I've actually heard of those $16-18k per hour rates from more than one source. Just don't know if they are the same rumors repeating themselves or not. The loads don't seem to be over 80 tons so far on the flights I have done. That may change with the Afghanistan push.

Sounds more like ad-hoc charter rates, including fuel, at the peak of last year's fuel costs...

Oh No Thier Still Here!
 

Wa Hoppin???? I thought They Were Gone??? 2009-2 It Is Amazing!

Incredible!!!

If the eurot:mad: contractors(AABO) are a separate animal, then that means they should take the hit with FURLOUGHS, AND DOWNGRADES!! too. If we go by DOH they ALL need to be DOWNGRADED!!!

We continue to have a union "leadership" that refuses to put a halt to this masacre. Yes we changed unions, but at the end of the day the 3 stooges are back at it again. The end result: same mafia different name. Whatever happened to electing new fresh faces?

Pathetic

AABO+Teamsters=VERY unhappy POLAR, ATLAS Pilots

Polax52 is taking a break from PPRuNe. Anyone else who insists on using the "scab" word will also be taking a break.

This is the second and last warning. :ugh:

AABO and the New Union
 

A wolf is a wolf

Same animal different fur

To assume that any union can force a management into changing terms of a legally binding document unless they want to is unrealistic.

One should suspect that given the numerous rewrites of bids that have taken place in the past, that what is published is not fact until it happens, if it is not rebid sooner.

Perhaps it would be wise to wait a few days to see what really happens and not run off a cliff. One must also remember that during contract negotiations, many things are said to guage how foolishly the other side will react.

It's always better to wait and keep ones powder dry. Right now, the perimeter is being prodded for weaknesses.

Now is the time to focus on your negotiations and do things that give your team the maximum leverage. Patience is the watchword.

Well, this is going to get interesting . . . .

With the new bid awards, if I looked at it correctly, it's going to kick people all the way down to an August of 2002 hire date. The projected person is scheduled to take the walk in July.

Sorry to those of you who may be affected.

Man I don't wish this !!!!! on anybody.

Curious thing is, "how many companies give you 4 months of notice before they cut you?" Past experience at other carriers that employed me was at best thirty days notice.

Makes me curious the ultimate agenda behind such notifications, especially noting past extended furlough notifications that didn't happen at Atlas.

On a second front. This may not be a time for Atlas management to start screwing with too many furloughs of US citizens when Atlas is exporting jobs to offshore crew leasing companies such as AABO. Such sub-companies that suffer no losses and only downgrades at best at a higher cost per crewmember comparatively to the same Atlas crewmembers under the same holding company. Could bite them in the posterior when trolling for government AMC contracts and such with the new US administration touting non-outsourcing of US jobs. Might be something for you guys to think about writing to your congressional reps about.

Lets hope our collective efforts under such will convince the company of their past wrongs on that front. Failing that, I'm sure there are alternatives allowed us if you think about it.

It seems like the only way the ABBOs are going to be out of the picture forever is when award 2020-Rev.5 comes out, unless EVERYONE affected start voicing their discontent to management, union, and Congress

enough is enough!!:ok:

Its odd that you at Atlas are complaining about "foreign" pilots taking "your" jobs. Look at what you Atlas pilots do. You are all “foreign” pilots flying Emirates Freight or QANTAS Freight or DHL freight................. I think you better stop complaining about AABO. You ALL are foreign pilots flying someone else’s freight. All this thread is doing is bringing negative attention upon Atlas.

Don't have a problem with foreign pilots. We have a lot at Atlas mainline right now. It's when they created an offshore crew leasing entity (outside union legal protections at that time) strictly to help bust an existing union I have a problem with them. Luckily AABO is only a remnant or thorn in the side that exists now as a remaining piece of leverage for management. Maybe the remaining AABO (@50) will no longer be a factor if we work on it some more. It's just a little more salt in the wound when furloughs and downgrades hit mainline guys and AABO recieves no equitable amount of adjustment to their ranks compared to the mainline. Says a lot about their purpose.

As to the carriers you pointed out, there is no one carrier hauling that freight with the exception to Qantas cargo. Qantas cargo is actually not part of Qantas as I understand it and uses Atlas and Qantas to do it.

Hey gang

Carriers use outsourcing as a cheap way to carry excess cargo. Do you think Qantas uses Atlas because they can do it cheaper? Most of the freight is excess cargo and the company figures it is cheaper to outsource rather than buying or converting aircraft for an operation that may last a short time.

That is a far different than union busting.

Well Said
 

Well Said Nitty-Gritty:D

I DO NOT have a problem with the AABOs, or any other foreign pilot. I DO have a problem seeing fellow senior Atlas mainline pilots being downgraded, while "senior" 8 year AABOs get to keep their their seats. All because somebody refuses to put the europilots at the VERY LEAST by DOH!!!!! oh not to mention the fact that for the last several years they made over 40% more than VERY senior Atlas pilots.

What adds to the mess is seeing a few AABO downgrades, and ZERO furloughs.

I hope you get it now MR messenger.


If Atlas flies for other airlines it is because is COST EFFECTIVE for them.
AABO is not cost effective for Atlas. 40 pilots making Sterling, and a fully staffed office in STN is NOT COST EFFECTIVE!!

AABO
 

AABO pilots are salaried employees, therefore, Atlas tries to fly them 100 hours per month for the salary. I was told it's equivalent to $8500 US.
Almost all of them work on X days and make more. The problem is every Atlas mainline guy, as a result of AABO, flies 30-40 hours per month just to feed AABO 100 hours.
Now AABO has about 50 pilots (INCLUDING THOSE THAT JUMP SENIORITY) flying 100 hours per month while Atlas furloughs. Get rid of AABO and transfer the flying back to mainline and you bring back 2 US taxpayers for every 1 AABO pilot, that restores about 100 pilots jobs.
bpp:ugh:

Just a little ying - yang to life on this subject.

While AABO was and continues to be leverage against the Atlas mainline union crews, the same has been done to them. Most have a hard time caring considering AABO's original purpose against them. Soon after the Atlas mainline guys signed their union contract, Mr. C used the Atlas mainline guys as leverage against his AABO creation to put them in check somewhat. Proffered a new reduced contract to AABO or he would have to re evaluate AABO's cost effectiveness by moving the base elsewhere in Europe. Thus negating the STN Union/Company letter of agreement on AABO that kept them in their remaining envious positions. Leaving them to either no job or a job at the bottom of Atlas mainline should that happen.

Needless to say, they took the reduced contract offered by Mr. C rather than end up at the bottom vs. their ill gotten gained positions at the expense of many mainline guys. The only ones that didn't were the Atlas cross overs that jumped at the union busting upgrades at AABO (originally 19 crossed over out of 600+ Atlas guys). They have rights of seniority at mainline and AABO. Real pieces of work they are.

Ya think
 

Is it not a little strange that the number of pilots and engineers furloughed at Atlas is about the same number of Polar guys and gals that will be merged into the fold?

Just a little observation on my part. O.K. let me have it!

FR8

Yea Spanky, you tell um, right arm!

Nah. I am not going to let you have it. It is a good observation but I doubt that the company is conspiring here. They are not that smart and I don't think the classics will coem abck. Too costly to fly. However, I imagine that Titan may be the recipient of largess in AAWWH's desire to screw you guys. Watch your backside!

drzito (and others) - get the facts straight
 

If you don’t have any other arguments against AABO than posting incorrect facts then you better be quiet - maybe you collect first some correct infomation before making any posts here.

Repeating (intenional?) wrong facts doesn’t make them more correct – it’s just an attack on your own intelligence.

Here some facts to get some posts straight:

1. Compensation:
Atlas Captain 8 yr: USD 162,31/hr x 62 hrs (guarantee) = USD 10.063,22
Overtime after 62 hrs per month

AABO Captain 8 yr: GBP 7.336,41 x 1,3971 (GBP-USD) = USD 10.249,69
Hours are limited by FARs only

2. Comparison Working days – efficiency (both work 17 days/month)
Atlas US:
- day 1: commercial/deadhead US-Europe, rest in hotel
- day 2: start of actual operating duty
--->
- day 16: operating duty ends in Europe
- day 17: commercial/deadhead Europe-US

AABO:
- day 1: positioning from STN, actual operating duty starts
--->
- day 17: operating duty ends, followed by positioning back to STN

Result for a 17 day pattern:
Atlas US per month:
- 15 days effective duty
- 2 more hotel nights
- 1-2 commercial long-haul Business Class flights (deadhead considered)
- 2 US continental flights to/from homebase airport

AABO per month:
- 17 days effective duty
- 2 Ryanair flights to/from STN

Result for a 12 days ON – 13 days OFF – 5 days (followed by more days in the next month) pattern:
Atlas US:
- 14 days effective duty
- 3 more hotel nights
- 2-3 commercial long-haul Business Class flights (deadhead considered) US-Europe-US
- 3 US continental flights to/from homebase airport

AABO:
- 17 days effective duty
- 3 Ryanair trips to/from STN

Costs:
- Atlas US Captain per day: USD 10.063,22 : 17 = USD 591,95
- AABO Captain per day: USD 10.249,69 : 17 = USD 602,92
- Per diem/day: USD 56,40
- Hotel/night: USD 100,-
- Long-haul Business Class Flight: USD 2.500,- one way (estimated)
- US continental flight within US: USD 300,- one way (estimated)
- Ryanair flight within Europe: USD 200,- (average as per max SPP allowance list)

Monthly costs for an Atlas US Captain on a 17 day trip:
- Compensation: USD 10.063,22
- 2 travel days: 2 x USD 591,95 = USD 1.183,90
- 2 travel days per diem: 2 x USD 56,40 = USD 112,80
- 2 hotel nights: 2 x USD 100,- = USD 200,-
- 1 long-haul Business Class flight: USD 2.500,-
- 2 continental US flights: 2 x USD 300,- = USD 600,-
Total = USD 14.656,92 (only one long-haul Business Class
flight considered !)

Monthly costs for an AABO Captain on a 17 day trip:
- Compensation: USD 10.249,69
- 2 Ryanair flights: 2 x USD 200,- = USD 400,-
Total = USD 10.649,69

DIFFERENCE: USD 4.010,23 per month to the advantage of AABO x 45
= USD 180.000,-/month = USD 2.200.000,-/year

Please do your own calculation for the different pattern length – it will be an even higher number.

Result:
- 3 AABO Captains have the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains.
- 3 AABO Captains can fly + 300 hrs per month for the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains, who can fly only 124 hrs for these costs.
- AABO paid quite a lot of your profit sharing bonus.
- If Atlas US crewmembers can do the same hours and days for the same price then you should and management may talk about AABO.

3. Comparison Vacation days
- Atlas US: 14 days/year, NO pro-ration of days off
- AABO: 28 days/year, WITH pro-ration of days off
= Same number of vacation and working days per year

4. Other details:
Atlas US crewmembers work 17 days per month since February 2006.

AABO crewmembers
- worked 18 days per month until 2009 for the same salary,
- no premium pay for the first 3 overtime days until 2009,
- reduced annual longetivity pay for the last 3 years

STN office is doing administration for
- all STN based crewmembers (Atlas & AABO) and
- all European based Atlas and Polar ground staff.

5. Some finals:

Question 1:
Where are your comments about GSS and your demand that GSS must go?
- They operate 3 x 400’s, soon 3 more -8's, all owned by Atlas, operated by European pilots.
- This would/could be 60 less furloughs at Atlas.
- And they even operate into the US!

Question 2:
Why don’t you complain that there are no furloughs/downgrades at Polar, as there are several junior to AABO and should/will be merged with Atlas (soon)?
- We (Atlas & AABO) operate several of the DHL (= Polar) flights.

Question 3:
No other solution/discussion regarding the furloughs than bashing on AABO ?
- What’s about a proposal from the Union or anybody else for a solution to minimize the furloughs or one which would not require them at all, such as everybody works 80%?

Comment about Titan:
- Maybe not a bad idea to move all AABO crewmember to Titan and hire more international crewmembers there to operate a bunch of the -400s and even the 747-8’s under a different/new certificate.
- Would then be much easier to be accepted by and operate several aircraft for some European and other operators, who can’t/don’t want to make business with an US company to fly their freight – see GSS.
- And as the above figures show it will result in a higher profit for AAWH as less crewmembers are required to do the same.
- Thank’s for the idea, we will go for it and will propose it at the proper places – maybe you consider to get your JAR licence soon.:ok::\

HyFly,

Consider another prospective
Atlas gets rid of AABO.
Junior Captains/ Senior FOs keep their position/upgrade to the left seat.
Furlough junior FOs, are kept on property.
That brings the overall cost of wages down, as compared to paying senior mainline FOs AND AABO Captains.
The Union finds the leverage that it needs to represent the combined Atlas/Polar workforce.
And if your replay is that you have worked for Atlas for X amount of years, look back how much that is cost to the mainline guys in delayed upgrades and Furloughs. AABO getting canned might not be fair, just like what AABO did was not.
I try to use this forum for an open discussion, but I am not going to be mocked by you 2 months before my last paycheck.

hyfly
 

Hyfly,
Let's assume I was contracted to TNT, BA, KLM, or even DHL Europe and these carriers were facing a major contraction. Now, since I am a contract pilot working for a crew servicing company in Europe, what would my fate be?

Let's say I kept telling management I was cheaper would they listen?

BTW, your numbers in your previous are not accurate. Several Atlas pilots D/H on the companies equipment to Europe. Also, several times I've seen AABO pilots commercialing on BA and others from the states to Europe. Transportation costs are a push.

Again, flight hours are pulled from mainline (even senior to AABO) pilots and given to AABO to "prove" you're cheaper. When the main crewforce is stuck at 30-40 hours per month and being paid 62 hours you do the math. Answer the first paragraph honestly and you'll know why we feel the way we do!

bpp

uhh I don't think we have any 8 year captains at Atlas I know I've been here for 10 years now and still don't see THAT event horizon......

Hyfly,

As far as I understand it GSS (a majority UK owned company) dry-lease the aircraft from Atlas, which are then operated on the G-reg by UK/European pilots flying freight for a long-term UK customer (BAWC). "They even fly to the US". Yes, with freight for a UK customer.:ugh:

HyFly
 

Quote from Hyfly:

"- We (Atlas & AABO) operate several of the DHL (= Polar) flights."

What Polar/DHL flights are being operated by AABO? Didn't know AABO had a certificate.

BA

All that being said.....

Is it true that US citizens/taxpayers are being put out of work and non US Citizens/taxpayers are employed before them out of seniority and doing US Military work or compensating for work done in lue of?

Gees if true, the IBT would at least send out a letter to be signed and sent to your house rep. like the stuff we get often from them. How does the IBT feel about this?

Doesn't Titan offer the same exact services that Atlas offeres and is nothing more than an "alter ego for Atlas/Polar?" Ultimately, the Europeans will be training Air Force One I guess. A TRTO also when we have unemployed people! Too many wrong things here!

I think too much time is being waisted on the Polar/Atlas/AABO issue when we wont have a leg to stand on when this foriegn opporater certificate becomes a real airline and Atlas will be part of a history book! We are missing the forest for a tree! The IBT and has no prower outside of the US. The Atlas Air Pilot Group is being cleverly circumvented!!!!

AABO
 

Pharang_Baa

I have to guess that you are not an American from your moniker.
However you do still have a spell check on your computer do you not?
Try a little proof read before the post maybe, it couldn’t hurt.

HyFly,

The point that I believe P.B. is trying to make here is:

There have just been over 100 American crews put out on the street.
Non-American crews are flying American military flights including bringing home dead American soldiers. This is also on American registered aircraft, for an American Company.

This does not even take into account the DOH issue here.

This is wrong, just plain as that. It is immoral, and un-just.

Now on to the Titan debacle:

Titan has been set up to CYA so to speak for the Company.

This is a way to DRY lease an airframe that they do not have a customer for.
It costs money for the a/c to sit, and it does not make money if it is not flying.

If you think this is a ploy to set up a crew leasing company, you are giving these guys more credit than they deserve.

200's Better to lease them than to park them. (Of course if Michael were still here he would chop them rather than have the competition operate them).

400’s Same as above, if you do not have a customer for the a/c and you can lease it to someone that does. It does not take a rocket scientist here.

-8’s Or as some say the 800’s, The Company has 12 ordered with the option on 10 more.
If you don’t have a customer, need I continue?


Don’t read too much into this Titan thing, this is not a screw the mainline guys thing here, in my opinion.

FR8

bpp & best angle
 

BPP:
sorry, but again an incorrect fact:
All AABO are NOT on contract, they are employees of one of the Atlas companies.
Therefore your scenario starts already with an incorrect assumption and is therefore void.

Regarding the figures:
Of course are AABO crewmembers are as well flying all around the world on commercial flights - there is no difference as you know.

However, to get some compareable figures a "standarized" pattern has to be assumed and figures taken which are as close as possible to the real ones.

If we compare the extremes there will be the fact that sometimes the figures are just the other way round - but that would not be on a standard pattern.

And if you look closely to the figures and remarks you will see that I took only 1 commercial long haul Business Class flight into account, even as there are always 2 crossings US-Europe or v.v.
And as you know, there are costs for such flights ranging from somewhere USD 1.500,- to 3.500,-.

Skualo:
- fact 1: We at AABO got a job offered - we didn't set up AACS/AABO
- fact 2: We got the job offered as too few of Atlas US crewmembers accepted the offer to move to STN
- fact 3: If you would have moved to STN - the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time this was offered - you could be in the left seat for 9 years now.

==> Don't bash on the individual at AABO

==> Don't make the individual at AABO responsible for your decision

Best Angle:
It's hard to have decent discussion with guys posting such useless comments.
As everybody knows AABO does have no certificate, but the Atlas US and AABO crewmembers are flying Polar flights.
And it was not the point who has a certificate, there was something different.
Maybe you read the point again.

Hyfly
 

Just getting it right. You present AABO as if it were a seperate airline when, in fact, AACS/AABO is simply a group of non-union crewmembers on the Atlas certificate. Nothing more. AABO is not a stand alone entity. It cannot operate aircraft on it's own.

As to the Polar/DHL flights, I ask because I do not see any operated by Atlas any more. Polar is now operating the ILN-ANC-HKG flight.

1. Offered a job just like those at Eastern Airlines when they were looking for non union replacement workers. No, you didn't set up AACS. You and your ilk just took advantage of the opportunity without concern of the moral implications. I doubt it ever entered into your collective mind set judging from your posts what you were doing.

2. Did you ever ask yourself why there were too few? Only 19 out of 600+ crew members taking the company up on the STN non union, non inline seniority upgrades says a lot to me and obviously most of the Atlas mainline guys recognized what the company's true effort was on that.

3. See answer 2 again. Few more took the offer the subsequent times and then complained when their was yet another tier of seniority created after new company interpretations. That was latter resolved to only two tiers AACS and Mainline.

After reviewing your previous postings on TOS between us, I noted you did a very good job of cherry picking answers and misconceptions to pump up your numbers for your argument. That is to be expected.

While doing so, you confirmed how the company has now used the Atlas CBA (in which AACS helped in minimizing by their creation/leverage through mainline 1 to 1 furloughs to AACS new hires) to bring your previous lucrative contract down to what it is now. How was it stated by Mr. C. "if we can't get the costs down in STN (AACS) we will have to relocate the STN base elsewhere more cost effective in Europe. BTW, that would negate the STN Letter Of agreement with the Union putting you (AACS/AABO) in as new hire seniority and pay." Took no time at all for all but about 5 (the protected cross overs) to sign that new AACS contract after hearing that. Funny how all of AACS/AABO wants to be friends until coming into parity with ill gotten seniority/pay/upgrades is mentioned somewhere-somehow. Then the true colors of original intent come blazing forth.

Now the company ties your contract TOS to the timing of the Atlas mainline one. That way, they don't give you too much now that they don't need you that much. You don't get anything new until we do.

So in the process of sticking it to the Mainline guys with ill gotten upgrades and past lucrative pay, you have unexpectantly stuck it to yourselves. You will find little sympathy on that except among your ilk. Most of your kind got the upgrade, flight time, the first TOS lucrative pay and left knowing what they were doing. Leaving for that next stable expat job somewhere else that they were just newly qualified for as soon as they could. AABO is now down to less than 50. I guess there are those that just can't get a job elsewhere in a legit manner despite seeing the bridge is out down the road. Guess you will just have to find another startup non union crew leasing place looking for non union replacement workers and convince them of your past arguments about what good guys you are. There are always some companies looking for that kind somewhere.

I don't think there will be many shedding tears upon AABO's departure considering the Atlas numbers that had been furloughed in past years and present while you boys kept moving along protected by the warden on so many levels.

Now there is a more labor friendly government in place compared to the last 9 years. Exporting of jobs while furloughing employees in the US seems to be a bad thing now. That took long enough. So while the company tries getting more government contracts, the AACS/AABO issue will be thrown into congresses face at every opportunity and soon the company may realize that AABO is more expensive than they are worth. With 1.4 million collective Teamster votes vs. the past 50K ALPA votes (at best when they felt like supporting us) we might get their attention now. It is an agenda item for the government and Teamsters.

Hyfly

Bravo!!:D

Eurobouffon, I will give you an A- for your effort presenting your facts, You have learned well from your master number 1 (Est-ce que tu me comprends?) I am sure your presentation has been to Purchase a few times, and that is one of the reasons why you are still employed.

For now I will only debate a few of your non-sense points:

You forgot to mention the fact that for the last 5 years the exchange rate between GBP vs USD fluctuated between 1.8 to 2.0, and not until December 2008 it came down to the 1.4 range.

This means that a “Senior 8 year” ABBO Captain with a 7,336.41 a month salary (thanks for providing the exact figure) makes 88036.92 GBP a year at an average of 1.9 exchange rate he made at least for the last 5 years US167,270.48

The difference between Atlas-AABO is equal to US 44,274.20 a year!!!
Based only on that amount, AABO profit sharing is higher than Atlas!!!
a profit that could not have happened with 40 pilots, and NO AIRCRAFT.

There are not 8 year Captains at Atlas, that has been extinct specie(thanks to you), therefore your comparison is pointless.

Your comment “AABO paid a lot for Atlas profit sharing is quite the opposite”

As mentioned before on previous posts, AABO has no airplanes, therefore no 121 certificate(you might not even know what that means) how the heck can you jumpseat on US carriers as several of you do. Do you tell the Captain, or gate agent you work for Atlas, or AABO? how convenient!!

One more question for you:
Imagine you were at Carrefour standing in line just about to pay, and 40 persons jumped in front of you, and by the time you get to the cashier you hear: "sorry we are closed" would you be upset?

That is a true story at Atlas!!

Next time, please also show 8 year FO pay so that I can do your math again, and remember that when things go bad with Foreign Carriers the first to GO are the expats!! consider yourself lucky to still have a job.

Au revoir

Drzito
 

Very well said ! It is time for a change. You guys deserve better.:O

drzito

just to make it clear every pilot of AABO is per it´s contract an employee of ATLAS AIR INC.and nothing else.

From Titan Aviation

Looks pretty specific for crew leasing being held out to me...:ouch:

Another thing to scope in....

I say again. Please shut down this thread. You Atlas pilots might get your wish. No foreign pilots flying "our" freight. You all would be out of a job. Cant you see the hypocrisy in your arguments? STFU!!!!

The AACT terminal in Incheon that they talk about for Titan leasing is the exact same terminal that the Polar side has been using since its inception.

And to think that they're reducing our flights and no more overnights there. Yep, Titan Leasing had better be watched close. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

SALE
 

Heard Polar was sold today. Anyone else hear that?

You have completely missed the point. Atlas has crew members of many nationalities – and no one cares what color anyone’s passport is. I suspect that you would have a hard time finding a European airline that employs as many Americans as Atlas does Europeans.

The issue is the structure of AABO and its being protected while the mainline group faces a large furlough, aggravated by past management’s blatant use of it as a threat to the union.

Electric Jet
 

What is the use. I give up!

:ugh:

So in the process of sticking it to the Mainline guys with ill gotten upgrades and past lucrative pay, you have unexpectantly stuck it to yourselves. You will find little sympathy on that except among your ilk. Most of your kind got the upgrade, flight time, the first TOS lucrative pay and left knowing what they were doing

Pot meet Kettle

I wish to emphasize that my finding on the merits of this case was that Atlas’ flying of Polar’s business was the direct cause of all the furloughs and downgrades at issue here
Lawrence T. Holden, Jr.
Impartial Chairman