First off, not everyone as you have pretty much imply is defending CargoJet on AVCANADA , yes at first when most of us thought it was one flight and that was the end of it when CJ pilots told management not to do this anymore.

Now that it's been made clear that flights have continued and no one can say they don't know whats going on anymore, I would take another look at the site. Just as anywhere especially with a site like Avcanada which is one of the most active aviation sites in the world, there will be people with differing opinions and that debate is welcome. Aviation Top 1000 - the most popular aviation sites one the net

I would encourage more of you to post on their not just a drive by post calling them SCABS wich serves no one.

CargoJet
 

Just saw them ( CARGOJET) at the Amerijet ramp getting reloaded. Plus a Russian type aircraft next to it. Everyone one know's the guy's are struggling for all in aviation related work. GOOD LUCK!:) The time was Sept 04 ,2009 at1600Z.

Just got word that CargoJet is NOT Flying for AmeriJet, they are flying for the freight forwarders that usually contract AmeriJet.

So picking up this work was a result of Freight Forwarders scrambling to find a way to move there goods and keep their business going and continue to provide service to their customers while their regular provider couldn't haul their goods.

That's the goods folks don't shoot the messenger :ok:.

Still sucks though and hope Amerijets Pilots get a fair deal soon.

What is the difference
 

"ScudRunner08 Just got word that CargoJet is NOT Flying for AmeriJet, they are flying for the freight forwarders that usually contract AmeriJet.

So picking up this work was a result of Freight Forwarders scrambling to find a way to move there goods and keep their business going and continue to provide service to their customers while their regular provider couldn't haul their goods".

This is a common tactic during a strike, the freight is still AmeriJet freight.
You call it what you will but this is still scab flying!

The difference ?
 

It's a freight forwarder's job to move boxes from A to B no matter what, it isn't a tactic. If the carrier of choice is struck, find another, if there's enough volume, charter a plane, it's just business.
Or do you call it a tactic when SLF and their travel agents attempt to find alternate ways to reach their destinations when their carrier is struck and they're stranded ?

I think striking employees should not be replaced and picket lines not crossed, but I also think customers have the right to make other arrangements.

When a freight forwarder FF contracts airline A to move freight, the freight becomes A's freight.

If A is now not able to move the freight and subcontracts another airline B, it still remains A's freight that is now also B's freight.
If FF contracts airline C instead of airline A, it is no longer A's freight but it is now C's freight.

That is the difference, even if the freight comes from the same forwarder FF and moves out of the same warehouse.

My support still goes with the Amerijet Crews.

The Difference
 

TheWanderer "When a freight forwarder FF contracts airline A to move freight, the freight becomes A's freight. If A is now not able to move the freight BECAUSE THEY ARE ON STRIKE! and subcontracts another airline B, it still remains A's freight".

Period.

The other airlines, truckers, trains etc. can try and justify moving AmeriJet's freight anyway they like. Struck freight is struck freight, anyone that comes to Miami and moves that freight are scabs!

And I am not an AmeriJet pilot, I fly for one of their competitors. But I am a UNION pilot and I stand behind my brothers and sisters.

The idea of a strike is to put an economic hardship on the company to compel them to negotiate a contract with you. If "Amerijets cargo" is moving on another aircraft and they are still deriving a profit then that is struck freight and should not be moved. If the freight forwarders are simply moving their product on another airline that is fine, the strike is doing what it is intended to do. The question that needs to be answered before you call someone a scab is "Did Amerijet make money off of this flight?"

You are wrong on 2 counts:

1. You misquoted Wanderer and inserted your own commentary as his quote.

2. Amerijet does not "have" any freight that has not been consigned to it.

Freight is consigned to airlines by freight forwarders. "Struck freight" would include freight already consigned to Amerijet but not yet delivered at the time of the strike. Can you identify any such cargo?

Unless a forwarder has an EXCLUSIVE contract with a particular airline, that forwarder can choose any airline he wants for any load or portion thereof. The freight does not "belong to" any airline until it is consigned to that airline.

After the strike started, if a forwarder who usually consigns freight to Amerijet decides to use another airline for subsequent freight, that freight does NOT belong to Amerijet and is NOT "struck freight."

Sematics
 

1. You misquoted Wanderer and inserted your own commentary as his quote.

For effect only

2. Amerijet does not "have" any freight that has not been consigned to it.

Freight is consigned to airlines by freight forwarders. "Struck freight" would include freight already consigned to Amerijet but not yet delivered at the time of the strike. Can you identify any such cargo?

Unless a forwarder has an EXCLUSIVE contract with a particular airline, that forwarder can choose any airline he wants for any load or portion thereof. The freight does not "belong to" any airline until it is consigned to that airline.

After the strike started, if a forwarder who usually consigns freight to Amerijet decides to use another airline for subsequent freight, that freight does NOT belong to Amerijet and is NOT "struck freight."

See the title of the post. You call it what ever you want. The rest is B.S. and you know it! The freight was going on AmeriJet if they were flying right.
I am not saying that the freight forwarder should suffer a financil impact because of the srtike. But if there was a contract with AmeriJet to move the freight, then the freight is AmeriJet's. And if the AmeriJet managment is still making a profit off of the movement even if it is not on an

Sematics
 

1. You misquoted Wanderer and inserted your own commentary as his quote.

For effect only

2. Amerijet does not "have" any freight that has not been consigned to it.

Freight is consigned to airlines by freight forwarders. "Struck freight" would include freight already consigned to Amerijet but not yet delivered at the time of the strike. Can you identify any such cargo?

Unless a forwarder has an EXCLUSIVE contract with a particular airline, that forwarder can choose any airline he wants for any load or portion thereof. The freight does not "belong to" any airline until it is consigned to that airline.

After the strike started, if a forwarder who usually consigns freight to Amerijet decides to use another airline for subsequent freight, that freight does NOT belong to Amerijet and is NOT "struck freight."

See the title of the post. You call it what ever you want. The rest is B.S. and you know it!

The freight was going on AmeriJet if they were flying right. I am not saying that the freight forwarder should suffer a financil impact because of the srtike. But if there was a contract with AmeriJet to move the freight, then the freight is AmeriJet's. And if AmeriJet is still making a profit off of the movement even if it is not on an AmeriJet aircraft, it is wrong.

:ok::DAll my support and GO FOR IT. Ex Cargo Pilot. Good Luck Ya All......

It matters little what the semantics are. CargotJet is sitting on AJT's ramp, getting freight loaded from AJT's warehouse, using AJT trucks, K-loaders, etc. If you people want to splice hairs, knock yourselves out. YOU WILL NOT CONVINCE THE IBT, APA, or ALPA. Take your lawyers and litigate all you want, you will still be on our list. CargoJet will always be remembered for their actions.

There have been several references to the pilots flying for Cargojet being "banned" or "blacklisted" What effect do you think being on some "blacklist" is going to have on them?

Yeah if you like working ln a sty
 

Is this the system you use it home? Saves money on plumbing and having the septic tank pumped once in a while! I've had the pleasure of working for operators who felt a camping toilet on a 30 hour double crew duty day with a mechanic and loader was okay. Try it some time.

Any wonder why this career path is on the decline?

Best of luck Amerijet!!!!!!!!

Amerijet Strike makes CNN International
 

And the subject is?

Where do the pilots go to the bathroom.

From the Land of the Morning Calm.

Zero

lol who's litigating who? please explain this part of your reply :confused:

Here's a question: Lets say in two years CargoJets pilots vote to Unionized what happens then, ALPA etc says no? What would they do? What if I told you there was an effort that collapsed at CJ to join a Union in the past.

AJT spend a good amount of time explaining to the pilots that there is no such legal term as a scab. Fine, say what you what about CargoJet's activities, but it make no difference in the USA. These are individual pilots who chose to move that freight, none of them will be welcome at an American carrier that is unionized. Game, set, match. Try convincing a hiring board that you were just moving a freight forwarder's cargo, they will laugh you out of the room.

Do you really believe that anyone cares...except perhaps a few of the dupes in the respective unions?

Management wins nearly every time....especially in todays economic climate.
Striking pilots lose...nearly every time.

NB.
Now, if I was in AJI management I would have left the lavs in...keep the troops happy, collect profits.
Simple concept.

It's too bad that you let your emotions override reality and common sense...

A while back, someone from an "American carrier that is unionized" chose to post a list here of people HE decided to label as $c@b$, without ANY support from his union. The union leader was later forced to repudiate the list and apologize for the person's unwarranted actions.

Don't let that happen to you. Don't put a label on someone that you don't understand -- especially as volatile label as this. You and your airline will suffer for it if you do.

Only an opinion....
 

Fr8Dog,

Can you see the parallels with passenger ops???. If airline "X" went on strike, and passengers then went with airline "Y", ( who saw increased load and profits) would you call them "scabs"?. Yes or no?.

I can see the argument that IF Amerijet mngmt reaps a continuing profit by subcontracting their consigned freight, that that to me would signal that those who move it were "crossing the line". If however, the Freightforwarders moved the load to a different mover, and Amerijet was out of the loop so to say, that "mover" would be without sin. ( the same as in passenger operations, yes?).



I applaud your desire to see Amerijet Pilots come out of this quickly and with better working conditions, but your not going to win any arguments with just rhetoric.

I wonder why the "Freight Forwarders" had to go all the way to Canada
to find a replacement carrier, when all they had to do was look across
the ramp at MIA, Centurion, UPS, Florida West. I'm sure they all would
have loved to have the extra business. Hell, even Cargo Air Transport
is in the same state.

Flightaware shows a few Tradewinds flights as canceled. Were they contracted to fly the freight but backed out?

call it however you see it, but if you are on the MIA ramp and moving freight that is "new" to your ops, then pull your head out and ask yourself if it smells right!!! many unions and airlines are supporting AJT and EVERYONE should honor the cause and the line. just remember that it could be you, or me or anyone needing the support. if it is covered in black, then assume it is struck cargo and do the right thing and refuse to fly it. if all else fails, look at the shipping documents, they should tell the real story.

EXACTLY!!!

You will likely find NOTHING on any shipping documents any more that identifies ANY freight as "Amerijet" freight!

The ONLY exception is cargo already consigned to Amerijet when the strike began, and has not yet moved.

Only an opinion
 

Not going to waste my time anymore, I am tired of :ugh:

Those of us that have been there and seen the aircraft being loaded with AmeriJet trucks and equipment know better.

FR8

Happy L-38? Thanks for the tip, was wondering how to do that, thanx

As long as freight is not moving on Amerijet that is what matters.

Regarding the passenger industry (And cargo), if any pilot group had the balls all Pilot's would stop and not cross a picket line and instead turnaround and return to the hotel. When off duty, all pilots and crewmembers should take-up picket signs and jump in to support their fellow union brothers and provide donations to their cause.

How quickly would that bring the industry to it's knees if all groups were to lend mutual and financial support? If that were the case how long would a strike last, hours perhaps minutes?

And all it would take is for one major US airport to shutdown due to a picket line. The precedent to use in this case is that the crews did not feel safe crossing the picket line. The company's will seek alternative methods of getting crews accross the lines, but they can say no and that they feel unsafe crossing any picket line. Hell if they do cross the line maybe an example is required? Imagine what their companies would thing if their crews get that same support in the future?

If the cargo has no ride out of dodge the pressure mounts on all service providers.
If the passengers have no ride out of dodge **** hits the fan!

As for Cargojet crossing the line maybe you need to reconsider what you are doing to your career. Do you jumpseat? Do you have any hope of working for another airline, I somehow doubt that this will be a career move for you at Cargojet. Think about what you are doing to your industry and stop flying struck freight! The best thing any Cargojet pilot can do is get out of your airplane and join the picket lines on your next flight into Miami.

Pilot's have the power they simply fail to use it.

Scab = no job at Union carrier
 

Scud runner08:

You say being on the scab list means nothing.

ALPA Canada represents 8 carriers in Canada if I remember correctly. Good luck to any Cargojet folks who try to climb the aviation ladder to get a job at any of those carriers if their name is on that list. I'm not sure what ties the IBT have in Canadian aviation, but rest assured that the names of the damned will be known to all who matter if a job is concerned.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I think it bad business for everyone to take customers hostages. Do all you can to keep freight from flying on Amerijet, or in a way that brings revenues to Amerijet, but do not punish customers for finding alternatives that have nothing to do with Amerijet, because if you do, customers eventually find out and become ex-customers for life, and absolutely no one wins!

Are you going to refuse transport to a pax who buys a new ticket because his carrier is struck ? Why is a box different ? Why should the shipper be punished for getting another carrier ?

Is Amerijet in the habit of doing handling for other carriers ? If not, I agree it is fishy, even if it is set up by a freight forwarder. If yes, then CargoJet is guilty of a particularly bad choice of handler.

hey i dont mind i'll poop in a bag can i join amerijet?

Poop in a bag!
 

Why, are you willing to cross a picket line?

What makes you think that ALPA has ANY say in who is hired at ANY carrier?

Are the laws that different in Canada, that they allow a company to maintain a "scab list" and screen potential hires from it? Somehow, I think not!

YES!
 

Yes, I'll cross. I'll poop in a bag and work 15 hour days. Or poop for 15 hours a day and work in a bag. Either way.

Sadly, the days of ALPA taking care of their own, have turned more into seeing how large they can fill their own coffers. (ready, aim, fire!) Unions are a necessary evil, but they certainly are not doing now what they were designed to do years ago. (ready, aim, fire!) Big unions are not out for your best interest, trust me on that one, especially if you are a bottom feeder carrier. Too bad self representation can't be for all.

The "good ole' days" are gone. Better luck getting a group of truckers or cabbies coming together for a common goal than aviators. We all talk big though.

Scab lists lose their potency in 4-5 years anyway, except for those diehards. And there certainly isn't going to be any upswing in the industry for at least that. Sad, but true. In these trying times, one can't blame folks for feeding their family. Unless of course we could all see the same page and reclaim our profession. What a great concept.

Best of luck to all involved.

Hmmm, well it certainly did not deter pilots at Continental (years ago) who crossed the picket line...in fact they all were accepted into APLO later on...:}

ALPA, APA, IFALPA, etc...paper tigers.:rolleyes:

411A
 

Well said!:)

alpa
 

ALPA -

Can't live with 'em..

Can't live without 'em...


You just can't divorce this one guys. Take the bag and poop. Nuff said.

Cargojet is considered the top of the ladder for a lot of its employees, a career job. To be flying on a '67 there you would have to be fairly senior. Have you checked the starting wages for any of those ALPA carriers in Canada? Moving to practically any other airline in Canada would be a serious step backwards and a 30 - 40% pay cut. I don't think this list is too much of a worry for these people.

The threats and intimidation, instead of educating and dialogue, will definitely bring people in line with your point of view.

Keep up the good work. :ugh:
DW

you boys make me laugh. Talk all your stupid nonsense, I will be waiting for you in Miami Springs to educate you on what happens to scabs who cross the picket line here at MIA. I am so f*****g tired of your bs. Come and discuss any position you have on our picket line, we will assign a position for you in our mud puddle. We are not kidding. We sent patrols down to SDQ, POS, and other places to meet and discuss our issues with you, I will gaurantee you, you will not like to hear or find out our non-humble opinion as to what happens to strike-breakers in the good ole USA. Bring some muscle. This is no joke, my friends.