The Secondee issue is made very clear when an offer is made. If you believe that makes one unfit for command, then maybe you should get out more.

The job is fairly easy, nice aircraft, nice people, chance of getting on, training positions open to all regardless of seat and decent hotels for the most part.
Lots of days off too.

Personally, I can retire whenever I feel like but carry on because I find it agreeable.

Not too many airlines like that these days. If the whole concept offends, don't join or look elsewhere.

Z

'But IMO, any pilot who see the secondments as morally acceptable and normal business practice, probably lacks the backbone to be a commander anyway'

Blimey, that's pretty harsh. At the end of the day, this business isn't fair. The BA-Dan Air, BA-Caledonian, BA-Citiflyer arrangements still leave a sour taste with many people but we just have to get over it and move on.

I understand the secondee arrangement is sensitive but that's the way things are. If BA suddenly opened up a handful of -400 commands for GSS fos, I'm sure you'd take it or would it be against your morals?

GSS morale misery
 

Oh come on. That's purely hypothetical! In your latter example we all know that's never going to happen. BAWC have always known that they have GSS by the balls and can squeeze them whenever they feel like it.

Okeedokee. I'll leave this one.

Safe flying.

Atlas Air is hiring.

I think it is pretty easy to convert over to an FAA license and the medicals are quite easy, too. So instead of paying $14,000 to fly a 74-8, why not look into coming over and actually BEING paid to do the same thing. Training pay is $1,600/month and first year min guarantee flight pay is $3,750/month.

Atlas is looking for seasoned pilots who will be decent people to fly with on a 16 hour trip. And if it is the 747 that you want, we have plenty (including -8's).

EW

If enough pilots bail out of airlines that pay poverty wages, they will get the message...

Midnight,

I'm not defending the Secondee system, I don't like it any more than anyone else but I was offered a job with the whole deal explained in writing and after thinking about it , I decided that for me, at my age and in my financial position it wasn't a deal breaker. Others thought differently and maybe didn't join but I wasn't all on my lonesome on the induction course and quite a few others joined in the months following. Should recruitment restart, I very much doubt that there will be difficulty in attracting candidates. The actual number of secondees is not that great and as BA expand and commands/A380/787 slots come around, I wouldn't expect the total numbers to increase dramatically even if faces change.

Quite why the decision that I and quite a few others made renders us spineless and unfit for command I don't understand. The GSS FO s who have been promoted and also the trainers who promoted them would beg to differ I'm sure.

As I have pointed out before and now for positively the last time, no one puts a gun to your head and forces you to join. If you don't like it, you will not be hunted down and killed should you leave. Those that stay are generally happy enough. If you prefer the desert or the locos, then fill your boots.

Atlas are of course the parent company. Several of our pilots worked for Atlas on the original B A contract before GSS was set up. Quite apart from getting an FAA licence, the day Brits can fill US flightdeck positions in the US, I shall eat my shorts, seeing as I don't have a hat to hand. I appreciate the thought though.:)

For the nth time, no one is defending the Secondee arrangement, it's just the situation that exists and you either accept it and live with it or you go elsewhere. The arrangement affects no other uk airline and what GSS pilots choose to live with or not is the business of GSS pilots and no one else. We all want commands as much as anyone else in the industry and yes we would all rather the whole business went away. It isn't going to anytime soon so everyone lives with it. Most recent commands have gone to GSS first officers, not BA ones and just about all those who joined in the first couple of years are now captains.

Once more no one appreciates being called spineless just for accepting a situation that no one can do anything about. Most would rather accept it and have a job than see the business go elsewhere, probably under the same deal due to the threat of industrial action from BA BALPA. No it isn't fair that thre BA pilots who are in the same union as we are can impose their will over our commands but there it is. If feelings were as strong as you seem to feel they should be I feel pretty certain that there would have been some sort of action by GSS members by now. There hasn't been and there is no imminent prospect of any such thing. If that offends your sense of what's right and wrong then so sorry, but I for one will not be handed sharpened bullets to fire by someone with a grievance that I don't share.

If you are a current GSS pilot and a BALPA member then feel free to make your representations to the cc. If you don't work for GSS then please refrain from passing judgement.

Once more, no it isn't right and neither is it fair but that's life. Being made redundant several times wasnt fair either but it happened. Blaming others changes nothing.

I am at a loss to understand why you think that should be so in the case of Caledonian. (I presume you mean British Caledonian.)

Ummm...how would UK, European, or other non-US citizen or non-Green Card holders be able to work for Atlas Air???

They wouldn't.

Just ask the approximately 100 Stansted-based non-US Atlas Air pilots who had their career flushed down the toilet when the base was closed for "economic reasons" in July 2009.

Unfortunately, GSS is a train set operated by Atlas and BA. Its neither the worst nor the best of jobs out there. Like any company, you need to make of it what you will...and if it doesn't suit you...leave graciously for greener pastures rather than become engulfed by the negativity of the situation.

Life will pass you by if you spend your time wishin' and hopin' that the BA secondee situation will be dis-continued.

PG

There are some of us within BA that want the secondments to end too. BA work flown by BA pilots. It wouldn't be difficult for BA to lease its own freighters and fly its own work.
Sadly, internal politics meant that GSS was set up and BA pilots work was given away. I'm guessing GSS pilots don't want to hear that though?

GSS morale misery
 

To be honest I've always wondered why BA didn't lease the aircraft directly from Atlas themselves and operate them. Especially as you already had the crew force and maintenance facilities in place for the -400? I guess there's less risk having someone else take care of the operation and therefore BAWCs costs become relatively fixed.

That and the fact that the ex 400 chief pilot saw an opportunity to make a fast buck off the back of his former colleagues.

The original British Airways Cargo operation was closed down and the B707s and brand new B747-236F sold on as it wasn't making money. Very few airlines fly a dedicated cargo fleet, most recently Delta closed down NWA Cargo.

Lufthansa Cargo was built on the shell of the old German Cargo initially, Air France Cargo is a fraction of it's former size. Had BA taken in house the cargo operation as it stands, the cost base would have been higher. Commercially it's an arms length company or nothing I think.

Do we want to see our jobs disappear? No, do you? Don't you people have enough advantages over the rest of us? Maybe you should be entitled to 50% of our salaries as we at GSS are evidently taking the food out of the mouths of your families. How about BA pilots have a percentage of all commands, everywhere? After all, any aircraft in the air could be flown by BA crews and therefore it could be argued that any operator is taking work away from BA pilots.

Sometimes I think that Waterside should be in the shape of a hollow volcano with the BA CC in the middle stroking white cats whilst plotting world domination.

Here's a radical idea, If BA decide to take the whole thing in house then the GSS pilots should be given the same deal that BMI pilots were and put onto the BA seniority list with grandfather rights at STN.

I'm guessing BA pilots don't want to hear that though?

It's not going to happen because it is far more profitable for BA to keep the whole thing at arm's length. The secondees keep the BA cc quiet, GSS pilots just get on with the job and everyone is happy, or at least relatively so.

It will be interesting to speculate what would happen to the secondee system if and when BA stop operating the 747 400. Will they pay for their FO's to be 747 8 type rated so they can have a cushty number flying cargo? I wouldn't bet my career on it.:E

It does make me wonder when people start using " you people"
What would you say if GSS set up a company and gave all the work you were flying to them? I would imagine you would have strong feelings on the matter. Let's hope that doesn't happen to "you people".

This industry really does beggar belief at times. We are all in the same union but we tear at each others throats like wild dogs when we see an advantage. You don't see train drivers wishing away the jobs of their colleagues. I really do wish that the minority of BA pilots who seem to think they are entitled to everything and more would just now and again look at themselves and see just how good their deal is when compared to the rest of the UK aviation sector.

The best rosters, pay, pensions, conditions and in effect guaranteed command providing you don't actually punch the chief pilot in the car park. And just as a nice little bonus, the chance for an early 747 left seat that really belongs to someone else. And its still not enough for some is it?

I really don't want to have a go at anyone but why not take a little look around out of your privileged little bubble now and again and give thanks for just how fortunate you really are.

And before someone starts in about BA work etc, if memory serves, Cityflyer at LCY operate BA flights in BA liveried aircraft. How many commands are you entitled to there? Flybe operate BA flights in the regions, should they all loose their jobs as well?

Apologies for the thread drift but there are still one or two issues that get right up my left nostril, even at my advanced age. I pay the same subs to the same union as the BA crews and I get very peed off when they start demanding that my job is actually theirs. Thank god I can retire in a few years. I love flying and I like the company I work for but this industry is the most selfish, self centered screwed up hell I have ever come across.

Rant over. I'm off to walk the dog. Have a nice day.

Zeddb......nobody wants your job.....I just wish BA wouldn't subcontract its freight work out. What would you say if GSS starting subcontracting the work you fly then came back to you asking for money as there isn't enough revenue in the business?
All I ask is BA work is flown by pilots working for BA.
For what it is worth, my personal view on the secondments is that the secondees should be paid mainline rates for the work and not the GSS scales. All we are doing is lowering the rate for the job.

OK Hunterboy, but the world isn't what we might wish it should be. I'd like world peace, nuclear fusion and an end to disease as well but I have to live with things as they actually are. Otherwise I'd start reading the Grauniad and wringing my hands and wailing.

Then we would have two different payscales for the same job. Not the route to harmonious industrial relations methinks. Plus they would never leave and give someone else a go. And who could blame them.

Be far better if we were all on the BA rate but see wishful thinking above.

No argument there but that is the tone being set right across the industry. You would be better having a pop at the locos or pay to fly. That's where the rot started.

The dog says hi by the way.

Zeddb

Day off
Advancing years
Walking the dog

I love working out who's who!

I was rumbled the other day by another detective!

ATB!! :):)

I was at GSS in the early days
I decided to leave
More than doubled my income with more days off and a guaranteed BCL seat so no comparison
Financially, working 5 years for present company is like working more than 10 years in GSS
I think "yours aye" legacy for the poor T & C's etc