250 hrs - I wish!
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Fly half,
advice appreciated and acted on, a good slap was probably what was needed to get me out of the doldrums. Having said that I was talking to a non-aviator who, when I explained my situation, stated "well surely it's impressive that you have your licence and did so well with so little training, doesn't that mean you're a fast learner." You and he are right, concentrate on the positive rather than the lack of experience. Cheers.
WWW
I understand where you are coming from and agree with most of what you say but I would like to pick you up on one point.
You say that first time passes is a crude way to judge a trainees performance and that someone who puts off his IR due to inclement weather would not make a good skipper over someone who would push the limits. The IRT is just that... a test, a necessary hoop to jump through. Any pilot who does not see that and would rather demonstrate his aviation skills to the examiner is NOT someone I would like as my skipper. Sure in the "real world" under commercial pressure I would like to think that I would use my judgement and perhaps test the go no-go situation. You are right I don't have this experience but I would like to think that my first time passes demonstrate an ability to make the correct decision AT THAT TIME to achieve the pass. IMHO any pilot wishing to show off to an examiner is NOT a good decision maker.
WDJ
advice appreciated and acted on, a good slap was probably what was needed to get me out of the doldrums. Having said that I was talking to a non-aviator who, when I explained my situation, stated "well surely it's impressive that you have your licence and did so well with so little training, doesn't that mean you're a fast learner." You and he are right, concentrate on the positive rather than the lack of experience. Cheers.
WWW
I understand where you are coming from and agree with most of what you say but I would like to pick you up on one point.
You say that first time passes is a crude way to judge a trainees performance and that someone who puts off his IR due to inclement weather would not make a good skipper over someone who would push the limits. The IRT is just that... a test, a necessary hoop to jump through. Any pilot who does not see that and would rather demonstrate his aviation skills to the examiner is NOT someone I would like as my skipper. Sure in the "real world" under commercial pressure I would like to think that I would use my judgement and perhaps test the go no-go situation. You are right I don't have this experience but I would like to think that my first time passes demonstrate an ability to make the correct decision AT THAT TIME to achieve the pass. IMHO any pilot wishing to show off to an examiner is NOT a good decision maker.
WDJ
You say that first time passes is a crude way to judge a trainees performance
Yes it is - rarely is this ever a requirement. Its something nice to point out at interview but its not earth shattering. I wouldn't categorise it as a decision balancing issue. Maybe if you are looking at a group of hopefuls who all attended the same course at a large FTO then it would be more relevant. But then if you are doing that its much easier and better to just ask the CFI over a coffee which ones are the goats and the sheep.
and that someone who puts off his IR due to inclement weather would not make a good skipper over someone who would push the limits.
Push the limits. Not a phrase or saying you want to bandy about at interview time. I'm not talking putting off - I meant breaking off. It was my advice to students preparing for the IRT to avoid waiting for a gin clear day. Examiners, contrary to myth, are more than willing to overlook the odd excursion beyond the limits if its a bit bumpy/windy/busy. On a gin clear day they are going to set a higher limit to satisfy themselves by.
The IRT is just that... a test, a necessary hoop to jump through.
Actually I disagree. All the other tests are just hoops. The IRT is just about the one and only time you are put on the spot by someone from the CAA who is assessing your Captaincy. You can hobble around the route keeping just within all the limits and he can still fail you wihin his rights for 'lack of Captaincy'. Which basically means he wouldn't be happy to send his wife and kids up with you - for whatever reason, he wouldn't be happy. Which is why you have to make all that effort with polishing shoes, giving confident flowing weather briefs - generally demonstrate a bit of spare capacity and not look terrified. The IRT is not just a hoop.
Any pilot who does not see that and would rather demonstrate his aviation skills to the examiner is NOT someone I would like as my skipper.
I don't think that makes much sense.
Sure in the "real world" under commercial pressure I would like to think that I would use my judgement and perhaps test the go no-go situation.
The IRT is the real world and you are under commercial pressure unless Daddys a millionaire. If mid IRT something happens that makes the rest of the flight unduly difficult then a candidate deciding to break it off and RTB is going to earn a stack of brownie points with the CAFU. Typically that would be a deterioration in the weather - perhaps the icing layer is not as forecast for example. Maybe its an airspace or aerodrome issue - an emergency in progress for example or a radar failure.
Its going to cost you money. There may be a way of pushing on past the problem. But you are in an aircraft in flight doing something unplanned with a CAA Jedi say next to you. Know your limits, play it safe, RTB, live to fight another day probably tomorrow with the same examiner who is now confident that you are a conservative sort of chap who doesn't push 'situations'. big tick in the box and he was fiddling with his shoelaces as you stepped 7 degrees aside the FAT etc. etc.
You are right I don't have this experience but I would like to think that my first time passes demonstrate an ability to make the correct decision AT THAT TIME to achieve the pass. IMHO any pilot wishing to show off to an examiner is NOT a good decision maker.
Showing off good airmanship under test is exactly what you want to be doing.
Well done on your first time pass - it feels good doesn't it.
Cheers
WWW
Yes it is - rarely is this ever a requirement. Its something nice to point out at interview but its not earth shattering. I wouldn't categorise it as a decision balancing issue. Maybe if you are looking at a group of hopefuls who all attended the same course at a large FTO then it would be more relevant. But then if you are doing that its much easier and better to just ask the CFI over a coffee which ones are the goats and the sheep.
and that someone who puts off his IR due to inclement weather would not make a good skipper over someone who would push the limits.
Push the limits. Not a phrase or saying you want to bandy about at interview time. I'm not talking putting off - I meant breaking off. It was my advice to students preparing for the IRT to avoid waiting for a gin clear day. Examiners, contrary to myth, are more than willing to overlook the odd excursion beyond the limits if its a bit bumpy/windy/busy. On a gin clear day they are going to set a higher limit to satisfy themselves by.
The IRT is just that... a test, a necessary hoop to jump through.
Actually I disagree. All the other tests are just hoops. The IRT is just about the one and only time you are put on the spot by someone from the CAA who is assessing your Captaincy. You can hobble around the route keeping just within all the limits and he can still fail you wihin his rights for 'lack of Captaincy'. Which basically means he wouldn't be happy to send his wife and kids up with you - for whatever reason, he wouldn't be happy. Which is why you have to make all that effort with polishing shoes, giving confident flowing weather briefs - generally demonstrate a bit of spare capacity and not look terrified. The IRT is not just a hoop.
Any pilot who does not see that and would rather demonstrate his aviation skills to the examiner is NOT someone I would like as my skipper.
I don't think that makes much sense.
Sure in the "real world" under commercial pressure I would like to think that I would use my judgement and perhaps test the go no-go situation.
The IRT is the real world and you are under commercial pressure unless Daddys a millionaire. If mid IRT something happens that makes the rest of the flight unduly difficult then a candidate deciding to break it off and RTB is going to earn a stack of brownie points with the CAFU. Typically that would be a deterioration in the weather - perhaps the icing layer is not as forecast for example. Maybe its an airspace or aerodrome issue - an emergency in progress for example or a radar failure.
Its going to cost you money. There may be a way of pushing on past the problem. But you are in an aircraft in flight doing something unplanned with a CAA Jedi say next to you. Know your limits, play it safe, RTB, live to fight another day probably tomorrow with the same examiner who is now confident that you are a conservative sort of chap who doesn't push 'situations'. big tick in the box and he was fiddling with his shoelaces as you stepped 7 degrees aside the FAT etc. etc.
You are right I don't have this experience but I would like to think that my first time passes demonstrate an ability to make the correct decision AT THAT TIME to achieve the pass. IMHO any pilot wishing to show off to an examiner is NOT a good decision maker.
Showing off good airmanship under test is exactly what you want to be doing.
Well done on your first time pass - it feels good doesn't it.
Cheers
WWW
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Hold up my hands.
tailscrape and wdj,
I am always willing to admit it if I am wrong. I should have read LASORS a little more slowly.
It says,
(emphasis is mine)
For a modular student:
So, apologies..... I'll go and get my coat. 
I am always willing to admit it if I am wrong. I should have read LASORS a little more slowly.
It says,
A graduate from an approved CPL(A) Integrated Course shall have completed an minimum of 150 hours of flight time
For a modular student:
The holder of a PPL(A), with at least 150 hours flight time as a pilot, may commence an approved JAR CPL(A) Modular Course ......
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WWW,
apologies also from me, having reread your previous post (after only scanning it before) it appears we are fighting the same corner, although I appreciate I didn't make it too clear.
I was talking about putting off a test if the conditions were 50/50 (not just a little iffy) rather than demonstrate your ability...
Also, I was not trying to say that a first time pass should be a recruitment requirement (as you hinted by splitting my first sentence) and would wholeheartedly agree that an assessment of the person combined with flying ability should be made.
I do not believe that a first time pass makes me better than anyone else, I flew with plenty of guys and gals as good if not better pilots than me that partialled or failed for one reason or another. However, yes, I am pleased with it thank you.
WDJ
apologies also from me, having reread your previous post (after only scanning it before) it appears we are fighting the same corner, although I appreciate I didn't make it too clear.
I was talking about putting off a test if the conditions were 50/50 (not just a little iffy) rather than demonstrate your ability...
Also, I was not trying to say that a first time pass should be a recruitment requirement (as you hinted by splitting my first sentence) and would wholeheartedly agree that an assessment of the person combined with flying ability should be made.
I do not believe that a first time pass makes me better than anyone else, I flew with plenty of guys and gals as good if not better pilots than me that partialled or failed for one reason or another. However, yes, I am pleased with it thank you.
WDJ
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CTC are an option.
Or why not gain some hours by:-
-flying as a full time summer glider tug pilot
-buying a very cheap share in a PFA aircraft and flying it around (believe me, it can be VERY cheap)
And remember, its a licence to learn. Its a bit like expecting someone who has done 2 driving lessons and passed and now expects to drive a coach load of passengers around. Would you think that right?
I think you can gain a lot of experience in doing some extra hours, although I also believe that ability is as important as experience.
That extra experience will help in an airline environment, even though it is two crew.
Or why not gain some hours by:-
-flying as a full time summer glider tug pilot
-buying a very cheap share in a PFA aircraft and flying it around (believe me, it can be VERY cheap)
And remember, its a licence to learn. Its a bit like expecting someone who has done 2 driving lessons and passed and now expects to drive a coach load of passengers around. Would you think that right?
I think you can gain a lot of experience in doing some extra hours, although I also believe that ability is as important as experience.
That extra experience will help in an airline environment, even though it is two crew.
