If your scenario is anywhere near correct ,I think most employees are fresh out of luck.
Up until last year it indeed used to be so that an employee with a substantial
amount of years of service with a Belgium based contract can get a lot of months of pay when the contract is prematurely terminated, even better with mass layoff scenario's.

But all that has changed dramatically last year, now I believe it is severely capped, the only way they would get such high payout is when they come to an agreement with UPS .

AMSTERDAM -(Dow Jones)- Dutch package shipper TNT Express NV (TNTE.AE) Tuesday denied a report about the potential loss of up to 20,000 jobs following the takeover by U.S.-based United Parcel Service Inc. (UPS).

"It's too early to comment about possible job losses," said Job van Harmelen, spokesman at TNT Express. He added the number of potential job losses mentioned in Dutch daily Het Financieele Dagblad makes no sense.

On Monday, UPS, the world's largest international package shipper by revenue ahead of FedEx Corp. (FDX), said it has agreed to buy smaller rival TNT Express in an all-cash deal valuing the Dutch package shipper at EUR5.16 billion ($6.80 billion).

According to the newspaper, Chief executive Marie-Christine Lombard said that while there are few concrete agreements about labor aspects, the loss of up to 20,000 jobs is possible. She added that part of the agreement is that potential lay-offs would be evenly spread between TNT and UPS. TNT has a total of 77,000 employees.

Paste these coordinates into your Google Maps browser to catch a glimpse of what LGG may look like in a few years: 39 54 28.1 n 84 13 53.7 w

This is the empty shell which remains from a once bustling international air network sort facility which handled +100 aircraft and millions of pounds of shipments every night. UPS purchased and absorbed the shipping company and dropped their subcontracted airlines (including the largest one which was wholly owned by the acquired shipping company) like a bag full of rusty hammers.

You are referring to Menlo. UPS purchased Menlo and it did not include an airline. You are confusing Menlo with Emery Worldwide. Emery Worldwide Airlines got it's FAA certificate revoked for numerous maintenance violations.

Emery changed it's name to Menlo and continued ops without a wholly owned airline and instead, relied solely on contractors for lift. UPS purchased Menlo and closed the DAY sort and built heavy freight sorts at it's own hubs around the system. It also cancelled the ACMI contracts with the Menlo contractors and transferred all the volume in house to UPS Airlines as required by the UPS/IPA contract. What's your point in all this? You expect the IPA to allow other operators to fly UPS volume on routes that UPS Airlines can legally fly?

The acquisition of Emery Worldwide by UPS did not include Emery Worldwide Airlines just as the acquisition of TNT Express NV by UPS will not include TNT Airways. You are confused if you believe that Emery and Menlo were different entities somehow (go to Emery Worldwide Freight Services - UPS Supply Chain Solutions). Emery Worldwide Airlines got it’s FAA operating certificate revoked because it made the acquisition simpler and enhanced value for both parties in the transaction (think Babbit’s DUI and the Cargo Carve-Out).

The relationship between Emery Worldwide Airlines to Menlo/Emery was no different than the relationship between UPS to UPS Airlines or TNT Express NV to TNT Airways. UPS doesn’t want or need TNT Airways and existing treaties and laws would prohibit the acquisition and outright foreign ownership of an EU airline. I expect the IPA and/or UPS to allow other operators to fly UPS volume as allowed by their agreement. My point is that eventually the TNT volume will be UPS volume in the UPS network and TNT Airways will probably either cease to exist (like Emery Worldwide Airlines) or look very different (like Challenge/Centurion) in a few years.

Whilst that may be considered gloating, I must say your quote is misleading.
N reg A/C simply can not fly "unhindered" around Europe. Cabotage is alive and well and the likes of UPS have up to 20 departures a night from CGN flown by Star Airlines because the EU rules wont allow the city pairs to be flown by Brown tails, or US pilots.
While UPS may own 100% of any European company, they may NOT own any more than 49% of any European airline, BIG difference.

This was proved quite blatantly by the Brits when Balpa balked at Atlas Air doing the flying for BA.

The result was 3 744's and all the job growth going from Atlas to AACS in STN just to cater to one customer. The A/C were put on the UK register preventing any US pilot from operating them. Upwards of 100 "commands" were shifted from the US to the UK, and they are still there in the guise of GSS, with the first three dash-8's that Atlas ordered going to GSS.
So this "unfairness" can go both ways.


I certainly do agree however, that the next few months will be interesting, and in the end, it really is a business decision, irregardless of which side of the Atlantic it comes from.

Someone's counting chickens before the eggs hatch!
 

I don't know BrowntailWhale, nor will I speak for him. I don't even know if he really IS a line UPS pilot or management. That said, as a 21 year plus UPS line Captain I can safely say he does not represent the typical UPS pilot's attitude towards our recent TNT acquisition announcement.

First of all, NO UPS pilot knows what the ramifications of this acquisition means for our flying or staffing. UPS has kept the pilots represented by the IPA (my union) totally in the dark. We took no active roll in these negotiations, and UPS really isn't interested in our opinions or desires. UPS only gave the IPA the minimum notice required by our contract once the purchase agreement was accepted.

Integrating the TNT system into the UPS system will undoubtably be an extremely complicated logistical, financial, and legal maze. The complexity associated with standing 3rd and 5th freedom rights, coupled with the depressed EC economic engine could lead to LESS UPS flying for all anyone knows (politically, how easy of a sell would it be for an EU politician to change the rules, eliminating intra-European N-number flying by IPA crews??)

The track record for pilots surviving a UPS acquisition is poor. Our purchase of Challenge Air Cargo was (from the line UPS pilots perspective) messy at best. We only bought the that company for their landing rights in South and Central America. The pilots were non-union, and their leased aircraft returned. UPS didn't even offer any of their pilots job interview preference. I was embarrassed.

This acquisition of TNT by UPS will affect many thousands of employees, families, sub-contractors, etc. Some may come out ahead, but a lot may not. Only time will tell. But UPS Corporate has determined this to be the best course to expand our branded service in not only Europe, but also Asia, South America, and India. It is the biggest piece of the worldwide logistics puzzle we've purchased, and hopefully will mean more jobs for more people as our international system becomes more interconnected.

For any pilot to brashly exclaim glee over possible expanded international flying at this point, is simply throwing out flame bait, an opinion based upon a vacuum of facts. If I had made such a statement in haste, I would whole-heartedly apologize to everyone on this forum. This type of attitude does not represent a line UPS/IPA pilot.

This completes my once per year posting on this forum…..

^ Well said.

^ I'd fly with that level headed American any day

The FACT is that the typical UPS/IPA pilot wants IPA crewmembers flying every route that they can get in browntail aircraft. If they say otherwise, they are either lying, trying to be PC and not offend TNT pilots or simply an idiot.

If you consider it "glee", then so be it. I'm excited at the probability of increased intra Europe flying for UPS/IPA crewmembers. I'm truly sorry that TNT Airways pilots will probably get hosed, but their own company was going to hose them anyway. But it's a dog eat dog world and I want UPS/IPA as the top dog.

Nieuwsblad Transport > TNT halveert intercontinentale vrachtvloot

Another UPS guy here.

Lots of talk about UPS buying TNT on the line and crew rooms, but none of us have a clue about what could/will happen. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we lose flying over this. I surely hope not, but hopefully everybody realizes that UPS doesn't tell us anything. They don't want our opinions either. Our union was notified a couple hours before it was made public.

Anybody coming on any of these anonymous boards claiming to be a UPS/IPA pilot and gloating about it is blowing smoke. Trust me! We have no idea and it could just as easily be bad for us too.

As mentioned before, I hope that this leads to more flying jobs for everybody and nobody gets the shaft.

Keep in mind that our relationship with our company is about as cozy as yours. They don't tell us anything, and all we have is our contract.

Good luck to all, and keep in mind that you never really know who is who on these boards. Nobody that I've chatted with over the last few days is gloating over here at UPS.

BrownWhaleTail,

Come over to the bar and grill and tell everybody you're speaking on behalf of IPA pilots on pprune.

You don't speak for me. Zip it.

Nobody's gloating, and you know it and I know it that UPS hasn't and won't tell us sh!t until the last minute.

Zip it ahole, unless you're man enough to come out on the B&G. You don't speak for me or any IPA pilots that I've talked to in the last few weeks concerning the TNT deal.

Hi girls and guys

Correct me if I´m wrong, but isn´t it, that UPS can´t buy TNT airways to 100% and keep their right to fly intereuropean (better said. 2 landings within one country).
As far as I know, they can only own 49%.

According to AirCargoNews DHL already went to the european antitrust watchdog.
UPS is confident to get the approval, but some predict that they have to sell some of their european assets (whatever that will be).

So long. Let´s hope it all works out to the best for TNT, UPS and the european partners (StarAir, Farnair, West Air and so on)

I don't think you'll find the aircraft were put on the UK register to "prevent any US pilot from operating them".

BAWC and Atlas got away with it for a while because there was no comparible equipment to use on the UK register. Then came AFX. Ok, a 747 Classic but close enough to the CAA (and BALPA!) Therefore, BAWC had a choice. Go with AFX or do something about it. Hence the birth of the "virtual airline" that is GSS. We all know it's a flag of convenience for BAWC and Atlas, However GSS is a UK AOC holder and therefore should be operated by GSS pilots, along with the BA secondees (that's another bone of contention)

Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it:rolleyes:

You are talking about Europe/Belgium/Netherlands. Welcome to our legislation. Your story would end with all letters with proposed bonusses being thrown away because everybody knows it's illegal. All redundancies would become illegal at that point as well.

Wouldn't it be ironic if all the intra-European flying was passed to TNT followed by a furlough at UPS:ouch: Unlikely but ironic!

Unless the current EU AOC was kept??

polax 52:

I am most grateful to you. In my retirement I have often wondered why I did not continue my flying career in the USA but decided to come back home.

It did not take long for you to start calling everyone that disagrees with you "scabs" before anything has even happened!

I have some wonderful American friends but you are already displaying an amazing amount of arrogance and ignorance which is unbecoming of your beloved country.

It was having to fly with pillocks such as you (who were greatly in the minority) that made me return to civilisation).

JW411,

Seconded. Maybe he and BrowntailWhale are best buddies:rolleyes:

@polax52:

I don't underestimate the UPS lawyers in any way. I reacted to the story you wrote where employees would "out of the blue" be faced with a letter to "sign or fear the result".

Depending on the number of redundancies, the "path to follow" is clearly written down. Belgium has had a number of these big closures in the past. Try google "law renault". Depending on the % of employees to be made redundant, the plans have to be announced well in advance, leading to social debates about how many, how, etc...

Polax52, in this wonderful European world of ours, are the cabotage flights that UPS are seeking legal?

What about taxation? Are USA based crews ready to pay European tax? Are you aware that present expat flight crew have to monitor the number of days they spend in Europe? Are your colleagues ready to pay?

My last FAA licence renewal (I.e. medical) cost me $50....... My last JAA renewal cost me $1500 including paying for proving that I could speak English, my native language.

So maybe it would be easier to create a company called UPS EUROPE, with the TNT crews...... Otherwise bring your credit cards.

mutt

It does not become fact until it has happened. As of now it may be what you wish or think will happen, nothing more.

As a couple of gentlemen has already mentioned, nobody knows how the two companies will integrate, least of all those at the coalface. EU regulators will also have to approved the deal and may impose conditions or restrictions.

This may also be an opportunity for UPS to challenge the unions.

But where does this end? Can American Airlines take over British Airways and then replace all their planes with N registered aircraft and crews?

Why should UPS get away with it?

Mutt

I doubt UPS will be allowed to operate all EU network on N-reg fleet. They can get away with some routes but surely not all of them. Long existence of Star Air is rather confirming this, let alone smaller feeders.
No doubt TNT value is brand, contracts and network and this has very little to do with TNT Airways as such. At the end of a day TNT Airways is rather small operation. So I see two scenarios based on a fact that 51% should be traceable to EU/EEC individuals: a) UPS will keep TNT Airways (could be rebranded as UPS Europe) through some artificial ownership structure and possibly even grow it at expense of Star Air, although I wouldn't bet this will remain Belgian AOC and LGG base, or b) they will shut TNT Airways and grow Star Air.

There is some value in EU airline apart from intra-EU network and that's a traffic rights to/from Asia and Africa.

Europeans,
Wake up,and I am one.The politics are the prob and until it gets sorted we cant complain.Browntailwhale got my back up as much as anybody else and I dont work for TNT,they must be livid.Polar52 said American parties are not to blame and he/she is dead right.
I should be proud but I find myself jealous because of the rules.What rules you may ask,they are the rules that differ between the USA and the European UNION,union my arse.Im sorry folks but been as pissed off and all as I am show me the road to take on this subject with the rules the way they are.
By the way for those Europeans who recken we have protected internal flights,bull,UPS op a 767 VLC-BCN so thank the Spanish Gov for that and FEDEX op a 757 CGN-MUC.Not anti anything,just realism.
Dont really know where to end this except to say its not anti anybody,as a pilot I hope we all keep our jobs.

What a hot topic, truth is that anyones perception of what should be or what is, is worth less than their 2 cents. The bottom line has an impact on me much less than it does most of you. The fact is, this is happening. The law will dictate how, the preceding result is what you all need to wait for and react to. I guarantee one thing, none of your feelings are worth a damb... YET!

Not quite right, it is not cabotage
 

As everyone here knows, the flying rights granted to airlines are agreements made between the governments. There are several levels of flying rights, and UPS is probably operating under fifth freedom rights, allowing us to pick up volume destined for different countries. I am a pilot, not a lawyer, so don't take what I say below as gospel, but I think I'm in the ballpark.

I fly the UPS 767 VLC-BCN-CGN route routinely, and to imply it is cabotage is incorrect. UPS does not have seventh freedom rights to fly cargo/express inside of Spain, but we are merely picking up volume for destinations outside of Spain for distribution at our Cologne hub to points beyond. The loads are usually extremely light into and out of VLC, so we may actually do that short leg from Barcelona only for lower fuel and parking costs; I actually don't know.

Much of our intra-Europe flying is actually a "change of gauge," where our larger MD11 and 744, fly into our Cologne hub from Asia, the Middle East, and North America, gets sorted and delivered to points beyond on our "smaller" 767 aircraft. Then, or course, the reverse occurs feeding European volume to points worldwide. It's an extremely complex system that is augmented by a large and sophisticated ground transportation network (a package will always go by ground if it can make its delivery time/date). There are many city pairs within Europe UPS does not have the right to fly, so we have a ten year contract with Star Air (Maersk Air) to cover that flying. I believe they use 11 B767SF in our Cologne operation. Our two unions and pilot groups have a very good relationship, and the IPA directly supported SAC during their most recent contract negotiations with UPS. :ok:

....and FEDEX op a 757 CGN-MUC.Not anti anything,just realism.....

well, according to my knowledge FedEx is operating this route as ´repositioning´ to fly MUC-TLV, meaning zero payload from CGN to MUC.... But plse enlighten me if they break German rules each single night by taking payload along & I would be happy to bring this issue forward to the appropriate officials :D

Best Rgds.

Like upsfr8captain says. You're not picking up freight from one location in Spain and delivering it to another in the same country. You are merely picking up freight with destinations in other countries. That's how it works. FedEx do exactly the same

It also seems only pilots are upset about this. What about all the Euro jobs FedEx, UPS etc are creating?? Ramp, sort, maintenance, courier etc etc plus work going out to vendors??

"It also seems only pilots are upset about this. What about all the Euro jobs FedEx, UPS etc are creating?? Ramp, sort, maintenance, courier etc etc plus work going out to vendors??"
exact, and a jet need his dirty oily aircraft mechs,rampers, etc... ie, and compagnies like ups and fedex pay better wages. so it could be interesting for the not flying people to work for oUPS

Companies and unions are always in a battle for position and power. Somtimes more openly than other, but it is always there.

There is now a situation where two groups of employees both have something to win and something to lose. If one group wins the other loses.

I have little doubt that UPS is looking at that as an opportunity.

I feel we must give some respect to the pioneers of the modern package delivery airline as UPS, FedEx and DHL (originally a US based co.) deserve.

No there would not be as many globally employed persons that support these airlines if not for them. The capitalistic environment that allowed them the growth rate they had does not exist in the EU, back then or today.

This can be argued to death but fact is, it is well... factual.

Let's put that "fact" into perspective shall we

Economy of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And that's at the height of the European crisis. All the talk about emerging markets and the euro crisis make people forget that the EU is in fact the largest economy in the world.

The problem is that the EU politicians can never agree on anything apart from setting a new date to talk.

They (LGG and UPS) are now discussing on the eurocarex project (cargo via high speed train). The whole goal of LGG mgmt is to convince UPS to keep the Liège hub alive and running.
A cargo high speed train could link both airport in 40 minutes.
The high speed tracks are already existing. Thalys connects Liège and Cologne multiple times per day for passengers.
EURO CAREX : Cargo Rail Express

EU
 

High Speed train link for cargo ? been talked about for years. More EU - non elected Civil Servants finding ways to spend billions and still take 20 years to get anywhere. I hope they do but it will not happen in my working lifetime. Forgive the pun, EU Techno Civil Servants are on the Gravy Train ! Most of them should get a proper job........they can`t because it does not pay them enough ! Where shall we sit ? Brussels or Strasbourg. It is the only thing these half wits can actually organise .

Rant over.......enjoy your weekend !

737Jock
 

The EU was at best a concept when the major package delivery airlines saw the opportunity and as they created the business we know today.

grounded27

Guess who wrote this...









pssst it was I;), 737jock

Test run happened 2 days ago. FedEx, UPS, TNT & airport involvement mentioned.

International Railway History Made at St. Pancras as a Cargo Carrying TGV Makes First Visit to the S | Rail.co.uk

also

TGV ?La Poste? visits St Pancras - The Railway Magazine Magazine

Lid

TNT Airways to be sold to comply with EU regulations but will continue to operate.

UPS Confirms TNT Airways To Be Sold Prior To TNT Express Acquisition | Fox Business