that to most experienced pilots anything under 1000 hrs is low hours but how did these guys get to 250 hrs (was it by circuit bashing etc.)? Any advice would be appreciated.
WDJ
I gained my fATPL just over a year ago and, due to hard work, determination and some luck, passed all tests first time. This meant I left flight school with 159 hrs!! All of those "in the know" on here say work your way up, start at the bottom etc. I am quite willing to do so (I would quite happily fly anything for anyone for pratically nothing just to get some hours) but my problem is that with so few hours nobody will look at me.
Everytime I look at my CV and it says 176 hrs (I have flown from a local club on what I could afford to reach this heady figure) I am embarrassed. Now, I would love to do an FI rating but need to pay for many more hours just to start and then pay for the rating. I don't want to just keep flying an hour VFR in a single every few weeks, as enjoyable as this is it isn't really helping. I am working as a baggage handler at the nearest airport to try and make some contacts but it is quite difficult.
Please don't reply with "this was always a possibility when you started, surely you knew..." yes it was a possibility but I started before sep 11 and even the most average of pilots were getting at least some form of flying job.
While I appreciate the difference is minimal between me and a 250 hr guy airlines such as Britannia obviously see it! I also acknowledge that to most experienced pilots anything under 1000 hrs is low hours but how did these guys get to 250 hrs (was it by circuit bashing etc.)? Any advice would be appreciated.
WDJ
Last edited by Wave Drag Jones; 20th Oct 2003 at 18:55.
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Errrm, if I may be so bold as to say "bo11ocks"
You can only commence CPL training once you have 150 hours total time. So CPL and IR in 9 hours, I don't think so.
Journo, perhaps!?
(LASORS Section D 1.2)
You can only commence CPL training once you have 150 hours total time. So CPL and IR in 9 hours, I don't think so.
Journo, perhaps!?
(LASORS Section D 1.2)
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WDJ
I understand where you are coming from and sympathise, if certain institutions place a minimum number of hours as an entry restriction in the wannabe category.
In my experience, I do not believe that there can necessarily be a distinction between a guy (or gal for that matter!) that has 157 hours and one that may have as many as 1,000 hours.
At the end of the day, ability and 'useful experience' is paramount; some are better than others, naturally and also the training environment and how one earned those extra hours will have a bigger bearing on the experience level and ability.
I know that from personal experience. I went down the 700 hour route, some considerable time ago, of which 500 hours were 'burnt off' flying on my own in a rented C152 and some considerable twin time. What did that proove? Not a lot, but it got the tick in the box from the CAA to enable me to qualify to do my commercial! I then got limited training at the IR stage, sufficient just to pass the IR etc. That was the only training I received from the PPL stage until I did my commercial. A flaw in the system perhaps because, looking back, those 500 hours flown were wasted and I learned nothing more than could have probably been given me by a further 50 hours of instruction by someone that knew better than me!
If an airline sets a limit on hours, well that's their perogative, but I don't honestly think you will find that a huge impediment. Just keep trying and sending those CV's off and your chance will come. I've been involved for a few years now in pilot recruitment, selection and most importantly, assessment. I have seen guys with the bare minimum number of hours pass assessments when guys with well over 1,000 hours have failed the same assessment.
Take confidence; you got this far, persevere!
Cb
Hmmm
Sniggs got his post in, using a few words, whilst I pondered my response, as usual.
If Sniggs is correct, then I apologise to Danny for wasting his valuable bandwidth whilst I waffled on the subject. Sniggs is probably better informed on the technical requirement to obtail a CPL.
However, the sentiments and content of my message still stand!
Cb
I understand where you are coming from and sympathise, if certain institutions place a minimum number of hours as an entry restriction in the wannabe category.
In my experience, I do not believe that there can necessarily be a distinction between a guy (or gal for that matter!) that has 157 hours and one that may have as many as 1,000 hours.
At the end of the day, ability and 'useful experience' is paramount; some are better than others, naturally and also the training environment and how one earned those extra hours will have a bigger bearing on the experience level and ability.
I know that from personal experience. I went down the 700 hour route, some considerable time ago, of which 500 hours were 'burnt off' flying on my own in a rented C152 and some considerable twin time. What did that proove? Not a lot, but it got the tick in the box from the CAA to enable me to qualify to do my commercial! I then got limited training at the IR stage, sufficient just to pass the IR etc. That was the only training I received from the PPL stage until I did my commercial. A flaw in the system perhaps because, looking back, those 500 hours flown were wasted and I learned nothing more than could have probably been given me by a further 50 hours of instruction by someone that knew better than me!
If an airline sets a limit on hours, well that's their perogative, but I don't honestly think you will find that a huge impediment. Just keep trying and sending those CV's off and your chance will come. I've been involved for a few years now in pilot recruitment, selection and most importantly, assessment. I have seen guys with the bare minimum number of hours pass assessments when guys with well over 1,000 hours have failed the same assessment.
Take confidence; you got this far, persevere!
Cb
Hmmm
Sniggs got his post in, using a few words, whilst I pondered my response, as usual.
If Sniggs is correct, then I apologise to Danny for wasting his valuable bandwidth whilst I waffled on the subject. Sniggs is probably better informed on the technical requirement to obtail a CPL.
However, the sentiments and content of my message still stand!
Cb
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snigs
ERRR, no, I do not think so. As a former INTEGRATED OATS student, I confirm that you can start CPL training on an INTEGRATED course before you have 150 hours.
I think I started my CPL skills test training with about 90 hours on the course. I got my CPL with about 110, then got the full IRT issued with about 170...which was about minimum then.
So, perhaps you could check your facts? Otherwise my licenec is invalid... and CTC, jmc, Air2000 and DHL have all broken the law by allowing me to fly one of their aircraft at some time or another!
wdj
Do not give up. It is a long road, one which has garnered many potholes post Sept11.
Just fly as much as you can, and keep firing out CV's.
As for Britannia..... well, the difference between 175 hours and 250 is irrelevant really. They are looking for a type of person to train. Perhaps you did not fit their mould?
I know that I do not. I tried twice recently to join them and was given a big NO THANKS!!! And I already fly a 757.....
C'est la vie! Keep your chin up!
ERRR, no, I do not think so. As a former INTEGRATED OATS student, I confirm that you can start CPL training on an INTEGRATED course before you have 150 hours.
I think I started my CPL skills test training with about 90 hours on the course. I got my CPL with about 110, then got the full IRT issued with about 170...which was about minimum then.
So, perhaps you could check your facts? Otherwise my licenec is invalid... and CTC, jmc, Air2000 and DHL have all broken the law by allowing me to fly one of their aircraft at some time or another!
wdj
Do not give up. It is a long road, one which has garnered many potholes post Sept11.
Just fly as much as you can, and keep firing out CV's.
As for Britannia..... well, the difference between 175 hours and 250 is irrelevant really. They are looking for a type of person to train. Perhaps you did not fit their mould?
I know that I do not. I tried twice recently to join them and was given a big NO THANKS!!! And I already fly a 757.....
C'est la vie! Keep your chin up!
Reading Lasors I can't see how one could gain a CPL/IR with less than 180 hours unless the 25/40 hours of simulator instruction counts towards the 80 hours dual instruction requirement.
Here's the link, see what you think.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_D.pdf
Here's the link, see what you think.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_D.pdf
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Thanks for the replies.
Snigs - I am not a journo (perhaps I should be so I could make some money) I started the OAT integrated with 0 hrs and left with 159, one month later the CAA sent me my little blue book!
I should add that I did get to go to the first round of the DHL selection back in April but that seems like a long time ago now! I shall go back to flying whenever I can.
I didn't mean this to be another wannabe moaning post it just seemed that everyone talked of 250 hrs being the minimum you could possibly have and I was sure there must be more people in my situation.
WDJ
Snigs - I am not a journo (perhaps I should be so I could make some money) I started the OAT integrated with 0 hrs and left with 159, one month later the CAA sent me my little blue book!
I should add that I did get to go to the first round of the DHL selection back in April but that seems like a long time ago now! I shall go back to flying whenever I can.
I didn't mean this to be another wannabe moaning post it just seemed that everyone talked of 250 hrs being the minimum you could possibly have and I was sure there must be more people in my situation.
WDJ
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I have met a few people with similar low hours.
I think you have to do as much as possible in the sim to be able to do it. They only come out with 7-12 twin hours or something daft like that.
As far as I can see this just renforces my view on the value of using FNPT to the maximum limits (II especially). You are paying for training yes but you don't get the hours where it counts in your log book. Quite alot of companys will have a 50 hour rule for insurance and 30 hours for jar ops which would be nigh on impossible for these intergrated students.
MJ
I think you have to do as much as possible in the sim to be able to do it. They only come out with 7-12 twin hours or something daft like that.
As far as I can see this just renforces my view on the value of using FNPT to the maximum limits (II especially). You are paying for training yes but you don't get the hours where it counts in your log book. Quite alot of companys will have a 50 hour rule for insurance and 30 hours for jar ops which would be nigh on impossible for these intergrated students.
MJ
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Mad Jock
I'm not so sure I agree with your comments about insurance requirements etc, but I do stand to be corrected and will go find the answers. I would however be surprised if what you say is correct as the issuance of an 'approved commercial licence' says it all. The holder has achieved the minimum JAA standard to operate an aicraft commercially, subject to the relevant type rating endorsement.
Subject to the above, my point is that certain airlines may set a criteria for consideration, which might be arbitary, hence my comments about 157 hours versus 1000 hours. At the end of the day, ability is what counts and my experience shows that the number of 'logged hours' is not the indicator for ability; far from it!
But, remember, that is their choice (the airlines, for example!)
Agree with MJ about practice. Instrument scan is paramount in an assessment, however you achieve it. That is more important than hours logged in a book; they are worthless, whilst ability is paramount!
Hope this helps.
Cb
I'm not so sure I agree with your comments about insurance requirements etc, but I do stand to be corrected and will go find the answers. I would however be surprised if what you say is correct as the issuance of an 'approved commercial licence' says it all. The holder has achieved the minimum JAA standard to operate an aicraft commercially, subject to the relevant type rating endorsement.
Subject to the above, my point is that certain airlines may set a criteria for consideration, which might be arbitary, hence my comments about 157 hours versus 1000 hours. At the end of the day, ability is what counts and my experience shows that the number of 'logged hours' is not the indicator for ability; far from it!
But, remember, that is their choice (the airlines, for example!)
Agree with MJ about practice. Instrument scan is paramount in an assessment, however you achieve it. That is more important than hours logged in a book; they are worthless, whilst ability is paramount!
Hope this helps.
Cb
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I should maybe clarify a wee bi.
I was refering to SPA-MEP-IFR
Looking at JAR-OPS1 Sub N
min of 700 hours, 400PIC, 100 IFR and 40hrs Multi engined operation.
I can see companys being happy with 10-15 hours line training dual but not 25-30.
And it is hours in the log book that count. If you go modular and do everything you can in the twin you arrive at something in the region of 50-55 hours.
But then again if all you are interested in is wanging round in jets it won't be an issue.
But as you can see from this poster, they have done all the things required, spent alot of money on an intergrated course worked hard passed everything thats required and still they are faced with problems.
Maybe I am just being a tight jock, but it always seemed to me you were getting more for your money driving the real thing than sitting in the sim, purely because the hours in the log book were counted for something.
If i could log all the hours in FNPT I I did solo or with another student sitting behined me I would have left training with 400 hrs plus compared to 225hrs 55MEP that was with a FI rating
225 hrs 51MEP and 157hrs 10MEP
Just looking at the numbers makes a big difference.
MJ
I was refering to SPA-MEP-IFR
Looking at JAR-OPS1 Sub N
min of 700 hours, 400PIC, 100 IFR and 40hrs Multi engined operation.
I can see companys being happy with 10-15 hours line training dual but not 25-30.
And it is hours in the log book that count. If you go modular and do everything you can in the twin you arrive at something in the region of 50-55 hours.
But then again if all you are interested in is wanging round in jets it won't be an issue.
But as you can see from this poster, they have done all the things required, spent alot of money on an intergrated course worked hard passed everything thats required and still they are faced with problems.
Maybe I am just being a tight jock, but it always seemed to me you were getting more for your money driving the real thing than sitting in the sim, purely because the hours in the log book were counted for something.
If i could log all the hours in FNPT I I did solo or with another student sitting behined me I would have left training with 400 hrs plus compared to 225hrs 55MEP that was with a FI rating
225 hrs 51MEP and 157hrs 10MEP
Just looking at the numbers makes a big difference.
MJ
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The basic integrated course at my current school:
* 145 hours in the aircraft of which 20 are in the twin.
* 40 Hours IR training FNPT2 (including a maximum of 10 hrs in
the FNPT1),
* 15 hours MCC FNPT2
Grand total 200 Hours.
I had an abridged course because I held a PPL. Thats 20 hrs deducted leaving 125 hours in the aircraft for the entire course!
* 145 hours in the aircraft of which 20 are in the twin.
* 40 Hours IR training FNPT2 (including a maximum of 10 hrs in
the FNPT1),
* 15 hours MCC FNPT2
Grand total 200 Hours.
I had an abridged course because I held a PPL. Thats 20 hrs deducted leaving 125 hours in the aircraft for the entire course!
I feel slightly concerned churning out Blue books at the 157hr mark. I've seen it done, some have been students that I have flown with, and at the end of the day they all passed the same tests as everyone else.
But.
It just seems too little. Especially when you look at how much of the training is synthetic. How much is actualy SPIC with an instructor on board pretending not to be there <cough - yeah right>. These people often have not a single minute of solo time in a twin..
The old 700hr route is often decried but it DID allow you to earn your spurs a bit. The Go - No Go decisions, the pushing your limits and scaring yourself times, the I Learned About Flying From That occurrences.
I think the UK average PPL has well in excess of 157hrs.
Still, drilling holes in the sky and learning gash single pilot habits is not particulaly useful either.
Cheers
WWW
But.
It just seems too little. Especially when you look at how much of the training is synthetic. How much is actualy SPIC with an instructor on board pretending not to be there <cough - yeah right>. These people often have not a single minute of solo time in a twin..
The old 700hr route is often decried but it DID allow you to earn your spurs a bit. The Go - No Go decisions, the pushing your limits and scaring yourself times, the I Learned About Flying From That occurrences.
I think the UK average PPL has well in excess of 157hrs.
Still, drilling holes in the sky and learning gash single pilot habits is not particulaly useful either.
Cheers
WWW
Whilst agreeing with WWW that 157 hours isn't really enough to give guys a good grounding to work on, I guess that the theory is that they will never have to make those go/no go decisions with that level of experience as they are being groomed to slot straight into a multi-crew environment.
I believe that JAR-FCL recognises this as there is a much higher hours requirement for Single Crew IFR Public Transport operations. Those who don't make it straight away as multi-crew pilots then have the option to increase their experience as an instructor (IMHO good) or burn holes in the sky through hour building (IMHO bad).
Sadly there are too many graduates for the vacancies available, mainly down to the marketing departments of the integrated schools who make assertions about their graduate recruitment that would make estate agents blush.
I read in The Log, with some degree of interest, that the licensing authorities are considering introducing a multi-crew license which will further reduce the hours required, in particular solo hours, to gain the coveted "little blue book".
I believe that JAR-FCL recognises this as there is a much higher hours requirement for Single Crew IFR Public Transport operations. Those who don't make it straight away as multi-crew pilots then have the option to increase their experience as an instructor (IMHO good) or burn holes in the sky through hour building (IMHO bad).
Sadly there are too many graduates for the vacancies available, mainly down to the marketing departments of the integrated schools who make assertions about their graduate recruitment that would make estate agents blush.
I read in The Log, with some degree of interest, that the licensing authorities are considering introducing a multi-crew license which will further reduce the hours required, in particular solo hours, to gain the coveted "little blue book".
The problem is that the JAA Integrated route was and is designed for people moving smoothly into RHS multi pilot operations with associated type rating course and extended line training. As few are doing so it rather means that hundreds of commercial licenses are being issued in a way that was never envisaged or intended.
At the planning stage of JAA it was thought that the Integrated route would be generally too expensive for anyone not being at least partially sponsored. Thereby gauranteing that the vast majority of Integrated students went smoothly onto further job related training. SPIC time and lower solo hours thus being allowed for Integrated courses.
That this has not happened is due to the fact that the whole thing was launched in the teeth of a hiring boom and many people were tempted - quite logically - to stump up the big money and go Integrated. There is also a hangover from the snobbery of CAP509 vs Self Improver days. Additionally the large FTO's proved adept at selling their Integrated courses to individuals despite the numbers for Modular being quite a bit better.
Never underestimate a glossy brochure and a brandname.
So here we find ourselves with 157hr Commercial pilots knocking on any door begging to be allowed to fly anything for anything.
Never flown solo at night out of the circuit. Never flown a twin/complex solo. Never flown a solo flight without a pre-brief and de-brief. Landed at only 3 airports ever. Never landed outside of a student pilot crosswind limit - typically 15kts. Sometimes never flown in or near icing conditions. Never been past 45 degrees AoB never mind upside down.
Hell - we all started somewhere and I'm far too young to hark on about the old days. BUT. Issuing 157hr CPLs to self sponsored unemployed CPLs is not in anyones interest.
It was better for the CAA, the public and the pilot when that only happened at 700hrs OR after the rather tougher better written and conducted CAP509 course had been completed.
Cheers,
WWW
At the planning stage of JAA it was thought that the Integrated route would be generally too expensive for anyone not being at least partially sponsored. Thereby gauranteing that the vast majority of Integrated students went smoothly onto further job related training. SPIC time and lower solo hours thus being allowed for Integrated courses.
That this has not happened is due to the fact that the whole thing was launched in the teeth of a hiring boom and many people were tempted - quite logically - to stump up the big money and go Integrated. There is also a hangover from the snobbery of CAP509 vs Self Improver days. Additionally the large FTO's proved adept at selling their Integrated courses to individuals despite the numbers for Modular being quite a bit better.
Never underestimate a glossy brochure and a brandname.
So here we find ourselves with 157hr Commercial pilots knocking on any door begging to be allowed to fly anything for anything.
Never flown solo at night out of the circuit. Never flown a twin/complex solo. Never flown a solo flight without a pre-brief and de-brief. Landed at only 3 airports ever. Never landed outside of a student pilot crosswind limit - typically 15kts. Sometimes never flown in or near icing conditions. Never been past 45 degrees AoB never mind upside down.
Hell - we all started somewhere and I'm far too young to hark on about the old days. BUT. Issuing 157hr CPLs to self sponsored unemployed CPLs is not in anyones interest.
It was better for the CAA, the public and the pilot when that only happened at 700hrs OR after the rather tougher better written and conducted CAP509 course had been completed.
Cheers,
WWW
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Let's not lose the focus here, the last thing WDJ wants is to feel that he's not deserving of his blue licence after all the hard work! The FCL recquirements for Integrated courses are less and they are the minimum. That's all they are, the minimum.
WDJ
My advice to you starts with changing your profile on here mate. "Perspex box over the river Thames" and especially "slacker" does not give a good impression of yourself. How do you expect to be taken seriously if you don't even take yourself seriously?
If you are a slacker then I am disappointed. Don't bother taking my advice and don't think anything of the effort I am going to write this message to you.
BE POSITIVE about yourself and don't concern yourself with other people you know who have low-hours.
You have loads going for you, things on here that already I can see are good. The fact that you were on an integrated course mean so much to the airlines mate. You coped with the pressures of the constant work and full-time aspects of the course. You say you passed everything first time, excellent! Your CV should be screaming these things out! If you are young or you think you don't have any other proven track record to descrbe in detail then you can try putting your course results and achievements in a box on your CV, highlihghting this major achievement as a section on your CV.
You have taken steps, no matter how small they are, to gain extra hours in your log-book - bloody brilliant! I've only flown an extra 2 hours since I qualified and I'm shouting about it. Every time you send a CV to an Operator you can explain the difference to your CV since the last one you sent, it should now show the extra one or two hours! This is a good excuse to write to them and shows that you are a self-improver.
Airlines will appreciate the fact that you started your course before 09/11, everyone does but you just have to keep plugging away and you will find something. Stop making excuses. Did you attend the BALPA Employment Opportunities Conference in London on the 11th October? If not, why not?
If you went you would have heard what many of the airlines had to say about their future plans for expansion and most importantly, recruitment. BA said they're not recruiting until next year, late spring, but that when they do, the low-hour pilots that they would want to see would have to have studied on an integrated course and that had achieved results equal to or better than those achieved by the 'typical' BA Cadet. (It is my understanding that you will have had to have achieved greater than 85% average in the JAA ATPL ground exams and have achieved above average flight test results) They will not be interviewing low-hour pilots from modular backgrounds. You seem to fit the bill mate so you just need to be patient on this one.
I'm ex-Oxford, integrated, 87% average, but I partialled my last progress test and IRT - Oxford make me feel like I have somehow got disastrous results but I am remaining positive myself mate. Don't listen to people being negative, surround yourself with people who are positive and optimistic and it needn't mean that you're living in 'cloud cuckoo land". Networking is so important. In this year alone I have made friends with around a dozen airline pilots and it turns out that their connections to the airlines is secondary to the friendship, encouragement, advice and inspiration that they give me!
I got my blue licence only last Friday but I was shocked and amazed when on Monday I got an invite for an interview with an airline next week! I don't know anyone who works for them, just in the right time at the right place, with a good CV. I believe the CV is everything, of course, its the thing that you need to get an interview. I am excited about getting the chance to be interviewed and am looking forward to speaking passionately about flying and how I am ready to work as a First Officer for them. You need to be the same mate, immerse yourself in it and make friends, improve your CV, fly extra hours, forget about other people with low-hours. Be positive!
Good luck and remember that yes, there is the quantity of unemployed pilots, but how much quality is there?
Fly-half
218 hours total time
WDJ
My advice to you starts with changing your profile on here mate. "Perspex box over the river Thames" and especially "slacker" does not give a good impression of yourself. How do you expect to be taken seriously if you don't even take yourself seriously?
If you are a slacker then I am disappointed. Don't bother taking my advice and don't think anything of the effort I am going to write this message to you.
BE POSITIVE about yourself and don't concern yourself with other people you know who have low-hours.
You have loads going for you, things on here that already I can see are good. The fact that you were on an integrated course mean so much to the airlines mate. You coped with the pressures of the constant work and full-time aspects of the course. You say you passed everything first time, excellent! Your CV should be screaming these things out! If you are young or you think you don't have any other proven track record to descrbe in detail then you can try putting your course results and achievements in a box on your CV, highlihghting this major achievement as a section on your CV.
You have taken steps, no matter how small they are, to gain extra hours in your log-book - bloody brilliant! I've only flown an extra 2 hours since I qualified and I'm shouting about it. Every time you send a CV to an Operator you can explain the difference to your CV since the last one you sent, it should now show the extra one or two hours! This is a good excuse to write to them and shows that you are a self-improver.
Airlines will appreciate the fact that you started your course before 09/11, everyone does but you just have to keep plugging away and you will find something. Stop making excuses. Did you attend the BALPA Employment Opportunities Conference in London on the 11th October? If not, why not?
If you went you would have heard what many of the airlines had to say about their future plans for expansion and most importantly, recruitment. BA said they're not recruiting until next year, late spring, but that when they do, the low-hour pilots that they would want to see would have to have studied on an integrated course and that had achieved results equal to or better than those achieved by the 'typical' BA Cadet. (It is my understanding that you will have had to have achieved greater than 85% average in the JAA ATPL ground exams and have achieved above average flight test results) They will not be interviewing low-hour pilots from modular backgrounds. You seem to fit the bill mate so you just need to be patient on this one.
I'm ex-Oxford, integrated, 87% average, but I partialled my last progress test and IRT - Oxford make me feel like I have somehow got disastrous results but I am remaining positive myself mate. Don't listen to people being negative, surround yourself with people who are positive and optimistic and it needn't mean that you're living in 'cloud cuckoo land". Networking is so important. In this year alone I have made friends with around a dozen airline pilots and it turns out that their connections to the airlines is secondary to the friendship, encouragement, advice and inspiration that they give me!
I got my blue licence only last Friday but I was shocked and amazed when on Monday I got an invite for an interview with an airline next week! I don't know anyone who works for them, just in the right time at the right place, with a good CV. I believe the CV is everything, of course, its the thing that you need to get an interview. I am excited about getting the chance to be interviewed and am looking forward to speaking passionately about flying and how I am ready to work as a First Officer for them. You need to be the same mate, immerse yourself in it and make friends, improve your CV, fly extra hours, forget about other people with low-hours. Be positive!
Good luck and remember that yes, there is the quantity of unemployed pilots, but how much quality is there?
Fly-half
218 hours total time
But what does being Integrated mean to the airlines?
Does it mean you paid more to have less hours? Does it mean you felt unable to control and choose your own training? Does it mean you simply had the ability to write a big enough cheque and let the big school do the rest.
Or does it mean you have received continuity of instruction. Does it mean that instruction was provided in a well structured fashion by people who were paid highish wages to be there teaching possibly as a career.
Frankly I don't think the people who make the decisions about low time employment in the majority of big, medium or small airlines know jack about flight training in this millenium. Thats the brutal truth.
The chances of seeing adverts for 'Integrated Only' ads are pretty small in my opinion in the future.
There is no point. If you say that all you are saying is "We want people with less hours, who trained over a shorter period, whose training was spooned out from day one and who were willing/able to spend more to do this". It isn't logical but due to the hangover of CAP 509 and sponsoring it may happen I grant you.
First time passes and average exam grades are even more crude. Are you going to say someone who made a sound airmanship decision to discontinue an IRT due to the marginally dangerous icing conditions is someone you don't want to hire?!? He then went on next day to fly the departure and arrival to the examiners satisfaction. Flying well within and not pushing his limits - yet partialing his test. Excellent Skipper potential demonstrated methinks...
So you got less than 85% average pass in your ATPL's. You cares. Maybe you went Integrated and got taught in a classroom of peers by a handful of fulltime instructors. You helped each other through.
Or maybe you were holding down a full time job whilst studying yourself from course notes. Maybe all you had were those notes in your back bedroom. You took those exams in you leave from work and had a family to take care of as well.
Its very easy to conclude that its much easier to pass your ATPL's by going Integrated than doing it via Modular. As an airline recruiter you are very interested in recruiting someone who can apply themselves to a type rating course under pressure without much support.
As always - the difference will be in the person - not in the training route.
There is no 'right' way of doing it. The pros and cons swing wildly between employers and years. Just make sure you make you choice informed by all the arguments and theories. That way you will always be happy that you made your choice based on all the information available at the time.
You will find out later in your career that in the end thats all that matters.
As long as you can argue how and why you made your choices the system will forgive you 99% of the time.
Good luck, and EDJ remember that every pilot in the world at one time had 157hrs..
Cheers
WWW
Does it mean you paid more to have less hours? Does it mean you felt unable to control and choose your own training? Does it mean you simply had the ability to write a big enough cheque and let the big school do the rest.
Or does it mean you have received continuity of instruction. Does it mean that instruction was provided in a well structured fashion by people who were paid highish wages to be there teaching possibly as a career.
Frankly I don't think the people who make the decisions about low time employment in the majority of big, medium or small airlines know jack about flight training in this millenium. Thats the brutal truth.
The chances of seeing adverts for 'Integrated Only' ads are pretty small in my opinion in the future.
There is no point. If you say that all you are saying is "We want people with less hours, who trained over a shorter period, whose training was spooned out from day one and who were willing/able to spend more to do this". It isn't logical but due to the hangover of CAP 509 and sponsoring it may happen I grant you.
First time passes and average exam grades are even more crude. Are you going to say someone who made a sound airmanship decision to discontinue an IRT due to the marginally dangerous icing conditions is someone you don't want to hire?!? He then went on next day to fly the departure and arrival to the examiners satisfaction. Flying well within and not pushing his limits - yet partialing his test. Excellent Skipper potential demonstrated methinks...
So you got less than 85% average pass in your ATPL's. You cares. Maybe you went Integrated and got taught in a classroom of peers by a handful of fulltime instructors. You helped each other through.
Or maybe you were holding down a full time job whilst studying yourself from course notes. Maybe all you had were those notes in your back bedroom. You took those exams in you leave from work and had a family to take care of as well.
Its very easy to conclude that its much easier to pass your ATPL's by going Integrated than doing it via Modular. As an airline recruiter you are very interested in recruiting someone who can apply themselves to a type rating course under pressure without much support.
As always - the difference will be in the person - not in the training route.
There is no 'right' way of doing it. The pros and cons swing wildly between employers and years. Just make sure you make you choice informed by all the arguments and theories. That way you will always be happy that you made your choice based on all the information available at the time.
You will find out later in your career that in the end thats all that matters.
As long as you can argue how and why you made your choices the system will forgive you 99% of the time.
Good luck, and EDJ remember that every pilot in the world at one time had 157hrs..
Cheers
WWW
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I know you mean well and I value your opinion, but as I said before, if you are going to face a simulator assessment, then the proof of the pudding is in the eating! I don't give a damn at that point how many hours a guy has got, just that he makes the grade and has a commercial licence.
If, and thats a big IF, the school he went to gave him more hours or better instruction to perform better in the sim, then that's worth thinking about, but I doubt if you or I could determine that was down to the school or the guy's inherrent ability.
You either make the grade or you don't; no matter how you got there,
Cheers
Cb
I know you mean well and I value your opinion, but as I said before, if you are going to face a simulator assessment, then the proof of the pudding is in the eating! I don't give a damn at that point how many hours a guy has got, just that he makes the grade and has a commercial licence.
If, and thats a big IF, the school he went to gave him more hours or better instruction to perform better in the sim, then that's worth thinking about, but I doubt if you or I could determine that was down to the school or the guy's inherrent ability.
You either make the grade or you don't; no matter how you got there,
Cheers
Cb
There often isn't a simulator assessment for many turboprop jobs or twin piston jobs. That was my point.
There is no point churning out 157hr pilots unless they can go straight into some form of flying that will develop them further.
6 months of CV posting will see flying skills degrade to a shocking degree as that which is intensively learnt is intensively forgotten.
The flying phase of an integrated course can often last less than 6 months. A modular route is more likely to see flying phased over 3 times that timeframe.
157hrs was envisaged to be a cadet - selected through a thorough competitive process - whisked away from a Graduation ceremony to a JOC course then Type Rating then Line Training.
If thats not happening on a big scale - and it isn't - then the training system is malfunctioning. Which it is.
Under the conditions of the last few years post Sept11th Integrated training should have tailed off to a far greater extent than Modular. This hasn't happened and as such - the theory was fine it just didn't work in practice.
Not really talking about individuals here - more the training system put in place under JAA.
Cheers
WWW
There is no point churning out 157hr pilots unless they can go straight into some form of flying that will develop them further.
6 months of CV posting will see flying skills degrade to a shocking degree as that which is intensively learnt is intensively forgotten.
The flying phase of an integrated course can often last less than 6 months. A modular route is more likely to see flying phased over 3 times that timeframe.
157hrs was envisaged to be a cadet - selected through a thorough competitive process - whisked away from a Graduation ceremony to a JOC course then Type Rating then Line Training.
If thats not happening on a big scale - and it isn't - then the training system is malfunctioning. Which it is.
Under the conditions of the last few years post Sept11th Integrated training should have tailed off to a far greater extent than Modular. This hasn't happened and as such - the theory was fine it just didn't work in practice.
Not really talking about individuals here - more the training system put in place under JAA.
Cheers
WWW