MK incident at RAF base
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OneWorld22, let me just name a few operators who are NOT JAR-compliant :
Delta
American Airlines
Singapore Airlines
Cathay Pacific
Emirates
JAL
Aeroflot
South African Airways
Air Canada
Varig
LanChile
Qantas
is that enough? call CAA and ask to stop them all.
Delta
American Airlines
Singapore Airlines
Cathay Pacific
Emirates
JAL
Aeroflot
South African Airways
Air Canada
Varig
LanChile
Qantas
is that enough? call CAA and ask to stop them all.
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Minimum standards for airline operations are set by the International Civil Aviation Organisation in Annex 6 to the Chicago Convention. It is the responsibility of individual contracting states to implement those standards for airlines which have their principal place of business within their territory (the registration of the aircraft is irrelevant). JAR-OPS in the JAA's harmonised requirement for commercial air transportation and implements Annex 6. There is absolutely no requirement for non JAA airlines to apply with JAR-OPS.
Although MK appears to base some aircraft in the UK and have some offices here I understand that it also has offices in Ghana and conducts a significant proportion of it to/from Ghana. In issuing MK with an AOC the Ghana CAA are obviously satisfied that MK has its principal place of business in Ghana. In issuing a permit for MK to conduct services to/from the UK the Department for Transport must also be satisfied that MK has its principal place of business in Ghana.
My understanding is that the CAA inspect foreign airlines at the request of DfT and it is DfT that follow up any finding. In my experience they follow these up with both the airline and the relevant national aviation authority. I do not doubt that MK have been inspected.
I am not sure what "dirty goods" have been referred to but exemptions for dangerous goods are issued by the CAA not the Secretary of State.
Although MK appears to base some aircraft in the UK and have some offices here I understand that it also has offices in Ghana and conducts a significant proportion of it to/from Ghana. In issuing MK with an AOC the Ghana CAA are obviously satisfied that MK has its principal place of business in Ghana. In issuing a permit for MK to conduct services to/from the UK the Department for Transport must also be satisfied that MK has its principal place of business in Ghana.
My understanding is that the CAA inspect foreign airlines at the request of DfT and it is DfT that follow up any finding. In my experience they follow these up with both the airline and the relevant national aviation authority. I do not doubt that MK have been inspected.
I am not sure what "dirty goods" have been referred to but exemptions for dangerous goods are issued by the CAA not the Secretary of State.
Jolly Green Giant
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CargoOne,
If you can prove to me that Delta/AA/QF etc have their pilots doing 20 hour duty times and getting 6 hours rest before going off again, or if their pilots have ever had to sleep on pallets in somewhere like Port Harcourt, or if their maintenance is to the same standard as MK's, then I will fully agree they should be banned from enetering EU airspace.
This is not just about JAR-OPS, but about standards that carriers in Europe have to adhere to and others do not.
It's all about fairness.
If you can prove to me that Delta/AA/QF etc have their pilots doing 20 hour duty times and getting 6 hours rest before going off again, or if their pilots have ever had to sleep on pallets in somewhere like Port Harcourt, or if their maintenance is to the same standard as MK's, then I will fully agree they should be banned from enetering EU airspace.
This is not just about JAR-OPS, but about standards that carriers in Europe have to adhere to and others do not.
It's all about fairness.
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the very grey area of a states competency as a member of icao and upholding the minimum requirments of the standard are the responsability of the governing states and not the operators.
The uk caa therefore as a government approved body would conduct an audit on the airline to ensure its competency to operate,the JAR and the FAR are a standard which countries have implemented to further improve the basic criteria set out by ICAO .
The only unfair advantage that an operator not so heavily restricted may enjoy is on the field of maintenance and operating procedures(eg:ftl) so they would only be comprimising safety for cost rather than lack of knowledge
the responsable as stated are the countries that allow the operators to perform 5th freedom flights under their current aviation policy.
if a non uk airline operates services other than scheduled flights from the uk then they are obliged to request a no objection from the uk operators for commerical purposes
However the approving authority will require proof of aircraft
registery,competence of airline to operate and proof of adequate insurance coverage to comply with that states min requirment
meet all those requirment and theirs no reason why you should not operate regardless of registration
the open attitude of european countries and to a certain extent the americas has made it easier for other operators to take over key markets-so its a government issue at heart- complain to your mp or better still brussels- meanwhile ill register my brand new 747 QLRF under a Zanzibar AOC
The uk caa therefore as a government approved body would conduct an audit on the airline to ensure its competency to operate,the JAR and the FAR are a standard which countries have implemented to further improve the basic criteria set out by ICAO .
The only unfair advantage that an operator not so heavily restricted may enjoy is on the field of maintenance and operating procedures(eg:ftl) so they would only be comprimising safety for cost rather than lack of knowledge
the responsable as stated are the countries that allow the operators to perform 5th freedom flights under their current aviation policy.
if a non uk airline operates services other than scheduled flights from the uk then they are obliged to request a no objection from the uk operators for commerical purposes
However the approving authority will require proof of aircraft
registery,competence of airline to operate and proof of adequate insurance coverage to comply with that states min requirment
meet all those requirment and theirs no reason why you should not operate regardless of registration
the open attitude of european countries and to a certain extent the americas has made it easier for other operators to take over key markets-so its a government issue at heart- complain to your mp or better still brussels- meanwhile ill register my brand new 747 QLRF under a Zanzibar AOC
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There seems to be a deafening silence from the MK crews, probably too knackered to switch on the computer.
Perhaps if someone could stir themselves to reply to this comprehensive hosing, they could give us a run down of the Ghanaian CAA surveyors and their qualifications. (Being hastily written now I expect).
Interestingly enough, if you go to www.gcaa.gh/ which is the Ghanaian CAA website, MK does not appear as an airline serving Ghana at all, either scheduled or chartered.
Perhaps if someone could stir themselves to reply to this comprehensive hosing, they could give us a run down of the Ghanaian CAA surveyors and their qualifications. (Being hastily written now I expect).
Interestingly enough, if you go to www.gcaa.gh/ which is the Ghanaian CAA website, MK does not appear as an airline serving Ghana at all, either scheduled or chartered.
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Audits & Inspections
I have performed a number of Safety and Security Audits to JAA standards granted the last was about 4.5 years ago and ACCRA failed to comply with the greater majority of the basic requirements.
I have to pose the question that if they are unable to police the ground operation then they might have some difficulty policing the airline/ aircraft requirements.
I am still in touch with several locals and they lead me to believe that nothing has changed.
I have to pose the question that if they are unable to police the ground operation then they might have some difficulty policing the airline/ aircraft requirements.
I am still in touch with several locals and they lead me to believe that nothing has changed.
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AS far as crew licences go: I chat to crews virtually every day, albeit on the radio, but they make a good impression. Far better in fact than most who buzz around the European skies.
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I have performed a number of Safety and Security Audits to JAA standards granted the last was about 4.5 years ago and ACCRA failed to comply with the greater majority of the basic requirements. I have to pose the question that if they are unable to police the ground operation then they might have some difficulty policing the airline/ aircraft requirements.
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Cathar,
You may have missed HZ123's point.
As a JAR (or FAA operator)you are required to audit outside facilities from both technical and operational aspect. The point is not to convert the foreign Authority but to comply with your own rules.
If for example you decided to operate to Accra and they did not meet your requirements you would either have to get the foreign Authority to meet your requirements, OR get some exemption from your Authority, OR meet the requirements yourself. This is why you will see airlines providing their own security people at foreign airports for example in order to meet their requirements.
You may have missed HZ123's point.
As a JAR (or FAA operator)you are required to audit outside facilities from both technical and operational aspect. The point is not to convert the foreign Authority but to comply with your own rules.
If for example you decided to operate to Accra and they did not meet your requirements you would either have to get the foreign Authority to meet your requirements, OR get some exemption from your Authority, OR meet the requirements yourself. This is why you will see airlines providing their own security people at foreign airports for example in order to meet their requirements.
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Budget
Comments are well recieved and to clarify my point.
Previously someone stated that JAA requirements were applied to '9G' airlines. To which a response came that MK could not be found as a registered company in Ghana anyway, which must place a question mark over the JAA/ State compliance.
With a very small budget, limited experience and the vast numbers of other issues, African state registrations may be little better than the large numbers of ships that operate under flags of convience.
I would not dispute that the State of Ghana has compliance and conformance requirements in place and I know they are in the main to ICAO / IATA levels. My concern which seemed to be reflected in earlier threads was to what level do the operators comply and police these requirements and /or are they left entirely to apply their own compliance and conformance.
Surely I am not wrong to reach the conclusion that it is far easier to operate on '9G' than 'G'.
As 'ZRH' said he finds the crew he speaks to better than many European.
Previously someone stated that JAA requirements were applied to '9G' airlines. To which a response came that MK could not be found as a registered company in Ghana anyway, which must place a question mark over the JAA/ State compliance.
With a very small budget, limited experience and the vast numbers of other issues, African state registrations may be little better than the large numbers of ships that operate under flags of convience.
I would not dispute that the State of Ghana has compliance and conformance requirements in place and I know they are in the main to ICAO / IATA levels. My concern which seemed to be reflected in earlier threads was to what level do the operators comply and police these requirements and /or are they left entirely to apply their own compliance and conformance.
Surely I am not wrong to reach the conclusion that it is far easier to operate on '9G' than 'G'.
As 'ZRH' said he finds the crew he speaks to better than many European.
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..as a matter of interest does any body have an experience of leasing or subchartering non jar or far operators
i recall my own personal case from a couple of years getting a eeu govt to ratify a lease with swiss.. reason..some difficulties with the eu vs non eu procedures
ref non listing of airlines on the GCAA web page,this seems to be a commerical document advertising ACC and others ..as a lot of the uk and european and american freight charter operators who have scheduled rights are also not mentioned on the list of airlines
meanwhile off to watch that sport of kings.. football. will be at a loss for next 3 months on weekend afternoon's.. time to get the clubs out
i recall my own personal case from a couple of years getting a eeu govt to ratify a lease with swiss.. reason..some difficulties with the eu vs non eu procedures
ref non listing of airlines on the GCAA web page,this seems to be a commerical document advertising ACC and others ..as a lot of the uk and european and american freight charter operators who have scheduled rights are also not mentioned on the list of airlines
meanwhile off to watch that sport of kings.. football. will be at a loss for next 3 months on weekend afternoon's.. time to get the clubs out
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3C-GIG
Many of the threads perhaps reflect the concern that certain state registrations are of some safety concern within the industry.
3C-GIG better known to many as B707 KODA AIR at SEN has had its registration changed this week to 9L-LOU placing it on the Sierra Leon legend.
I cannot imagine that this operation has involved anything more than a few faxes or E-mails. For those of you familiar with its history and the subsequent court case a number of our colleagues described the a/c as unfit to fly and that it posed a danger whlist it operated in UK or anyone elses air space.
That said it is being worked on now by an individual by I doubt it will be hangared and there is only so much you can do outside.
3C-GIG better known to many as B707 KODA AIR at SEN has had its registration changed this week to 9L-LOU placing it on the Sierra Leon legend.
I cannot imagine that this operation has involved anything more than a few faxes or E-mails. For those of you familiar with its history and the subsequent court case a number of our colleagues described the a/c as unfit to fly and that it posed a danger whlist it operated in UK or anyone elses air space.
That said it is being worked on now by an individual by I doubt it will be hangared and there is only so much you can do outside.
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Interesting to note here is that people have assumed that the JAR OPs approach is the bee all and end all of aviation. Holding a Ghanian licence and having flown under GCAA rules and regulations (which in my view are a mixture of UK and FAA requirements) have never experience a degradation in professional attitude. 
But also holding a JAA licence can comment on the fact if you want to break rules be it duty time or maintenance log entries, does not matter what authority regulates you, that can be easily done. Have seen that done both in emerged and emerging nations.
One other comment I would make is that maybe the cost of bringing a company in line with JAR requirements makes them go the cheaper route. For those in Europe just look at the cost of making an amendment to your licence sure you will understand.
But also holding a JAA licence can comment on the fact if you want to break rules be it duty time or maintenance log entries, does not matter what authority regulates you, that can be easily done. Have seen that done both in emerged and emerging nations.
One other comment I would make is that maybe the cost of bringing a company in line with JAR requirements makes them go the cheaper route. For those in Europe just look at the cost of making an amendment to your licence sure you will understand.
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There will be one very good reason for changing the state of registration of the Koda 707 - since aircraft registered in Equatorial Guinea (3C-) are no longer permitted to fly in UK airspace, it would need to change it's tail # or be scrapped. She's worth next to nothing as scrap, but a few revenue flights could well generate enough revenue to pay for the purchase of the airframe.
If the rules let you do it, then people will do it!
If the rules let you do it, then people will do it!
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Engineer,
As a LAE with several jurisidictions I agree that if someone wants to bend (or break) the rules it can be done under any authorities rules.
It all depends on the ethics of the people involved in all levels of the company from owners down.
The difference is that under a serious jurisdiction it has much more chance of being discovered and the licence is generaly considered more valuable.
It is the ease with which these non serious jurisdictions can be circumvented that is the attraction.
The other point of costs is also very valid. I have just paid £201 for a clerk just just put a date stamp in a UK licence and £100,000 fee for an Export C of A so you can see the point !
As a LAE with several jurisidictions I agree that if someone wants to bend (or break) the rules it can be done under any authorities rules.
It all depends on the ethics of the people involved in all levels of the company from owners down.
The difference is that under a serious jurisdiction it has much more chance of being discovered and the licence is generaly considered more valuable.
It is the ease with which these non serious jurisdictions can be circumvented that is the attraction.
The other point of costs is also very valid. I have just paid £201 for a clerk just just put a date stamp in a UK licence and £100,000 fee for an Export C of A so you can see the point !
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Ghanaian registration
You will find that the MK DC-8s are also registered on the Icelandic registry - same planes. No, they don't fly to or through Ghana. The main reason for the survial of MK is that it is supported by Panalpina, as MK himself has a close co-operative arrangement with .leave the names out the managing director. The 'exotic cargos' sometimes include 'exotic passengers' on flights to Southern Africa. Alas, you will find MK with us for a while yet
Last edited by CR2; 19th May 2003 at 15:02.
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My 2 p worth. MK did have one or two DC8´s on an Icelandic Registery but only for a period of a few months in the late 1990´s if memeory serves me right.
The AOC was then sold of and became MD Airlines operating MD80´s from Sweden amongst other things.
MK however has had considerable dealings in Iceland including a weekly service for Icelandair a few years back so perhaps they will be back that way. Who knows.
The AOC was then sold of and became MD Airlines operating MD80´s from Sweden amongst other things.
MK however has had considerable dealings in Iceland including a weekly service for Icelandair a few years back so perhaps they will be back that way. Who knows.
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Registrations
How can these aging 'Queens of the Sky' be on two different registers. I like many of you do not see the JAA-OPS as the be all and all, in fact I see at times with about as much status as BSIA standards, the majority of which are form filing / completed in house and are no more than another badge to wear.
Nopax; The fact that someone can change the registration on an a/c that at the recent trial was described without challenge as dangerous gives me little comfort. More so as the a/c is rumoured to depart soon without having been in a Hangar for a serious service for many years. The sooner it clears UK airspace maybe the better.
Nopax; The fact that someone can change the registration on an a/c that at the recent trial was described without challenge as dangerous gives me little comfort. More so as the a/c is rumoured to depart soon without having been in a Hangar for a serious service for many years. The sooner it clears UK airspace maybe the better.