Lockheed Electra
 

Our company has the opportunity to purchase 4 Lockheed L188 freighters, and we just might put 'em to work, if certain conditions are met.

Does anyone have the typical fuel consumption in climb and cruise?
Also, max payload would be helpful.

Just might be able to put a few crews to work if the numbers pan out...especially fuel cost.

Call Atlantic Airlines in Coventry UK, I think they operate Electras

You can email them at [email protected]

They currently operate 6 examples of the L188 here in Europe.

:ok: From what I can remember they will burn approx. 3000 to 4000 lbs an hour at cruise (average total) and can carry nearly 40,000 lbs of cargo.
Still one of my favorite aircraft and will fly for ever if they are maintained.
If you don't stay on top of the maintenance they will kick your butt. They are not hard to maintain but again don't let them get ahead of you.

Two crew or three crew?

Forget,

As far as I know, the 2 man crew is a UK CAA dispensation, not sure if the FAA ever bought into it.

No, the FAA never did.
In FAA-land, three FD crew, minimum.

See 'Reeve Illusion'. Don't ask.

With a typical load the fuel burn was 5000Lb for the first hour and 4000Lb for each hour after that.

I have to agree with all that Lowrider says, it is still the best airliner that I have flown for the pure pleasure of hand flying.

Thanks for the info, folks.
We have sent out our tech rep to have a look at the aircraft, and he is an Electra maintenance expert, from the ONA days....long ago.

*ONA, Overseas National Airways, a very long time Electra operator.
They made a pile of dough with these airplanes....perhaps, in these times of higher fuel costs, they can be put back to work, earning their keep.
Sure hope so.
Find a niche...and fill it.:ok:

Two crew Electra's, they must be crazy! They are were not designed to fly without a FE.

Correct. Then they were re-designed to fly without a FE.

I've seen Atlantic Electras are 2-crew with modified cockpit. Is that a 3-rd party STC, not Lockheed?

Do these planes have Hamilton Standard props or Aero Products Props?

There is an outfit in Jacksonville Florida called Merc Air I believe, that is run by Don Deyo who still does maintenance on Electra's and would be my choice to evaluate the aircraft. He still conducts training courses on the aircraft and overhauls parts.

411A,,
Is the proposed ops in the U.S.? There may be a market for it.
Drop me a line as I have a few ideas on the matter.
I am a Logistics, Transportation consultant in my spare time.
SFD.

Errrr....

by "2 crew" I hope he means Captain and Flight Engineer...

anything else would be, well, silly.

Cheers...FD...:mad:

PM's
 

Hey 411a check your PM's. I will come fly for you tmo.

A Google map search of KYIP (perhaps should be renamed KRIP) shows a bunch of Electras lined up with several DC8s - Zantop logo type. Bet they have the information you're after although at the current rate of bankruptcy Zantop may well have gone the way of the dinosaur should the picture not be somewhat recent.

Edit: After a second look, one of the DC8s is a cannibalized TransCon and some of the the Electras are missing engines and props. It would seem that the grim reaper of economic viability has left his mark and that Google has photographed a boneyard.

Flight DetentErrrr....surely you mean Captain and Second Officer? Anything else would be, well, totally redundant.

I totally agree with flight detent, it's suicide to fly an Electra without FE!

Aeroguy757777, Will your third and subsequent ( :uhoh: ) posts make such edifying reading?

Wouldn't say it was suicide to fly an Electra with 2 crew, they can always take a flask of tea with them.

electras
 

Quite often seen at Stansted Essex UK, on the alphas cargo stands, used for mail runs, great planes they sometimes need an airstart to get them going.

Well, what a machine! I spent 7 years flying around Europe in it- it's the best handling machine I've flown so far.
To chuck in my two pence worth - our company used 100lbs per minute in the climb. In the cruise, assuming a max take-off weight of 116000lbs, fuel burn started at 5000lbs per hour decreasing by approx 200lbs per each flying hour thereafter with an endurance of up to 9 hours.

Max payload obviously depended on the dry operating weight of each airframe but max payload is generally considered to be 32000lbs (14.5 metric tons)

Regarding the 2 crew operation - Lockheed originally designed it to be operated by 2 crew, ie captain and first/second officer, but the unions in the USA at the time wouldn't allow it so Lockheed had to give the FEs a job hence a 3 crew op.

Airspray Canada were the first company to operate the Electra with 2 crew as the Canadian CAA were the first to approve it. Based on that, the UK CAA also allowed it to happen. The modification is simply to duplicate a couple of circuit breakers near the captain so that he can operate them in accordance with any abnormal check-list that requires it.

From my experience, having an FE in the middle seat can cause problems with CRM issues.

Aeroguy757777, you're on! :uhoh:

CRM issues with a FE, you need to tell your boss to hire some proper FE's. They have saved and will save many pilots lives. Most pilots have a very limited knowledge about the aircraft they're flying and a good FE will keep them out of trouble.

2 crew Electras?
 

Here we go again......

:ugh:

3 Man crew
 

My experience of 3 man crew ops and CRM issues is true.

Nobody wants to be first to take a piss because he KNOWS the other two are going to talk about him!

Single pilot ops is best - the skipper flying with all his mates :)

Two crew Electra's are just fine 98% of the time but when the work load is high and a technical problem rears it's head you are going to need the engineer or things will get forgotten. As we all know that is when accidents happen.

It is interesting that two of the three UK opperators did not take away the flight engineer when they could have saved a lot of money by doing so, I can only conclude that they had flight safety reasons for doing so.

As to the comment about the FE being the sorce of CRM problems, this is one of the strangest comments that I have seen on these pages over the years, I would love to see the hard evidence to back up that statement.

This really is just raking up old previously discussed issues - search back for the Electra at Cologne thread for the full debate. Suffice to say, the Canadians allowed 2 crew operation first in arguably more challenging flying situations that Atlantic's. The FAA, UK CAA and Lockheed were all involved in the planning and implementation of Atlantic's 2 crew STC.

There is always an argument for the 3rd person on the flightdeck - however in this case I can say with experience that in my opinion, 2 crew worked well - anyone who hasnt experienced it just has to understand that. I experienced both 3 and 2 crew and so I believe I am qualified to comment on the matter.

A and C,

The only remaining UK operator of the Electra is the one that has gone two crew, also think that you will find most of the serious incidents were with the 3 crew Electras operators.

"JB" I think that is because the 3 crew operaters were around much longer than the two crew and the only operation going on at this time is really the two op.

Sid starz
 

I can see your reasons for thinking that the 2 crew Electra worked well and respect your reasoned veiws, however for me the workload when things go wrong is just that little bit too high for 2 crew. I suspect it depends on how you do the risk assesment.

JennyB

Your points are not very well put and seem to be based on a rather "rose tinted" veiw of the 2 crew Electra, I suspect if you had been painted into a corner by circumstance when flying the Electra you mght be taking a more balanced veiw of the work load reqired to keep the operation safe (Sid Stars is and he seems better placed than most to comment).

I remember a vey old BA 707 skipper telling me that no on needs a Flight Engineer when things are going well but you can,t do without one when the sh1t hitts the fan!

I could be wrong but I heard somewhere what Electra was originally certified with 3-man cockpit purely due to an old FAA rule requiring FE on aircraft over 80000 lbs MTOW?

Quote CargoOne
Not without good reason apparently.
Be lucky
David

I believe that many airlines in the (a long time ago) US were operating the 737 and DC9 with FE's due to union scope clauses. How you have an FE in one of these planes is a mystery.

So, who's trying to sell their Electra's then? I would have thought the old Zantop planes had been standing for too long to be viable?

Whilst the debate `rages` about the cockpit area I would be keen to hear views from those who loaded the aircraft. Ive seen them with cargo doors fore of the wing and aft of the wing and some with both doors. Any good reasoning for this?

Curious
 

I don't think there are many left other than the six at Atlantic. Zantop or whomever is chopping up all the birds in Yipsilanti Michigan I think. The Reeve birds are all, well except one, at Air Spray. The simulator in Seattle is still being used by Atlantic. I do not think there are any pax airplanes left as I think Air Spray used them for parts. The combi at Coventry has no book/manuals for it so it sits idle. I would love to fly her but it will be tough.

YouTube - Lockheed Electra start up

For those of you that need to forget the 2/3 crew bull**** and remember how aviation used to sound :ok:

Why are the engines upside down?