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Asiana 747F missing?
It is being reported on Anet that an Asiana 747 F is missing apparently on a flight from ICN to Shanghai.
The only news link so far is in Korean, which I can't read, and google translate makes a bit of a mess of it ( although the gist of it seems to tie in with what the poster said. Has anyone else heard anything? edited to add: there are now unconfirmed reports that wreckage and an oil slick have been sighted.:( |
(URGENT) Asiana Airlines' cargo plane crashes in waters off Jeju Island
here (URGENT) Asiana Airlines' cargo plane crashes in waters off Jeju Island | YONHAP NEWS |
Here the report with text:
Asiana Airlines cargo plane crashes off Jeju | YONHAP NEWS A/C departed at 03:05 a.m. from Incheon bound for Pudong. |
Reg - HL7604:(
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MSNBC is reporting that the Captain was 51 and First Officer 44. No names.
S. Korean cargo jet crashes; 2 dead - World news - Asia-Pacific - msnbc.com |
Fire on-board.
AFP: Two dead as cargo plane crashes off South Korea |
This has got to stop. Why is nothing being done about this!! How are we certifying aircraft without fire suppression on the main decks of these aircraft! IALPA needs to start serious lobbying. As long as 'only' freighters are affected, nothing will change. Why do I even bother reading a NOTOC with 20 tonnes of batteries? Its an uncontrollable bomb that I'm 'hoping' doesn't detonate.
Rant over. IB |
I totally agree. As long as it's ONLY CARGO AND ONLY 2 ''ANONYMOUS'' PILOTS who gives a damn, right? I do believe that Fedex is one of rare airlines that does have fire ext on the main deck of MD11, not sure about other ac in their fleet.
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Asiana has issued this quite detailed press release:
July 27, 2011 OZ Flight 991 Press Release 1. Accident Details A. Time: July 28, 2011 (Thu.) 04:11 AM B. Location: Approximately 76 miles southwest of CJU Airport. C. Flight: OZ991 (ICN-PVG) Departure Time: 02:47 AM, Estimated Time of Arrival: 04:33 AM D. Crew - Captain: Sang-Gi Choi (Born: January 25, 1959) - Employed at Asiana since July 2, 1991 - Assigned to B747 since July 3, 2001 - 6,896 hours of flight time in B747 - 14,123 hours of total flight time - Co-pilot: Jeong-Woong Lee (Born: August 12, 1967) - Employed at Asiana since April 2, 2007 - Assigned to B747 since November 4, 2010 - 492 hours of flight time in B747 - 5,211 hours of total flight time E. Freight: 58 Tons - Freight Contents: More than 90% of the freight was standard cargo and IT products. The remainder was comprised of liquids (e.g., paint, resin solution, etc.) - All cargo was loaded in accordance with IATA regulations. F. Aircraft Specifications - Registration Number/Aircraft Type: HL7604/B747-400F - Owner: AAR - Manufacturer: BOEING - Manufacture Date: 2006.02.15. - Operational Date: 2006.02.23 G. Details - At 04:11 AM (Korea Standard Time) flight OZ991 reported control problems at an altitude of 7600 feet and was diverted to CJU when contact was lost with the aircraft. - 04:11KST – Contact is lost with the aircraft at 7,600 feet when it reports control problems and is diverted to CJU. - 04:15KST – Contact initiated by Republic of Korea Coast Guard and Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) JetPhotos.Net Photo » HL7604 (CN: 29907) Asiana Cargo Boeing 747-48EF(SCD) by Rufenach [www.fraspotting.de] |
"The plane carried 58 tonnes of cargo, including 0.4 tonnes of potentially risky materials such as lithium batteries, paint, amino acid solution and synthetic resin, he said."
Pretty much says it all right there. LI batteries need to be banned from all aircraft until such time that they devise a way to inert them for shipment. |
As long as a/c can be insured when carrying lithium batteries etc then they will continue to be shipped by air..unfortuneately no one gives a damm about freight pilots ...'safety is our first priority' yeh right !
Unless one happens to crash on a major city causing hundreds of casualties:ugh: |
It's really hard to ban all the Li-ion battery in the air transport. Right now, most electronic devices containing Li-ion battery as a complete package and need to be transportted by air. The cargo carrier will not say NO to such bussiness even few aircraft accidents happened which Li-ion battery is involved, e.g. UPS accident in Dubai,2009 and the Asiana accident today. The big boss of cargo carrier has to secure the business unless all the cargo carriers say NO.
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Guy's the fire suppresion debate is interesting as it is not even mandated in EU registered pax aircraft I looked into this when I was a QA consultant for a well known Dutch MRO and it became clear that aircraft of a certain vintage (think F100 age) did not have to have either smoke detectors or fire suppresion systems in the lower baggage holds! it was a situation that I found incredible even after more than 30 years in this business some things just astound you as IMO all aircraft either pax or cargo should be mandated to have both.
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Perhaps improve the packaging..
LipoSack Fire Retarding Lithium Polymer Battery Charging & Storage Safety Bag |
Condolences to the collegues and their families...
It would be interesting to know if the batteries were carried in the main deck (like in the UPS crash) or if they were in one of the class C compartments and even the fire extiguishers were not enough to put the fire out. If that's the case, lithium batteries should be banned until another way of packing them or different fire extiguishers are tested and certified. |
DMN,
Currently MD-11 only. First 777 installation currently in progress (N858FD) |
Post no.8
Fire on-board. |
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If that's the case, lithium batteries should be banned until another way of packing them or different fire extiguishers are tested and certified. |
There is no hard eveidence on the cause of the crash, or even any confirmation that lithium batteries were part of the cargo, yet everyone has jumped to the conclusion that lithium batteries were the cause.
To my knowledge there has not yet been an incident involving lithium batteries in cargo that were prepared in compliance with the regulations. All of the lithium battery incidents to date involving cargo shipments have been as a result of untested batteries or badly prepared packages where the battery terminals could short causing a fire. So how about we wait to see what comes out of the investigation, or is that expecting too much?? |
DGR, AFP are reporting lithium batteries as part of the cargo. It is reported in the thread above.
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DGR , respectfully , when something in your safe , earth based office could go BOOM and kill you and your desk and chair I am sure you would want that item removed too. We don`t care how it`s packed , just get it off the damn aircraft.
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How are we certifying aircraft without fire suppression on the main decks of these aircraft! IALPA needs to start serious lobbying. As long as 'only' freighters are affected, nothing will change. Once they go that's pretty much it, they require no external oxygen to burn and will resist just about all attempts to extinguish them. IF (!) an uncontrollable battery fire indeed was the cause of this accident, then IMHO perhaps the handling, storage, packaging and transporting of electronic devices with Lithium batteries should be reviewed, not the fire fighting/suppression equipment. |
The Ap is reporting that the captian yelled fire. Is that enough evidence of a fire?
Official: Pilot on crashed South Korean cargo plane reported fire in final moments By Associated Press, Published: July*27 | Updated: Thursday, July*28, 3:33*AM SEOUL, South Korea — A pilot aboard an Asiana Airlines cargo plane that crashed Thursday in waters off a southern South Korean resort island reported a fire just before losing contact with air traffic workers, an official said. The pilot yelled “Cargo fire!” and “Emergency!” about 10 minutes before the plane disappeared from radar screens, according to an air traffic official who declined to be named because the investigation was ongoing. Official: Pilot on crashed South Korean cargo plane reported fire in final moments - The Washington Post |
ditch
Sad news.
If it turns out to be a replay of the UPS6 crash, it means we have not learned from it - a lost opportunity. A thought; if you have a true cargofire (not a false warning, but with real noticeable smoke), the airplane is a write off from that very moment. Even if you land it within minutes, it will almost certainly burn out. So there's no need to save the plane, just it's occupants. If there's not an airport in the immediate vicinity, put it on any flat piece of land or ditch it. 17 minutes is the average survivable time with a cargo or cabin fire. Anything over that and you're on borrowed time. |
"Put it on a flat piece of land or ditch it."
Have to agree with Mariner. Ditch it as quickly as possible. In fact, since the Hudson river splash, ditching (both time available and minimum time available) has been included in our cyclical sim program.
Maggot |
Well, ditching could be an option, but don't forget that land on a river during daylight with nice weather is one thing, ditching a B747 into Pacific on the dark and with smoke in the cockpit is completely different, little chance of surviving...
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You have 15-17 minutes
After having read the available albeit limited information so far,
the following relies on memory so those of you with charts may have more accurate distances. 1. They were in contact with Shanghai Control when the fire was detected. 2. This means they were past FIR Boundary waypoint LAMEN. LAMEN is 150 nm from ZSPD ( Shanghai - Pudong ) 3. Even if they were exactly at LAMEN they were 210 nm ( via airways) to RKPC (Jeju) 4. Therefore it seems they did not divert to the nearest airport - no idea of WX/ NOTAMS at the relevant airports. 5. They reported control problems at 7600' i.e. Less than 5 mins to landing in an emergency. I haven't flown the B744 in years but I remember some control cables run along the roof of the cargo compartment. 6. I acknowledge that emergency diversions into mainland China are not an attractive proposition and that Jeju was an online and probably maintenance base for OZ but IF(!) the above assumptions are true then once again all these cargo fire incidents say that you must have the airplane on the ground or water in 15-17 mins.. 7. Not trying to to be a Monday morning quarter back and second guess the Captain as I wasn't there. Condolences to the families |
Sully was very very lucky, I reckon the odds of surviving ditching at night on open water are pretty slim actually.. I say ban Lithium now and wait for the investigation.
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Had a chat with a few colleagues. Ditching an aircraft in the middle of the Atlantic or the Pacific is almost a death sentence. If you even survive the ditching, you will now face the prospect of drowning or freezing or starving in the middle of the huge ocean.
We threw around some ideas and one of the ideas was to stay up high, depressurize the aircraft (if main deck fire, as per the checklist), and PRAY that the fire will go out from lack of oxygen. Like I said, in the middle of the ocean, you must be very lucky to have an airfield within 17 minutes. Even then, Asiana lost contact within 11 minutes. |
Starving???
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A thought; if you have a true cargofire (not a false warning, but with real noticeable smoke), the airplane is a write off from that very moment. Even if you land it within minutes, it will almost certainly burn out. So there's no need to save the plane, just it's occupants. If there's not an airport in the immediate vicinity, put it on any flat piece of land or ditch it. 17 minutes is the average survivable time with a cargo or cabin fire. Anything over that and you're on borrowed time. Investigating the cause of the fire (uncontrollable battery fire or not), decision making, finding suitable terrain/water and subsequent ditching from a normal 744 cruising level within 17 minutes would be totally unrealistic IMHO. |
Well yeah, I am gonna grab that bottle of mineral water before jumping off! :ok:
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I wonder if the presence of a suitably trained loadmaster would make any difference to a main deck lithium fire - if he got to it quick enough.
Thoughts? |
If it was lithium batteries then they must go the same way as chemical oxygen generators.
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Put your old laptop- or mobile battery on a BBQ and see what happens. It's a hellfire - better than magnesium.
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They reported control problems at 7600' i.e. Less than 5 mins to landing in an emergency I know that's what the airline said, but I wonder if they meant 7,600m given that it's Chinese airspace. Doesn't make sense to be down at 7,600ft halfway to Shanghai. |
Sounds like the UPS. As you descend into thicker air the fire turns violent.
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overmars....
Had a chat with a few colleagues. Ditching an aircraft in the middle of the Atlantic or the Pacific is almost a death sentence. If you even survive the ditching, you will now face the prospect of drowning or freezing or starving in the middle of the huge ocean. We threw around some ideas and one of the ideas was to stay up high, depressurize the aircraft (if main deck fire, as per the checklist), and PRAY that the fire will go out from lack of oxygen. The B747s that I'm flying are equipped with life rafts. With today's GPS position accuracy, rescue services would find your ELT equipped, bobbing life raft before you'd "starve to death." During an over ocean uncontrolled fire I will not pray; I will make a controlled ditching after 15min emergency descent while I can still read some instruments ...BEFORE being completely smoked out and subject to an uncontrolled crash. :ooh: |
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