proven employment record?
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proven employment record?
Hi first time here and trying to get information on the track record of some U.K. flying schools.
I need to convert an I.C.A.O. C.P.L. & I.R. and sit U.K. A.T.P.L.s
Is it worth while paying the bucks to someone like O.A.T. in the hope of getting picked straight from there, or does this only happen to their own ab initio students?
Should I try to save some money and convert in S.A?
Do any of the other training schools have an equal or better employment record?
I need to convert an I.C.A.O. C.P.L. & I.R. and sit U.K. A.T.P.L.s
Is it worth while paying the bucks to someone like O.A.T. in the hope of getting picked straight from there, or does this only happen to their own ab initio students?
Should I try to save some money and convert in S.A?
Do any of the other training schools have an equal or better employment record?
Join Date: Aug 2003
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A way forward ?
Start with approved distant learning for the JAR ATPL written examinations. As you see the end of the tunnel in sight, then think about the flying options to convert across.
Unless you want to throw money at it by going on a full time course at say Oxford or BAE Jerez, with a reduction in flying course time?
As ever a personnel choice.
Unless you want to throw money at it by going on a full time course at say Oxford or BAE Jerez, with a reduction in flying course time?
As ever a personnel choice.
First things first........
G'day Nobbair-
And welcome to Pprune! Mate, your posting provokes a few obvious questions in my mind, and I guess need to be addressed to make sure that your'e completely informed. I'm an Aussie (currently living in Melbourne- but moving to Manchester in about 6 weeks from now). I've completed the conversion of an Oz license with a few different schools in the UK, so I feel that I can be of some help.
1. It sounds like you are planning to move to the UK?
If so, have you done the research to ensure that you will have the right to live and work there without restriction? (ie: Right of Abode/ UK Ancestry/ Settlement)?
2. If you have not already done so, have you done a JAA Class 1 medical? This is an absolute must prior to spending a cent (penny!) on any flight/ ground tuition. The only hassle with this is that the initial medical examinaton can ONLY be done at Gatwick (CAA Headquarters).
3. If you have low hours (ie: below 1500), are you aware that conversion of your ICAO CPL/IR is going to involve a SIGNIFICANT financial commitment? The only difference between converting now, and when I did back in 1999-2000, is that anyone holding an ICAO command Multi IR is only obliged to complete IR training at the school's discretion. When I did mine, I had to do a full 55 hour course to complete the IR to satisfy the training requirements. My combined training bill/ airfares/ living evpenses/ loss of income came in to the tune of $150,000 AUD.
Anyway, not trying to tell you how to suck eggs with the above info, just making sure that you about these topics because if you do not meet these requirements in the first place, you can forget about plans for the UK.
OK- Assuming that youv'e got points 1-3 covered, I can answer your original questions.
1. To spend the money and go to OATS with the hope of being picked for an Airline?
Be under no illusions- no matter which school you attend, if you have low hours you are EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to get a jet job straight out of school. The only way to be "picked" by an Airline at such an early stage is to be sponsored by an Airline. Generally, to be sponsored by an Airline, you need to meet academic, age and citizenship requirements before you can even fill out the application form ( goes without saying). Because you already hold an ICAO CPL/IR, I think that the general concensus would be that you have too much experience to apply. At the moment, Airlines are generally not sponsorsoring students with the exception of a few. A search will show you who they are, as I don't know off the top of my head. Given your current license and a coversion to a JAA one, the only "sponsorship" of sorts that is availble is through the CTC Scheme in Southhampton. A few Airlines such as Easyjet and Brittannia source some of their low hours people through it.
Do not let any flying school tell you that they have a better chance of placing their students in Airline employment.
To give you the picture, even some low hour fATPL holders who are funding their OWN B737/ A320 type ratings are not getting jobs. In the current climate, it's all down to the market forces of supply and demand. The main point is that this is irrespective of which school you trained at. Be careful and do your homework! Some schools can claim a better TRAINING record than others though, OATS being a good example (I beleive).
I did my ATPL theory through PPSC who are sadly no longer. One school that I would recommend though is Bristol Groundschool, who have some top tutors and a great reputation amongst students hwo have studied there (residential or correspondence). I understand that Oxford is also very good.
For flight training, I went through SFT (sadly again- no longer around) and Professional Air Training (for the IR). I can honestly say that PAT gave me the best standard of training that I have ever received. Their flight instructors are very experienced and have the valuable ability to teach you a concept in various ways to make sure that you "get it". If I had my choice all over again, I would choose PAT. If you can spend the money- go there.
Which brings me to your second point- save money and do some training in South Africa: My experience was that nothing prepares you for flying in the UK more than flying in the UK. It is a VERY different place to fly. In 1998 when I was doing my research into getting my UK frozen ATPL, I considered the S.A. option. This led me to beleive that for SOME students, it became a false economy due to further training being required in the IR phase. You can TRAIN for the JAA IR in SA, but you can only fly the skills test for the IR in the UK. In every sense, there is a huge difference in IR flying between the UK and SA. My point overall is that although the JAA has approved some training in SA, in reality it may not be the cheapest way to go. Thus my decision to do the whole thing in the UK.
Hopefully this helps you- if I can be of any further help please let me know.
Best Regards,
Gearup.
And welcome to Pprune! Mate, your posting provokes a few obvious questions in my mind, and I guess need to be addressed to make sure that your'e completely informed. I'm an Aussie (currently living in Melbourne- but moving to Manchester in about 6 weeks from now). I've completed the conversion of an Oz license with a few different schools in the UK, so I feel that I can be of some help.
1. It sounds like you are planning to move to the UK?
If so, have you done the research to ensure that you will have the right to live and work there without restriction? (ie: Right of Abode/ UK Ancestry/ Settlement)?
2. If you have not already done so, have you done a JAA Class 1 medical? This is an absolute must prior to spending a cent (penny!) on any flight/ ground tuition. The only hassle with this is that the initial medical examinaton can ONLY be done at Gatwick (CAA Headquarters).
3. If you have low hours (ie: below 1500), are you aware that conversion of your ICAO CPL/IR is going to involve a SIGNIFICANT financial commitment? The only difference between converting now, and when I did back in 1999-2000, is that anyone holding an ICAO command Multi IR is only obliged to complete IR training at the school's discretion. When I did mine, I had to do a full 55 hour course to complete the IR to satisfy the training requirements. My combined training bill/ airfares/ living evpenses/ loss of income came in to the tune of $150,000 AUD.
Anyway, not trying to tell you how to suck eggs with the above info, just making sure that you about these topics because if you do not meet these requirements in the first place, you can forget about plans for the UK.
OK- Assuming that youv'e got points 1-3 covered, I can answer your original questions.
1. To spend the money and go to OATS with the hope of being picked for an Airline?
Be under no illusions- no matter which school you attend, if you have low hours you are EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to get a jet job straight out of school. The only way to be "picked" by an Airline at such an early stage is to be sponsored by an Airline. Generally, to be sponsored by an Airline, you need to meet academic, age and citizenship requirements before you can even fill out the application form ( goes without saying). Because you already hold an ICAO CPL/IR, I think that the general concensus would be that you have too much experience to apply. At the moment, Airlines are generally not sponsorsoring students with the exception of a few. A search will show you who they are, as I don't know off the top of my head. Given your current license and a coversion to a JAA one, the only "sponsorship" of sorts that is availble is through the CTC Scheme in Southhampton. A few Airlines such as Easyjet and Brittannia source some of their low hours people through it.
Do not let any flying school tell you that they have a better chance of placing their students in Airline employment.
To give you the picture, even some low hour fATPL holders who are funding their OWN B737/ A320 type ratings are not getting jobs. In the current climate, it's all down to the market forces of supply and demand. The main point is that this is irrespective of which school you trained at. Be careful and do your homework! Some schools can claim a better TRAINING record than others though, OATS being a good example (I beleive).
I did my ATPL theory through PPSC who are sadly no longer. One school that I would recommend though is Bristol Groundschool, who have some top tutors and a great reputation amongst students hwo have studied there (residential or correspondence). I understand that Oxford is also very good.
For flight training, I went through SFT (sadly again- no longer around) and Professional Air Training (for the IR). I can honestly say that PAT gave me the best standard of training that I have ever received. Their flight instructors are very experienced and have the valuable ability to teach you a concept in various ways to make sure that you "get it". If I had my choice all over again, I would choose PAT. If you can spend the money- go there.
Which brings me to your second point- save money and do some training in South Africa: My experience was that nothing prepares you for flying in the UK more than flying in the UK. It is a VERY different place to fly. In 1998 when I was doing my research into getting my UK frozen ATPL, I considered the S.A. option. This led me to beleive that for SOME students, it became a false economy due to further training being required in the IR phase. You can TRAIN for the JAA IR in SA, but you can only fly the skills test for the IR in the UK. In every sense, there is a huge difference in IR flying between the UK and SA. My point overall is that although the JAA has approved some training in SA, in reality it may not be the cheapest way to go. Thus my decision to do the whole thing in the UK.
Hopefully this helps you- if I can be of any further help please let me know.
Best Regards,
Gearup.
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Gear Up,
What is the job situation in europe/uk at the moment. I was there at the end of last year and to say the least jobs seemed far and few between.
Have you been able to snag that illusive airline job over there yet????
How many hours do GA operators require (PA31 and up), are they looking for more experienced twin drivers at the moment (ie; 1500 total, 500 m/e). I have only looked at long/short haul airlines, and think it may be wiser working in GA till slots become avialable.
Has anyone have any thoughts on Multi flight??
Cheers
SnL
What is the job situation in europe/uk at the moment. I was there at the end of last year and to say the least jobs seemed far and few between.
Have you been able to snag that illusive airline job over there yet????
How many hours do GA operators require (PA31 and up), are they looking for more experienced twin drivers at the moment (ie; 1500 total, 500 m/e). I have only looked at long/short haul airlines, and think it may be wiser working in GA till slots become avialable.
Has anyone have any thoughts on Multi flight??
Cheers
SnL
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Gearupandorrf, excellent post, couldn't have said it better myself.
Straightnlevel, there's next to no GA here. So what would impress a regional operator in Oz means very little here.
Over here, (UK that is), turbine (especially jet) and airline experience is paramount. To be useful and attractive to an operator here you'll need some multi pilot airline ops. Flogging around in a chieftain generally won't mean much.There's a few operators that want high time twin pilots. Loganair will employ someone with 2000TT on their Islander operation in the Shetlands. (pay ~£30K). If that appeals go for it, if not, get some turbine time.
Yes, I know that if you have turbine time in Oz then you may as well stay.
I haven't heard any thing bad about Multiflight.
I have heard only good about Bristol Ground School and PAT.
It is picking up here but still pretty grim for low houred guys. You may want to note that paying for your type rating (ATR or 737) as part of getting a job is becoming the norm for the low cost airlines such as easyJet and Ryanair.
Straightnlevel, there's next to no GA here. So what would impress a regional operator in Oz means very little here.
Over here, (UK that is), turbine (especially jet) and airline experience is paramount. To be useful and attractive to an operator here you'll need some multi pilot airline ops. Flogging around in a chieftain generally won't mean much.There's a few operators that want high time twin pilots. Loganair will employ someone with 2000TT on their Islander operation in the Shetlands. (pay ~£30K). If that appeals go for it, if not, get some turbine time.
Yes, I know that if you have turbine time in Oz then you may as well stay.
I haven't heard any thing bad about Multiflight.
I have heard only good about Bristol Ground School and PAT.
It is picking up here but still pretty grim for low houred guys. You may want to note that paying for your type rating (ATR or 737) as part of getting a job is becoming the norm for the low cost airlines such as easyJet and Ryanair.
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The IR is on a as required basis now, well since Aug’02 for a holder of an ICAO ME/IR, however for the unaware some might try to tell you otherwise.
Professional Air Training in Bournemouth, 15hrs + test,
The CPL, try the USA, IFTA for eg, lot more cheaper than the UK;
ATPL subjects, Oxford did it for me. A great bunch;
All time is usefull time, especially twin. Currency = performance.
Good luck.
I'll try to find a list of GA operators and email it to you.
Professional Air Training in Bournemouth, 15hrs + test,
The CPL, try the USA, IFTA for eg, lot more cheaper than the UK;
ATPL subjects, Oxford did it for me. A great bunch;
All time is usefull time, especially twin. Currency = performance.
Good luck.
I'll try to find a list of GA operators and email it to you.
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When I was looking for a job here in the UK about 2 years ago, the GA Operators (what few there are) required at least 700 hours total time to fly their Chieftains etc due to the insurance stipulations. To get an airline job you only require minimum hours out of flight school with a Frozen ATPL. GA is difficult to get into here in my opinion coupled with the fact that it hardly even exists!
With respect to jobs, there is movement at the moment due to the likes of easyJet. I'm not saying that you will get straight in with them but alot of pilots from my company have recently left for easyJet which opens up the employment situation in the TurboProp market. We have just put on 3 new people (in our fleet, we have 2 aircraft types) due to the shortfall in F/O's and Captains. (In all, about 15+ pilots have left us in the last 3 months).
Gearup paints pretty much the picture and route you need to take to get your JAR Licence. Do the Medical, then the Theory subjects before thinking about getting into an aircraft.
With respect to jobs, there is movement at the moment due to the likes of easyJet. I'm not saying that you will get straight in with them but alot of pilots from my company have recently left for easyJet which opens up the employment situation in the TurboProp market. We have just put on 3 new people (in our fleet, we have 2 aircraft types) due to the shortfall in F/O's and Captains. (In all, about 15+ pilots have left us in the last 3 months).
Gearup paints pretty much the picture and route you need to take to get your JAR Licence. Do the Medical, then the Theory subjects before thinking about getting into an aircraft.
