GSS morale misery
 

GSS at Stansted the B747 operation which always pleads poverty yet had three 370 million dollar brand new -8's, replacing their 400's, flying freight on behalf of BA, is continued to be run into the ground by the incumbent chief pilot - a pilot hating individual with zero personal skills, who has now reached a new low.

This ex-Cathay cancerous assassin is now taking a leaf from Ryanair's book; he is now offering B747 courses for a debt of £9000 a pilot - taken out in their name, and they hate him for it and the job itself, a crap salary going nowhere, economy travel on duty, no staff travel at all and 'selected' clubby command upgrades; one new joiner described it as the worst job he's ever had and wants his money back, although the C.P. expects plenty of takers.

It's one of the lowest if not 'the' paid jobs in the UK; below secretary money. The Cathay regime of 'all checking and no training' is alive and well and increasing. The rumour is that the pilots are going to get a letter together independent of the ineffective balpa, and lobby BA to get him to resign when he reaches 65, not long from now, citing the company's survival with him at the helm.

Just as when he left Cathay, there was a party amongst the crews, so there will be in GSS if ever the day arrives when he walks.

You make it sound like they've gone out and bought the -8F's themselves. The dry least costs from Atlas are obviously higher than the -400F's but so will the wet-lease charge to BAWC.
If you don't like it why don't you leave? I'm sure someone would love to step into your shoes and fly a shiney -8F, even if it did cost them £9000 and a piss-poor salary??

And that argument FM, is why the airline industry, both pax and cargo (and I've flown for both), is going down the crapper!

posted very few times but
 

Flight Mech, you really are a nasty piece of work. I don't work in the airline business but I despise you & your cancerous ilk.

OUT

GSS morale misery
 

My second comment was out of order and I apologise. However carlrsymington, if you're not in the business then you don't really qualify to make comments such as yours

Cathay taught SM well and he is well qualified to run an airline (MBA etc) and is generally a knowledgeable person. What his brief was from BA when he took over as CP is a matter between him and his employer, but a fundemental model will be the Cathay one (excepting the length of the command upgrade course - GSS is much shorter) and CPA are on a race to the bottom regarding conditions at all levels but especially in freight.
The point is this is now a job that is in terminal decline as far as respect from employers is concerned. The only workable solution seems to have a very strong union,work for the national carrier and be prepared to shut the operation down if necessary. Employers will only turn the corner when they can't fill the operating seats and that's going to take forever. Sorry.:D

Midnight Cruiser, a slight correction: "he is dealing with some persistent poor performers, and not before time." They are mainly and almost exclusively senior F/O's that won't make command; BA has plenty of them as well.
The C.P has manipulated pay and commands and ever since he's been in charge with fewer and fewer BA old boys to stop his excesses. For example, Obliging pilots to take a pay-cut and freeze to save jobs; almost within a month the GSS management including himself get a fat bonus.
An able pilot up for command who apparently was not a 'company man' in the past by reputation, was told to pass 3 checks to be considered, which he did including a command check. He was then refused a command course by the C P. He had nowhere to go, no recourse and so was obliged to leave.
At the same time, and going against the advice of his own trainers a new BA secondee was given 3 or more successive final command checks until he past, because CP wanted him. There was also a rumour that the CP told an eminent trainer to mark the other guy down which apparently was refused.
Curiously this same eminent and much loved trainer was refused a new -8 course himself; possibly reserved for the CP when he reaches 65?
What is strongly rumoured however, is everyone is marked down by one category after this popular trainer sends in his reports. So that 2 becomes a 3, and 3 a 4 and so on.
Something is rotten is the State of Denmark.

Attitudes and Expectations - Keep Them In Check
 

Sounds like GSS is a job for those who cannot find another job (i.e., lost a job and cannot find one due to the economy) - or they are just fans of the 747 who are also gluttons for punishment. Given that GSS has such a poor repuation for terms/culture/morale, I cannot understand why anyone would consider staying LONGER than the training bond requirement. Just get your 747-800 experience, see the world (check the destination boxes with some serious fatigue) and then find a better job with a marketable 747 type rating... :ok: Go in with the right attitude and the expectation that you will leave down the road. You will then feel a lot less stressed... :}

From what I have heard, don't expect to go to GSS and then change it much for the better. Why try to push a river uphill? Unfortunately, sounds like that culture focuses on cheapness and low margin freight flying. Sadly, this is the state of many airlines around the world where pilots are not considered professionals who deserve competitive wages.

Quite a shame that GSS is really this bad according to the many voices on this and other forums - it has the potential to be a great job with interesting/varied flying and excellent equipment. Too bad pilots are given no respect in this case (although quite common these days). :mad: Pilots qualified to fly the 747-800F should not have to worry so much about paying their basic mortgages (or divorce alimony combined with mortgages given these rosters).

So, to reiterate, I wouldn't go there and expect to make any money. Just try to set your expectations accordingly. Instead, go in like a mercinary and get your type rating, get some good international flight experience and hours, and then find a better job. Stay until you can find a better job (maybe look at the ME or Asia for starters as your training bond is almost paid off) and then leave it behind. :cool: Change your attitude/perspective and treat it like the temporary job it should be! Pilots = mercinaries these days.

Just in the interests of a bit of balance, from one who presently works there;

The new aircraft come from Atlas, and the operating costs are passed on to the customer. GSS is an ACMI operation.

Piss off the boss in any airline or any company and you are going to find that your prospects fall short of those who have kept thir heads down.

Those who have been denied commands, and they are only a handful, are in general below average performers. There are or have been a couple of exceptions but they are or were individuals who could be best described as their own worst enemies. One has left and I wish him the very best in his new position. I would further advise that he wind his neck in and keep Schtum in his own best interest. The other individual will get another shot as the person so reviled by Munchkin is retiring shortly. At 65 a -8 conversion will be of little value to either him or the company.

The Secondee arrangement is a disgrace but it is made perfectly clear to anyone who is offered a position. If you can't cope with it, don't join.

Positioning in economy only happens when the flights are full and really only affects a couple of routes. Yes it is a pain in the butt but not a weekly event. I have had to do it once in the last 18 months and I could have happily strangled someone but I lived to fight another day. Should it be changed? Definitely. Will it be changed? Not in my lifetime. The much reviled SM is trying to have things improved as are BALPA but the fact of the matter is that GSS operating crew rank below junior BA cabin crew and retirees on golfing jollies. The day it all gets too much I shall retire. Assuming that they day I cannot mount the ladder to the upper deck does not arrive first.

Company investigator , if you have any documentary proof that sim grades are being fiddled, please pass it on to BALPA. I have often wondered why Captains score 1 when an FO gets a 2 for a similar level of performance but such things are not confined to GSS. A TRE mate of mine alluded to the fact that companies are concerned that in the event of an incident, a Captain who has poorer grades would invite the attentions of the authorities so they tend to get away with more. FOs are being assessed as potential commanders and so are the focus of more critical attention.

There are one or two, generally domiciled on the European mainland, who are rotten timekeepers and who have tended to bunk off when it suits putting all the pressure on the standby crews.SM has indeed come crashing down on them and rightly so.

The pay is not the best, but things are starting to improve with the introduction of flight pay and there is an automatic annual increase up to pp12. Again it is not a secret, if the wages will not cover your outgoings, look somewhere else.
Please do not go away with the impression that GSS is full of no hopers who cannot find employment anywhere else. That is simply untrue and such an attitude would not get you very far in an interview scenario, as a couple of Secondee hopefuls found out and full marks to SM for not letting the door hit them in the arse on the way out.

So to sum up. GSS not perfect but compared to some out there, not the worst by a long chalk. A look through these forums would soon put you right on that score. Some supposed paradises, such as another 74 operator with red tails are much, much worse both in terms of lifestyle and command prospects, not to mention a vicious and military orientated training system. The majority of those I work and sit in far flung bars with are fairly content. Those that are not go elsewhere and we all move one place up the greasy pole as a result.

The whole industry is in a death spiral at the moment. GSS is small and under the radar and long may it remain so.I would rather be here than in an IT operator at the present, wondering ifvI will have job next month, better here with the time to sit by the pool typing this dribble than working 5 sector days with 20 minute turn arounds for some crazed LOCO or waiting 20 years for a command that may never happen because I never flew single seat FJ and don't roll up my left trouser leg. Horses for courses. It will do me until I fall over foaming or can no longer get my suitcase up the steps and I am not alone in this view.:p

All the best to all.

Playing devil's advocate, you could argue that a bunch of pilots opting to fly 'BA work' on lower Ts&Cs is a disgrace. The secondee arrangement is a compromise - quite a reasonable one if you ask me.

So, an honest and up-to-date opinion from zeddb, a current employee, regarding the state of play at GSS right now. As he says, the situation is made clear on interview. If you don't like it, don't join. The OP obviously has a beef and it's not "economy travel on duty" unless your unlucky enough to end up on a flight in no club/first space. Unfortunately with the current state of the industry someone will always take the job at the current T&C's which is the point i was trying to make earlier.

Not really, if BA decide not to operate their own dedicated freighters and out-source to someone else then it's free for the taking surely. Do you have the same opinion of DHL who fly alot of BAWC's intra-european freight??

I've never really understood why BA didn't lease the aircraft directly from Atlas and operate themselves, especially when they have the crew and maintenance infrastructure already in place for the type (well in the case of the original -400's anyway) Again, i guess it's ££££

BA are free to do lots of things. For the sake of industrial harmony they tend to consult with the BACC when it comes to matters regarding pilots. The compromise that was reached when BA decided to outsource the flying of much of it's cargo was the secondee agreement. That agreement is no more/less disgraceful than GSS pilots choosing to fly BA cargo at a lower rate than BA pilots.

We all live in the real world - I harbour no ill will against any GSS pilots, however I've got no time for anyone who would take issue with me should I bid for a GSS secondment.

Bus driver,

I harbour no ill will against the command secondees. They are to a man thouroughly decent and nice to fly with. They are that way because our much maligned DFO screens them to ensure that arrogant arses don't get past the interview stage.

As for the system itself, well if you are looking in from BA mainline with your seniority intact and the best conditions in the uk then it must seem great. If I were a BA SFO I would grab it with both hands. From the perspective of GSS, well maybe not so great when you are rapidly running out of years for your one and only shot which external conditions such as multiple redundancies have denied you. But hey, life's a bitch.

The argument that GSS would not exist without BA is a valid one but as flight mech mentioned, DHL also carry BA cargo and BA secondees are noticeable by their absence over there.

If you apply to be a Secondee then the very best of luck. I would had life and luck been kinder. You'll need to abandon the bus though and spend some time over on the coal burning fleet first. Just have a thought for those who have never had the opportunities afforded those lucky enough to be in BA and who would like a couple of years in the sunlight before retirement.

I think everyone knows that the secondee issue was a "deal-sweetener" when flying rights meant that Atlas could no longer fly their N-registered Chelsea Rose 747 with US crews for BA and GSS were formed. You would have thought that after 10 years of operation it would no longer be necessary.

Everyone is told the terms and conditions when they join GSS so if they don't like it why sign up in the first place? I don't think the moral is too bad at GSS. It's a dream from the circus I worked for before. I've had economy about 4 times in 5 years which I can't complain about. Salary is low but last year I flew 400 hours. Go fly for BA if you want more money. Sure you will get double the pay but you will work twice as hard also. Every company has its challenges and sure we don't all always agree with decisions that are made. Seems this post was started by one of those agony aunts that you have to endure on a trip, holding up the bar and complaining who will never be happy no matter where he is or whatever company he is in. I agree with one of the earlier posts. If you hate it so much then do us all a favour and leave. You probably part of the small contingent of "dead wood" in the company that needs to be gotten rid of anyway. Maybe some previous CX methods should be drawn on to achieve this. I have spoken to several ex secondees who would come back in a heart beat. GSS certainly isnt the worst place, not the best but then how much do you expect from a company with 3 planes? On the whole I think GSS is great.

Munchkin, if you so dissatisfied have you spoken to management about your concerns or are you one of the usual guys that loves to moan and complain on track but never bother to stick your head above the parapet? Seems like you know a bit about Cathay. Maybe you should go there. (or go back there). You may fit in there well as I have never spoken to a satisfied CX pilot yet. Lots of politics there for you to get your teeth into. Don't think it's GSS morale misery. It seems as though it's your own morale misery.

Girls and Munchkin time to stop the bitching.If you feel so strongly about a company why would you stay? Leave and Im sure GSS would hold a party but you may not get a picture ( nothing personal just cost saving you understand) .To make libellous statements about an individual who cannot defend himself is cowardly .Glad to see you got more response than you did to your last thread on 10th July .Same post different day !

I worked at GSS a few years ago and must say that I quite enjoyed my time there. The people were very nice to work with and I only left because of better basing opportunities and yes - much better pay.

There are downsides to any job and the Airline Industry is not what it used to be, but as they say: you create your own experience.

SM is a very knowledgable man and I can see why he would get annoyed with someone, who does not actively prepare for checks or all line flights in a professional manner. And there were a few.

I can assure you, that GSS is nothing like CX when it comes to checking....so chill.

Zeddb

"The argument that GSS would not exist without BA is a valid one but as flight mech mentioned, DHL also carry BA cargo and BA secondees are noticeable by their absence over there"

Yes, but DHL carry freight for numerous customers yet GSS has one customer - BA. Thus the secondee arrangement.

I agree that Munchkin (everyone knows who he is) paints a pretty dim picture. At the end of the day, employees are flying a stunning aircraft, worldwide with a friendly bunch of colleagues and there are far less desirable jobs out there.

ATB

GSS morale misery
 

As I've already stated I'm sure the secondee arrangement was considered a deal sweetener when the BAWC/GSS operation was inaugurated, with BAWC being the only customer and GSS feeling pressure to accept it. However, several contract renewals later and with GSS just celebrating their 10 year anniversary I would have thought there should have been some way of ridding themselves of the secondee issue by removing it from the contract. However, relying on a single customer in a business that is in a downturn then they're probably leaning over a barrel.

The Secondee issue is made very clear when an offer is made. If you believe that makes one unfit for command, then maybe you should get out more.

The job is fairly easy, nice aircraft, nice people, chance of getting on, training positions open to all regardless of seat and decent hotels for the most part.
Lots of days off too.

Personally, I can retire whenever I feel like but carry on because I find it agreeable.

Not too many airlines like that these days. If the whole concept offends, don't join or look elsewhere.

Z

'But IMO, any pilot who see the secondments as morally acceptable and normal business practice, probably lacks the backbone to be a commander anyway'

Blimey, that's pretty harsh. At the end of the day, this business isn't fair. The BA-Dan Air, BA-Caledonian, BA-Citiflyer arrangements still leave a sour taste with many people but we just have to get over it and move on.

I understand the secondee arrangement is sensitive but that's the way things are. If BA suddenly opened up a handful of -400 commands for GSS fos, I'm sure you'd take it or would it be against your morals?

GSS morale misery
 

Oh come on. That's purely hypothetical! In your latter example we all know that's never going to happen. BAWC have always known that they have GSS by the balls and can squeeze them whenever they feel like it.

Okeedokee. I'll leave this one.

Safe flying.

Atlas Air is hiring.

I think it is pretty easy to convert over to an FAA license and the medicals are quite easy, too. So instead of paying $14,000 to fly a 74-8, why not look into coming over and actually BEING paid to do the same thing. Training pay is $1,600/month and first year min guarantee flight pay is $3,750/month.

Atlas is looking for seasoned pilots who will be decent people to fly with on a 16 hour trip. And if it is the 747 that you want, we have plenty (including -8's).

EW

If enough pilots bail out of airlines that pay poverty wages, they will get the message...

Midnight,

I'm not defending the Secondee system, I don't like it any more than anyone else but I was offered a job with the whole deal explained in writing and after thinking about it , I decided that for me, at my age and in my financial position it wasn't a deal breaker. Others thought differently and maybe didn't join but I wasn't all on my lonesome on the induction course and quite a few others joined in the months following. Should recruitment restart, I very much doubt that there will be difficulty in attracting candidates. The actual number of secondees is not that great and as BA expand and commands/A380/787 slots come around, I wouldn't expect the total numbers to increase dramatically even if faces change.

Quite why the decision that I and quite a few others made renders us spineless and unfit for command I don't understand. The GSS FO s who have been promoted and also the trainers who promoted them would beg to differ I'm sure.

As I have pointed out before and now for positively the last time, no one puts a gun to your head and forces you to join. If you don't like it, you will not be hunted down and killed should you leave. Those that stay are generally happy enough. If you prefer the desert or the locos, then fill your boots.

Atlas are of course the parent company. Several of our pilots worked for Atlas on the original B A contract before GSS was set up. Quite apart from getting an FAA licence, the day Brits can fill US flightdeck positions in the US, I shall eat my shorts, seeing as I don't have a hat to hand. I appreciate the thought though.:)

For the nth time, no one is defending the Secondee arrangement, it's just the situation that exists and you either accept it and live with it or you go elsewhere. The arrangement affects no other uk airline and what GSS pilots choose to live with or not is the business of GSS pilots and no one else. We all want commands as much as anyone else in the industry and yes we would all rather the whole business went away. It isn't going to anytime soon so everyone lives with it. Most recent commands have gone to GSS first officers, not BA ones and just about all those who joined in the first couple of years are now captains.

Once more no one appreciates being called spineless just for accepting a situation that no one can do anything about. Most would rather accept it and have a job than see the business go elsewhere, probably under the same deal due to the threat of industrial action from BA BALPA. No it isn't fair that thre BA pilots who are in the same union as we are can impose their will over our commands but there it is. If feelings were as strong as you seem to feel they should be I feel pretty certain that there would have been some sort of action by GSS members by now. There hasn't been and there is no imminent prospect of any such thing. If that offends your sense of what's right and wrong then so sorry, but I for one will not be handed sharpened bullets to fire by someone with a grievance that I don't share.

If you are a current GSS pilot and a BALPA member then feel free to make your representations to the cc. If you don't work for GSS then please refrain from passing judgement.

Once more, no it isn't right and neither is it fair but that's life. Being made redundant several times wasnt fair either but it happened. Blaming others changes nothing.

I am at a loss to understand why you think that should be so in the case of Caledonian. (I presume you mean British Caledonian.)

Ummm...how would UK, European, or other non-US citizen or non-Green Card holders be able to work for Atlas Air???

They wouldn't.

Just ask the approximately 100 Stansted-based non-US Atlas Air pilots who had their career flushed down the toilet when the base was closed for "economic reasons" in July 2009.

Unfortunately, GSS is a train set operated by Atlas and BA. Its neither the worst nor the best of jobs out there. Like any company, you need to make of it what you will...and if it doesn't suit you...leave graciously for greener pastures rather than become engulfed by the negativity of the situation.

Life will pass you by if you spend your time wishin' and hopin' that the BA secondee situation will be dis-continued.

PG

There are some of us within BA that want the secondments to end too. BA work flown by BA pilots. It wouldn't be difficult for BA to lease its own freighters and fly its own work.
Sadly, internal politics meant that GSS was set up and BA pilots work was given away. I'm guessing GSS pilots don't want to hear that though?

GSS morale misery
 

To be honest I've always wondered why BA didn't lease the aircraft directly from Atlas themselves and operate them. Especially as you already had the crew force and maintenance facilities in place for the -400? I guess there's less risk having someone else take care of the operation and therefore BAWCs costs become relatively fixed.

That and the fact that the ex 400 chief pilot saw an opportunity to make a fast buck off the back of his former colleagues.

The original British Airways Cargo operation was closed down and the B707s and brand new B747-236F sold on as it wasn't making money. Very few airlines fly a dedicated cargo fleet, most recently Delta closed down NWA Cargo.

Lufthansa Cargo was built on the shell of the old German Cargo initially, Air France Cargo is a fraction of it's former size. Had BA taken in house the cargo operation as it stands, the cost base would have been higher. Commercially it's an arms length company or nothing I think.

Do we want to see our jobs disappear? No, do you? Don't you people have enough advantages over the rest of us? Maybe you should be entitled to 50% of our salaries as we at GSS are evidently taking the food out of the mouths of your families. How about BA pilots have a percentage of all commands, everywhere? After all, any aircraft in the air could be flown by BA crews and therefore it could be argued that any operator is taking work away from BA pilots.

Sometimes I think that Waterside should be in the shape of a hollow volcano with the BA CC in the middle stroking white cats whilst plotting world domination.

Here's a radical idea, If BA decide to take the whole thing in house then the GSS pilots should be given the same deal that BMI pilots were and put onto the BA seniority list with grandfather rights at STN.

I'm guessing BA pilots don't want to hear that though?

It's not going to happen because it is far more profitable for BA to keep the whole thing at arm's length. The secondees keep the BA cc quiet, GSS pilots just get on with the job and everyone is happy, or at least relatively so.

It will be interesting to speculate what would happen to the secondee system if and when BA stop operating the 747 400. Will they pay for their FO's to be 747 8 type rated so they can have a cushty number flying cargo? I wouldn't bet my career on it.:E

It does make me wonder when people start using " you people"
What would you say if GSS set up a company and gave all the work you were flying to them? I would imagine you would have strong feelings on the matter. Let's hope that doesn't happen to "you people".

This industry really does beggar belief at times. We are all in the same union but we tear at each others throats like wild dogs when we see an advantage. You don't see train drivers wishing away the jobs of their colleagues. I really do wish that the minority of BA pilots who seem to think they are entitled to everything and more would just now and again look at themselves and see just how good their deal is when compared to the rest of the UK aviation sector.

The best rosters, pay, pensions, conditions and in effect guaranteed command providing you don't actually punch the chief pilot in the car park. And just as a nice little bonus, the chance for an early 747 left seat that really belongs to someone else. And its still not enough for some is it?

I really don't want to have a go at anyone but why not take a little look around out of your privileged little bubble now and again and give thanks for just how fortunate you really are.

And before someone starts in about BA work etc, if memory serves, Cityflyer at LCY operate BA flights in BA liveried aircraft. How many commands are you entitled to there? Flybe operate BA flights in the regions, should they all loose their jobs as well?

Apologies for the thread drift but there are still one or two issues that get right up my left nostril, even at my advanced age. I pay the same subs to the same union as the BA crews and I get very peed off when they start demanding that my job is actually theirs. Thank god I can retire in a few years. I love flying and I like the company I work for but this industry is the most selfish, self centered screwed up hell I have ever come across.

Rant over. I'm off to walk the dog. Have a nice day.

Zeddb......nobody wants your job.....I just wish BA wouldn't subcontract its freight work out. What would you say if GSS starting subcontracting the work you fly then came back to you asking for money as there isn't enough revenue in the business?
All I ask is BA work is flown by pilots working for BA.
For what it is worth, my personal view on the secondments is that the secondees should be paid mainline rates for the work and not the GSS scales. All we are doing is lowering the rate for the job.

OK Hunterboy, but the world isn't what we might wish it should be. I'd like world peace, nuclear fusion and an end to disease as well but I have to live with things as they actually are. Otherwise I'd start reading the Grauniad and wringing my hands and wailing.

Then we would have two different payscales for the same job. Not the route to harmonious industrial relations methinks. Plus they would never leave and give someone else a go. And who could blame them.

Be far better if we were all on the BA rate but see wishful thinking above.

No argument there but that is the tone being set right across the industry. You would be better having a pop at the locos or pay to fly. That's where the rot started.

The dog says hi by the way.

Zeddb

Day off
Advancing years
Walking the dog

I love working out who's who!

I was rumbled the other day by another detective!

ATB!! :):)

I was at GSS in the early days
I decided to leave
More than doubled my income with more days off and a guaranteed BCL seat so no comparison
Financially, working 5 years for present company is like working more than 10 years in GSS
I think "yours aye" legacy for the poor T & C's etc