Howz Cougar Doing??
 

Any input from you Cougar guys? Saw all three of yer bombers parked up at Stansted the other week.......have you got much work? Hope the Super can find a hole to fill.

I know if anyone can make it work then Keith Newnham can as he can sure stand up to the bureaucrats and red tape artists.

Personally I think the Super Twentyseven makes far better economic sense especially in the cargo game than those plastic 757s. Go on Keith ......make it work.........go and buy a load more.......there has never been a better time to pick up a low time well maintained machine from one of the big US boys.
Stuff the European airport noise winge......Stage three is the rules at the moment so lets operate within them until stage 4 comes out.

And all you 757 fans out there.......well its an awful lot more dosh and outlay for a plane that only carries two more bins......stick with the queen of the skies and she wont let yer down!

Cougar
 

Yeah very true coopervane, great machines.


Over to you the Quiet Cats ;) :p :p

What's needed now is work for the pax a/c for the winter otherwise I can see a hole appearing in the side....... I hear though that Mr N is looking at converting it to VIP config, fitting aux tanks and offering it out in the biz jet market. Diverse idea, it may or may not work..... time will tell. Good move though to not get the 757.
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/felix3.gif

Does the super 727 meet the requirements of stage 3.

Maybe if the rumour mentioned in

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=55830[/URL]

has some truth it could be a blocker for this type of company

Rumour has it that Newnham is laying off crews from the Super 727. The whole thing sounded a bit shoddy from the word go, and it looks as though they are going to take advantage of the current market situation and lay off crews until more work comes up.
Maybe DHL Air or ACL would be interested in you guys with your experience of the night freight business. Good luck.

Hi loadshifta ,
Unfortunately you're right.......good guys have just been layed off this week !
got us worry......to say the least !!!
Our internal management crisis is not yet sorted and I' m affraid our front-line soldiers will pay the price.....as usual, whilst "generals" set up battle plan with the "beancounters" deep in confort of their smoky room ..... aviation is full of "Stalingrad" battle field !!!
with my hard hat ....on my way to the front line.

Cheers.:confused:

loadshifta and 3000psi - If you knew the FULL and ACCURATE reasons behind the recent layoffs, then I think support for a company like this would return. You mention FRONT LINE SOLDIERS, well maybe have a deeper think and put 2 and 2 together to get your layoffs answer.

There is a market for a company such as Cougar, it has the potential, but while your so called Front Line Soldiers are battling against the General, then hope will soon dissappear.:rolleyes:

Discontent in the cockpit is one thing, look a bit closer to home to ACTUALLY see where discontent is.

The whole thing is part of the devide and rule tactics played by the current ops director.People on different pay deals and conditions , sack a few people here and there keeps the staff worried for their jobs.Not a good state of affairs really!

Sad to hear that not all is right at Cougar but are the layoffs a political or financial requirements. Maybe CC can provide the answers.

Hope it all comes good

:confused:

My guess is that the current moves are for political AND financial reasons. However, it could be that someone can't add up when it comes to how many crews are ACTUALLY required to fly a line.

Time really to get down to the actual running of the airline and NOT worry about personal implications. Too many airlines arrive, survive and fail...... I don't think Cougar will be one to fail unless it's workforce start to work for Mr N and not against him.... mere unbiased opinions of course......
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/felix3.gif

Best of luck to you guys at Cougar. I hope you all make it work.

I used to be in the employ of an airline here in the US that leased G-OPMN and G-BNNI for a while. Nice machines, just needed to be flown a lot.

Any chance any of you guys would have that B727 technical website that one of your very own FE's designed? One of you're Capt's sent it to me, but lost everything in a hard drive crash a while back...

Again, best wishes to all you Cat people..

No TNT flying?? Well that is NOT the case at the moment. As for pay cuts, who knows ??

There's a growing number of people in LGG that are less than impressed by the Cougar operation.

Clarence - What, less impressed than any of the other operators flying for them??? The 727 is an ideal machine for their needs and unless you are very deep within the management structure of TNT, I'd say you were wrong.

I am not talking about the machine. Although it appears to be only marginaly stage 3, hence those straight ahead departure requests instead of the normal turn at 4.3d.

OK Clarence, you obviously have some sort of grudge against Cougar and the way it operates or just Cougar in general. How about spilling your beans and telling everyone what Cougar is doing that other TNT operators are not.

As for the Super27 being stage 3, it is fully stage 3 and yes there are some improvements to be made in terms of noise, which as far as I am aware, are being worked on by the necessary people.

Just a small query if it is stage 3 compliance why does it need improvement and if improved what does this entail.

In response to CO comment does the aircraft have problems
maintaining noise retrictions?

Well I hope that alls well in Cougar, got a good few friends there. About the climbing ahead thing, its probably because the aircraft aint approved for Rnav departures like our own 727s so we go straight ahead on vectors.

Anyway anything I know is staying with me. Nice company.

A cat-loving friend tells me that they never do derate take-offs and go at full chat all the time.

I know less than nothing about a Super 27 but if this is true then this practice does nothing for their "quiet" image.

Could be why they request straight ahead to 7000'.
Or is it higher?. Nothing to do with RNAV departures since there are none in LGG.

Dunno? ive never been to Liege so wasnt sure if Rnav Dept, just thought that was the reason for straight ahead. Maybe the boys of Cat-Club might know?

JW411a

Could you expand on the reason why doing a derated take-off would benefit a quieter departure

Engineer:

I have already clearly stated that I know less than nothing about Super 27s. It may well be that you need full chat to get the thing off the ground for all I know.

All I know is that we always derate when it is at all possible (which it is 99% of the time) and it causes a hell of a lot less noise for the attenuators near to the runway to pick up.

Actually, a lot of noise violations are caused by some really p*ss-poor tracking by the crew after take-off and I have witnessed some amazing performances over the last 40-odd years.

PS. Please note that the callsign is JW411 and not JW411a.

JW411

Got it right this time. The question was not type specific more in general. Thanks any way:)

Engineer:

My apologies; I thought you were asking a type-specific question and not a general one. Without getting myself into a nit-picking discussion about the finer points of Performance "A", perhaps I could give you a rather basic explanation of "derate" or "reduced thrust" take-offs?

It is often the case that an aircraft is not being operated to its absolute limit. For example, if the runway is much longer than that actually required or the load means that the aircraft is below its optimum weight for a given runway then a derate take-off is possible and allowed.

There are of course many other considerations such as obstacles and terrain considerations after take-off to be considered. We pilots consult performance tables called RTOGs (Regulated Take Off Graphs) and they will tell us for any given set of conditions exactly how much we can safely derate by.

From the noise point of view this is obviously desirable. A 10% reduction in take-off power would probably result in more than a 10% reduction in noise (but I'm only guessing).

On the debit side, the take-off run will obviously be longer and the aircraft will not climb quite so quickly. However, it is doing all of this whilst making a hell of a lot less noise! When it comes to the positioning of that particular airport's noise attenuators, it might not be quite so easy to make a choice.

For example, is it better to upset the people in the car park of Birchanger Services on the M11 or the entire populace of Bishops Stortford?

The other huge advantage of doing derate take-offs is that they are so much kinder on your engines. We should always be kind to them for you never know when you are really going to need them. Quite clearly, if you derated on every take-off versus going at full power on every take-off, it would not take rocket science to work out which engine is going to last the longest.

In fact, some engine manufacturers give credit for derate take-offs. When I flew DC-10s every single derate was faithfully entered in the tech log (even if it was just 1%) and due credit was given by GE.

I hope this is of use.

I think I must suffer from blackouts as I can not remember ever doing anything than a std dep from LGG , yes we do do the turn at 4.3 miles as per sid. You are correct though we do not do reduced pwr t/o,s it has been found that this is the most effective way of keeping the noise down on our a/c.The a/c does meet full stage 3 but as you should know with a lot of stage 3 a/c it does not mean you can just blast off willy nilly and not ring the bells, you have to carry out a proceedure ,change of flap setting and cutback of pwr ot 1000aal. you must also be good at your sid tracking . So these are the areas where you can get improvement from.

Hi Coach Driver !!!!
I couldn't agree more,,,,,those are the areas where we can get easy improvement.......stick to the SOP. :p

Cougar Leasing are planning to operate a 50 seat VIP passenger aircraft from April 2003 using a refurbished Super 27 B727/200 aircraft.

The plan is to remove the aircraft from service at the end of October 2002 and to give it a complete overhaul both inside and outside.

During the overhaul the interior will have a transformation by having 50 business class seats fitted each with facilities for the use of personal laptop computers, and individual DVD players will be available with a good selection of DVDs available from the onboard library. The will be a lounge with settees and tables plus a bar area, changing rooms each fitted with hand basins, and luxury toilets. Long-range fuel tanks will be installed
allowing the aircraft to operate non-stop across the Atlantic.

Outside there will be a new livery giving the whole aircraft the look of luxury.

New Livery are they mad..... the design of those super 727`s are selling the product for them they are the most eye catching aircraft in Europe at the moment probably the world.

Cat-club what are they going to put on the tail when the 737 arrives.

Personally, I think the cat face would look better spread right across the tail and nbr 2 intake and the title "cougar along the forward fuselage but under the window line. As for another type - Mmmmmm who knows ?? :p

Hi Paddy ,

What about "Pink Panther " ?!?!:p

Zee Inspecteuuuur Clouzeauuuuuu .

Puuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
 

Well seems u guys are hanging in there....as for the livery.....well seems fine to me unless you fancy a big meeeowwwwwww down the side. Heard some of you guys might be loaned out to ACL for a spell....any chance you could bring one of them hot ships with you...ours are like de tuned reliant robins.

So can you dispell the TNT contract rumour......I have heard TNT,s own 727,s have finished so they are either trucking the stuff or you guys are on overtime!

As for 737,s well got one too few engines and they are as common as muck....stick with the queen of the skies and dont go down that boring low cost operator route. Its a breath of fresh air to see someone doing it different and long may it continue. I bet you could keep your planes full with eager spotters just wanting to experience the thrill of a 0.88 cruise
and a speed brake like someone,s cut the wings off!

Talk Mr Newnham into doing a few airshow flypasts....it works for Atlantic and reminds the public of what a slick looking aircraft Mr Boeing used to make.

One last queery.....has November India been cut been up yet? Lady Patricia was a fine ship and deserves a better end.....how about turning her into a restraunt at Stansted!!

November Delta is featured in this months Airliners Mag in an Arkia Leasing article resplendent in the Sabre Livery.

Well good luck all you Cat Club members and keep yer chin up!

Lady Patricia
 

Where would the lovely Lady P be these days?

She is/was machine.. I spent many a day riding her around the states when she was on short-term lease to my former employer.. She never let me down after our hanger crew worked her bugs out.. She just needed a can of 2380 from time to time.

As a matter of fact, I recall sharing a "moment" with one of our trolly dollys late one night in the aft lav on that fine aeromachine.. Nothing like a lil lovin at FL330.

Good ole G-BNNI

Ahhh, the memories..

Stage 3??????

I think that you might find that the cumulative delta noise difference between the hushkitted B727 certified limit and the Stage 3 limits is less than 1 dBa. There is also a certain logic to climbing a noisy aircraft on full power and the highest climb rate, it makes sense that an aircraft this noisy is doing so.

Mutt. :):)

Mutt

Can you explain and corroborate the fact that the aircraft cannot meet the certification. Looking at the fact that the aircraft must have satisified regulatory requirements.

Engineer

I didn’t say that the aircraft cannot meet the certification. What I said was that the aircraft was within 1dBA of the certification limit based on the cumulative totals for takeoff, lateral and approach noise levels.

For comparison, a B747-100 is 3 dBA quieter than a hushkitted 727-100.

My data comes from having to establish with the DGAC a list of aircraft that we were permitted to operate into CDG at night. Neither of the two above are permitted regardless of the stage-3 certification.

If you want to show that your aircraft is different, give me the certified noise levels from the AFM.

Cheers

mutt

Mutt

Point taken but it is my impression that the 727 operated is a 200series with 2 -217 and a -17A engine in the centre. Correct me if I am wrong. In this respect one would imagine that the aircraft noise certification would be better than that of a 74 100.

Looking for a good web site that can specify stage 3 requirement if any one knows one

G-BNNI Lady Patricia
 

Continuous Ignition

Lady Patricia is in London Southend in a very stripped state. Having over 1000 hours in her since I flew her in Dan Air and Sabre, I've seen her look much better.

You also wanted the web address of the unofficial boeing 727 web site.

http://www.boeing-727.com/

Coopervane[U]

What a novel idea turning the old girl into a restaurant! It is a shame that the BAA at Stansted charge so much for parking. I think by the time one has covered the overheads of parking catering and security the head price per meal would be circa £500.00 per head without the wine or stealing the crockery and cuttlery.

Lady Patricia
 

Well if those meanies at Stansted cant accomodate Lady Paticia as a Cafe the there is always room in my back garden......Maybe those inspection dudes at Heaveylift can look again at the old girl and get her put back together...I have seen a lot worse 727,s flying around and a lot older too. Come on ....reverse the trend ....spend a few bob and get her flying again.........always was an aviation romantic rather than a bean counter.
I mean .......all you inovators at Cougar......and i am sure she would make a great SUPER....regards

Lady Patricia
 

It would take a magician to restore her to any semblance of her former glory especially "for a few bob" I've seen vultures leave more on a carcass after they have finished.
I personally am open minded about miracles, but on this occasion I would be inclined to recommend that you pay a visit to her at Southend and pay your last respects! I believe that she has even received her last rites! I will always try to remember her in either of her resplendent liveries (Dan-Air, Sun Country, or Sabre) cruising up where she belongs in excess of M .81

This is not to say that if enough individuals felt sorry enough for her that she could not be restored (at huge expense) for the sake of nostalgia. She would make a lovely corporate aircraft if someone wanted to give her a good home. Any takers? :D