Ironbutt57,

what do you mean, by "remember those guys who made it all possible" ?? I remember, that in 1998 Cargolux Pilots did NOT go to the barricades, when Atlas Air (Mainline) was contracted with their first 747-400F (and more followed) to fly Cargolux Routes, blocking potential job-growth at Cargolux while helping to kickstart Atlas' major business in the years to come, especially between US and Europe. At that time, no Atlas Air Mainline Pilot was concerned about taking jobs away from European Pilots, were they?

One should keep things in perspective. Then, it was a business-decision by the European Carrier Cargolux, to flag out some European jobs to the US. Today, it is yet another business decision, this time by Atlas' management to flag out some jobs back to European bases. That is, what business is about. And for us pilots it means "you get a little, you give a little".

Make no mistake, I feel for the Atlas Mainline Pilots and I got to know quite a few of them over the years. Most of them are hard working and pleasant people and they deserve their share, but there are also others who are doing a great job elsewhere.

Cheers

Mainline Atlas pilots have and are still stealing jobs from:

English, Dutch, French, german, Chinese, Malay, Korean, Belgium pilots, south Americans...... ...it's time for a change!!!!!!
:mad:

So what if other companies are going to follow their foot steps.....good luck to them!!!!

Also who cares about the stupid "ban" if any, all of us don't or can't work in the States anyway.........
:D

Mainline guys, you'd better start sending resume!!!!!!

74 World...

That's pretty harsh, however true it may be...

Atlas pilots!

Sink the ship, until they give you a fair contract. If they don't, they don't deserve to exist.

You will win!!!!

On a slightly lighter note, learned today that Southern Air is looking for 4 more aeroplanes....seems business may just pick up... at Atlas' expense perhaps?

411A
Those could be some of the planes Atlas is supposed to take delivery of later this year. Atlas is actively trying to get other carriers to take up those leases as they can't use them.

I don't have any bone to pick with the Atlas pilots, but I'm afraid the handwriting is on the wall:

Strike and your job will most likely be history.

Unlike the Comair strike, Atlas seems to have plenty of "back-up" through various means to support the basic operation in the event of a strike.

My thought of the day for Atlas mainline is this:

Do you guys notice how many people on this forum are encouraging you to walk off your job for the "good of all of us'?

ALPA has never (with the exception of one of their recent former Presidents [RB]) provided priority hiring or even interviews to the majority of the striking pilots.

Don't believe me, just look up some of the old EAL or PAA guys.

Don't be fooled...Polar will fly your cargo in their aircraft, as will the new Southern, NWA Cargo, Kalitta, Gemeni and many others.

Good luck and be careful...the grass is not so green out here...

747400CA

I can answer some of those questions

--Did not the STN-based pilots each have an individual employment contracts not with Atlas but with the wholly-owned subsidiary company?

True but they are flying ATLAS aircraft and Atlas generated freight as AACS has no aircraft, contracts, or even sales department of it's own.

- With no union representation at the STN base and no provisions in their individual contracts to withhold their services in support of their 'mainline' cousins, would not the STN pilots who did support the strike likely forfeit their jobs with no hope of going back to work?

Also most likey true. However, they were all told numerous times that this was likely to happen. Now that they have put themselves in this situation they must make the decision.


- Would the 'mainline' pilots protect those AACS pilots who stayed out in sympathy by refraining from a 'back to work' agreement ending the strike until the AACS jobs were restored (as the UAL pilots did for the '570' pre-hires in the mid-eighties)?

Of course.


I further asked if their was sufficient excess capacity at Polar to generate a revenue stream that would see the company through an extended strike, to which the group responded "the Polar guys won't screw us".

Polar guys won't screw us if they know they are flying Atlas generated freight or using an Atlas call sign. In any case there is not currently sufficient capacity at Polar to take all of Atlas flights.

I then went on to ask "what if Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings [the parent corporation to Polar, Atlas, and AACS] sells, and they (sympathetic Polar pilots), are assigned 'extra section' flights under their own call sign - in other words, not 'struck work')"?

This is something that Atlas will try to do and is taken right out of the Lorenzo Playbook. There will be no recriminations from mainline pilots if the Polar guys are hoodwinked into this.....volunteering to work days off to do so, however, is another matter.

Would not Polar pilots who withhold their services from their own company in sympathy to the Atlas pilots

(a) be conducting an illegal job action since they have not been released by the National Mediation Board to pursue self help?


(b) expose ALPA to potential legal action and penalty in the same fashion as the AA pilots after their illegal 'sickout' some years ago?


(c) expose Polar pilots individually to potential discipline or termination in similar fashion to AACS pilots who withheld their services?

No their contract should have a clause that will protect them individually and ALPA if they should decide not to cross any picket line, or fly freight that is obviously struck work.

RESEARCH ALERT-JP Morgan cuts Atlas Air to 'market underperform'
June 17, 2002 12:00:00 PM ET


NEW YORK, June 17 (Reuters) - J.P. Morgan said it cut its investment rating on Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings Inc. (CGO) to "market underperform'' from "market perform'' based on poor earnings and contract visibility and uncertainty over discussions with its pilots.

Analysts Gregory Burns and Brannon Cook said they expect excess airfreight capacity to prevent Atlas Air from fully participating in a recovery of freight volumes.

They increased their 2002 loss forecast to $13.5 million from $1.8 million and now expect a second-quarter loss of 23 cents a share. They said they reduced their earnings estimates to a per-share loss of 35 cents in 2002, down from a previous estimate of a 5-cent loss, and a profit of 35 cents in 2003, down from a previous outlook for 50 cents.

They estimated Atlas Air's cash burn at $14.1 million by year-end. In early trade, the stock was off $2.05 or 33.88 percent to $4.00 per share. REUTERS

© 2002 Reuters

First, just some naiive impressions of the freight industry. A few years ago while going through Memphis, I noticed that Fred Smith actually had either Polar or Gemini 747s etc parked on his ramp. This was a first for me to see in a sea of mostly purple paint, and it was a very graphic tactic against his pilots, with some aircraft paint jobs that stood out in stark contrast to the purple tails! This was during protracted contract negotiations. He claimed that he was ready to shift all of their flying to other carriers, permanently. If he was serious, I would hate to think of the possible ruthlessness which smaller companies might be capable of, especially those which have not made such an effort (in general) to build good morale.

That was a complex situationat FEDEX, with a very fragmented pilot group. Years before, during the first attempt to organize, most seemed to feel that they were "cockpit white-collar middle mgmt" instead of "cockpit/blue collar labor". No pun intended about the light blue uniform shirts. Of course, having originally tried to staple the Flying Tiger pilot group (727s, DC-8s, 747s) at the bottom of the FEDEX pilot list, this said a lot in itself, "Flightcrew Handbook" language or not. "But Fred promised us..."

As it turned out, Fred Smith, despite having indicated to the media (at least my impression) that his pilots would or should have a competitive contract, this is not what Fred ultimately agreed to-UPS has a much better contract, from what FEDEX pilots told me. Maybe the UPS contract was settled after that first FEDEX pilot contract.

I hope you guys at Atlas end up with a very competitive contract, but for the sakes of your careers, be very careful. From what I've read over the last few years, cargo appears to more transferrable than any passenger flying.

I would hate to see you guys starting over again working for a certain charter cargo airline in Michigan...

Let's hope your leadership avoids the trap of underestimating the enemy or the terrain. US airline history has constantly shown that under a GOP Executive branch, labor has few or no powerful sympathizers in Wash. DC. The Southern Airways strike in the early 60s survived only because Kennedy was in the White House.

Would appear that a strike is just what the company wants...careful guys and gals, :confused: :eek:

Negotiations to start again on Monday
 

Atlas has agreed to resume negotiations on Monday with ALPA and the NMB overseeing it. We'll see if they have something better than their Last Best Offer(LBO).

Whale Driver

That's good news but I have a question. If negotiations resume is the clock reset on the cooling off period or will the clock keep ticking toward June 28th? Good luck to Atlas pilots!:)

747400CA
I think any LSO worth is weight in salt would have rated your post as:
"Long in the grove, high come down, settle in the middle, ease gun to land, !!!! falling off A TALL MOOSE, taxi one wire, NO GRADE"

:cool: :confused: :rolleyes: :eek: :mad:

Clock not reset
 

No, the fact that they are talking does not reset the clock. They are still under the threat of a strike deadline.

Seems that the crewmembers are under the impression that AAMT is going back to the table to negotiate in good faith.

Did it occur to you that since the stock crashed that they are going to come to you with an offer that is less that their last best?

I’ll be back Tuesday to say I told you so.

Box_mover

Judging by the percentage of the pilots that rejected the first offer, a lower offer would only strengthen their resolve to go out on strike. If management uses the price of the stock for leverage to propose a lower offer they'll be commiting a major blunder- and the stock will only go lower. I'll bet the offer is better, and a settlement is near. I'll be back Monday to say I told YOU so.;)

The tactics you are seeing is right out of the union buster handbook.

Crying poor is the last step right before the strike deadline.

Notice the timing of the financial "update" that the company will lose MORE than they thought for the year.

I am wondering how management will avoid being investigated for stock manipulation and cooking the books. After all, Arthur Anderson was their auditor until just a little while ago.

I stand by my claim. I agree with ironbutt57, the company WANTS a strike for some reason. Seems logical that getting rid of Atlas Air Inc. would be good for Atlas Air World Wide Holdings.

Its just a shell game.

Fight Smart
 

For DownIn3Green and Ignition Override

In different ways, and from different perspectives, you have communicated the 'big picture' of the potential threats facing the Atlas pilots.

With excess capacity capacity out there, undefined support from Polar and other pilot groups, and a political landscape tilted decidedly against them, the outlook is indeed not good.

Absent an improvement in these areas, I certainly share your fears for the Atlas group.

For Beaver Driver:

First - thank you for the thoughtful and rational response.

May I be so bold as to suggest that - if you are not already working as an ALPA volunteer - you might consider lending your skills and leadership in some capacity?

If I were a line guy at a pre-strike teleconference I would be inclined to listen well to a voice like yours.

Upon reflection, a couple of thoughts and questions in reply to your message:

- In the matter of garnering AACS support for your impending job action:

Has your ALPA leadership considered making policy to support pilot of a non-ALPA group (AACS) who honor your picket line?

If I recall correctly, the UAL 'pre-hires' in 1985 were afforded strike benefits (even before they were on the property) in addition to the promise that there would be no back to work agreement that did not protect their jobs.

Moreover, I seem to remember that the UAL pilots 'stayed out' long after the economic issues had been settled over the issue of protecting the 'pre-hires' jobs and seniority - with the eventual outcome of jobs protected and seniority (vis a vis new hire 'scabs' who did cross the line) to be determined by an arbitrator after a month-long strike.

Previous invective between the groups notwithstanding, I would venture the notion that a similar credible commitment from both the 'mainline' rank and file and the ALPA local and national leaders would go a long way to gaining AACS support for your cause.

- In the matter of 'struck work':

In past job actions in the U.S., passenger airline pilot groups have been steadfast in informing their management teams that they will not fly 'extra sections' over a competitor's routes to accommodate 'struck work'.

In this case, however, many of the routes flown by Atlas customer airlines overlap those flown by Polar and other freight providers.

Moreover, it will likely be difficult to discern

(a) those pallets in the warehouses in HKG / TPE / ICN / wherever which contain freight from longstanding Polar forwarders, and

(b) those pallets which contain freight from forwarders which might otherwise have used an Atlas aircraft (wet-leased to a customer airline) for their shipping needs.

I applaud your sensible reply re: pilots meeting their obligations (and no more - i.e., no overtime) as airline managers at Polar (and elsewhere) may be inclined to take hostages (Cathay Pacific last year, for example) wherever they can find them.

A word of caution, however, about real or perceived job protections in the matter of honoring picket lines and flying 'struck work'.

While it's been quite a while since I looked at an ALPA contract (or worked in the states, for that matter) I can never recall seeing any language which protected the job of a line pilot who who refused to fly an assigned trip - struck work or otherwise.

There is, of course, language in every contract for a grievance process to deal with management's termination of pilots for alleged 'misconduct' when they do refuse to fly.

May I suggest a request to your ALPA leadership for

- clear guidelines to the Polar pilots as well as other ALPA pilot groups (NWA) who will be called to carry freight diverted from Atlas aircraft?

- solicitation of expressions of support from non-ALPA pilot groups (World, GAC, Southern) and other IFALPA pilot groups (Cathay Pacific, KAL, Lufthansa, et al) who will inevitably be called to fly "Atlas" [customer] freight?

- an assessment from the ALPA economic analysis department of the excess capacity in Atlas customer markets, the projected Atlas cash 'burn rate' during a strike, and the possibility that Atlas management might acquire yet another airline certificate to try to 'fly through' your impending strike?

- In the matter of the 'end game' negotiations coming up next week:

It seems to me that if your ALPA leadership can

(a) enhance the credibility of your impending job action threat as well as

(b) define the consequential economic damage to an apparently skeptical Atlas management team

your negotiating position going into the talks scheduled for the 24th will be vastly improved - and may prove decisive in reaching an agreement that is good for both you and your company.

- Lastly - good luck to you and all your fellow Atlas pilots.

For fightson

I applaud your aggressive orientation but respectfully suggest you might consider channeling your energies in more productive ways in the days ahead.

Instead of throwing invective, moose turds (?), etc at some guy on a bulletin board, you might consider working the "Family Awareness' phone tree, volunteering for work in your strike center, or some other productive outlet for your - quite understandable - anger and frustration.

If one continues the analogy contained in your 'handle' , seems to me that the Atlas pilots are headed for for multiple "4 v unknown" engagements deep in enemy territory with uncertain tanker assets and yet-undefined support from allied air forces - this in a war that could last a period of days, weeks, or months.

Conveying a credible threat to the 'enemy' of your individual and collective ability to fight effectively over the long haul will likely be more productive than yelling "fight's on" and trying to kill the bogey in front of you in the first turn of the first engagement.

Lastly - no hard feelings, avoid the yellow snow, and good luck to you as well.

Thanks to all.

I feel left out.

Visit the pub down the street...plenty of company there.

Atlas Cargo
 

One of the reasons that Atlas has had a drop in business is that it is continually undermining its ACMI customers by contacting the cargo interest who are contracted to its ACMI customer and offering them 'better rates' than those offered by the ACMI operator. Atlas, in Europe and Africa, doesn't know if it is an airline or an ACMI supplier. It offers deals to cargo customers on behalf of its captive partners (TNT, Emirates, etc.) and files fifth freedom applications on the routes operated on AOCs by its ACMI customers. With this kind of sabotage, Atlas is not everyone;'s first choice for ACMI or voyage charter.

So, if you are wondering why business is bad you should know that the same management types that are screwing the pilots are also screwing their customers.This is not likely to improve.

The other side of the equation is that prospective customers are not inclined to book their cargo, especially perishables, with a carrier whose pilots might soon be on vacation. Just as passengers would be reluctant to buy tickets on a pax carrier under like circumstances. Besides, Atlas stock (CGO), down at $3.45/share, is close to "junk" status on Wall Street.
:(

Just how low does the stock have to go before they are in the zone for a takeover?

I doubt Mrs Chowdry would sell at such a loss...

Hints of a buyout would raise the stock price substantially!

From today's NY Times:

To the Editor:

"The Impossible Demands on America's Airlines" (Week in Review, June 16) leads to an inescapable conclusion: The American airline industry must undergo structural reforms to continue playing a vital role in our economy. To continue the low fares and ubiquitous service that customers demand, airline labor costs, which can reach 40 percent of operating expenses, must be realigned.

The major obstacle to this is the Railway Labor Act of 1926, which saddles labor and management with cumbersome dispute-resolution procedures that provide no practical mechanism for reducing labor costs. Even in the best of times, the act leads to acrimonious negotiations, including threatened strikes and strikes.

For airlines to stop limping from crisis to crisis, and for the public to be well served, part of the solution must include reform of the arcane Railway Labor Act.
NEIL GOLDSCHMIDT
Washington, June 20, 2002
The writer was secretary of transportation, 1979-80.

Rick Schuyler was offered and accepted a 40% raise at the shareholders meeting that was picketed by his pilots two weeks ago. Yet he continues to cry "poor mouth", refuses to look for any new business, and refuse to give his pilots any kind of pay raise. I agree with GTI 001 I can't wait to shut this company down.

For those requesting an example of pay, a 3 year -400 F/O makes just under 43,000 USD a year, while working (away from home) as many as 340 hours per month (the average worker in the US is away from home for work about 160 hours per month).

Rick Schuyler made $440,000 USD last year plus 5.2 million in "other compensation" and 5.2 million in stock options. (source is YAHOO financial) All this while the stock nosedived from around 45.00 USD per share to less than 4.00 USD per share at the close of the market Friday. Why is he still employed at Atlas?

None of the pilots want to see this company close. However, we have not recieved a pay raise in the 9 years of this companies existance, the work rule are **** poor and the retirement is non-existant. All the while, the robber barrons that run the place are reaping the rewards of our labor. Are we pissed off ? YOU BET are we willing to strike ? YOU BET Do we care if the company sinks? not as long as Schuyler and the rest of his Lorenzo clones are at the helm

Beaver Driver, when you and your colleagues interviewed for employment with Atlas, were you not aware that none of Atlas Air's contracts were with US airlines, and that they operate long haul international flights?

If so, you don't have a leg to stand on with the points made in your post. If not, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that's just come onto the market ... ;)

Schuyler's stock options are worthless with stock at the present level. He only makes money if it increases in value - not decreases! :rolleyes:

I can't understand why, if you are as unhappy as you claim, you don't simply quit? If you reckon you can do better, why not form Beaver Air?

C M Burn
 

Mr Burns;

Guess you have no idea what stock dilution and management accountablity is!

Mr C.M. Burn,, Under This CEO.....
 

Atlas Air under the leadership of Ricky Shuyler, Atlas Air has gone from $28.00 to $3.00usd per share, a loss of some 800% and $925,000,000.00usd of shareholder equity value with current float of 37M.

Perhaps he should choose a different profession.

Intruder
 

Ricky and gang have substantial "Golden Parachutes" in place to make such effort "very costly" to host.

The parachutes were put in place under the guise of preventing the pillage of Atlas Air.

Perf Init, you need to brush up on your maths. A loss of 800% of value would be $224 per share. What you really mean is that they lost 89% of their value. Heaven help you if you were my FO doing the W/B and you came out with something like that!!

In large part, the drop in value of the shares are attributable to:

- Death of Mike Choudhry
- 9/11
- Parking aircraft, due to 9/11
- Loss of contracts, due to 9/11
- Inability to utilise the aircraft due for delivery, due to 9/11
- B744 too big for most markets, due to global recession
- Strike threats by crews.

Unless you're claiming that Ricky is really OBL, then the events of 9/11 are completely outside his control, as is the recession.

All that you guys are going to achieve is a whole load of GSS-type offshoots around the world, and no US crews operating them. People have been telling you this on here and elsewhere for years and you've been ignoring it.

Tough.

Burning math
 

So what do you calll a price change from $3.00 to $28.00 ????????????? An 80% gain.......not quite !!!! Better stick to your nickel and dime.

You don't care if the company sinks.....well that's a bit extreme no?...sure your leaders are a bit unconvincing, but sinking the whole lot is not going to hurt them as much as it will hurt you...for sure...anyway good luck, and let's hope for an 11th hour reprieve here....:eek: :confused: :( :(

Perf Init - if you're talking about the value of the shares increasing from $3 to $28 - then that's a 933.33% increase. But we aren't talking about increases in value, are we?

I don't suppose you had anything to do with the fueling of a certain Air Canada 767, did you? ;) :D

747400CA, a frighteningly coherent grasp of the issues at stake here, my compliments Sir. Are you available for consultation?

Just hearing from Atlas Air pilots that the strike will indeed occur starting 28 June. Any info from Atlas employees?:(

I will say I told you so right now.

You WILL be replaced. Replaced by hungry, 747 wanna bees. Ta Ta Union and ALPO.

ITYS

And I hope you enjoy your job at the "new" Atlas. A company so wretched that it moved the pilots to this drastic action. I hope you enjoy it there because it will be the best you will ever do.

Must not think much of yourself or your skills, eh Box_Mover?

The rest of us think even less.

============================================================ ================
================
DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS
Lot has been said and written in the press concerning pilots' salaries and compensation. We have been told about how much it will cost our company, our job has been compared to others, and various subtle and not so subtle threats and intimidation tactics have been hurled at our group. In light of the current situation, please allow me, a pilot to give you a small glimpse into my world...

DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS
..How many boardrooms explode over Long Island Sound?
..How many meetings conclude with hundreds of dead bodies?
..How many trucks cost $82 million dollars?
..How many doctors spend half the month away from their families?
..Do the children of media representatives cry when Daddy puts on his uniform to go to work because they know he'll be gone for a week?
..How many salesmen lose their jobs because they have high blood pressure?
..How many lawyers spent Christmas alone in a crash pad?
..When your wife is watching TV an the program is interrupted by a news flash of an aircraft accident, does she momentarily freeze in fear for what she might hear?
There is not another profession in the world where the consequences for mistakes are so catastrophic and unforgiving.

THE PRICE
..I pay the price when somebody loads full oxygen containers in the cargo hold
..I pay the price when a terrorist has a bone to pick
..I pay the price when loaders forget to set the locks
..I pay the price when engineers design a fuel pump not quite correctly
..I pay the price when Mother Nature decides to shift the winds...

YOU SPEAK OF THE COST
..Ask the CEO of Value-Jet the cost of a DC-9 buried in the Everglades...The Cost..
..Ask Fred Smith the cost to scrape a DC-10 and MD-11 from the runways at Steward and Newark...The Cost
..Ask Korean Airlines the cost of a 747 that didn't quite make the runway at Guam... The Cost
..Ask Fine Air the cost to clean up a DC-8 off a Miami Street... The Cost
..Ask Bob Crandall the cost of a B-757 impacting a Columbian mountain...The Cost
..And if not for their Cool, Calm, Professionalism, what could have been the cost of a UPS B-727 that suddenly
went dark and silent four miles above Chicago? How much were they worth to you that night? Industry standard or 25 % below? ...... The Cost

WHEN YOU TRY TO INTIMIDATE ME, REMEMBER
..It was I who flew Cobra gunships in the jungles of Vietnam while you worked on your masters degree

..It was I who sits alone at the tip of an F-18 in the silent instant before I am catapulted over a cold, dark sea, while you slept peacefully in your bed

..It was I who, one night watched my wings grow heavy with ice, miles from the safety of the nearest airport praying that I had enough fuel to find clear skies, while you watched Monday night football

..It was I who flew a C-130 into Panamanian gunfire, while you decorated
your Christmas tree in 1989

..It was I who faced head-on the fourth largest army in the world over the
deserts of Iraq and brought it to its knees, while you watched it on CNN

..It was I who landed an A-6 on a floating piece of tarmac no bigger than
your backyard, while you mowed yours

..It was I who orbited in unarmed tankers over enemy territory to
replenish others sworn to protect you

..It was I who watched missiles and bullets blossom in my face, yet didn't
turn and run, while you watched the flowers in your garden blossom

..It was I who buried a friend

..It is I who knows a little boy who will never play catch with his Dad,
so that you may play with your grandchild

Sir, please don't try to intimidate me.

I am not your enemy, I am your asset, an asset that has experienced and accomplished things few others dare to try. Realize this and there a few obstacles we can't overcome.

Author Unknown