Inside Information from Cargolux
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Inside Information from Cargolux
This new thread was started to give potential applicants an inside view of their potential new employer. It will compile information from various sources, inside and outside the company, from unions, political sources. The authors will not engage into discussions, just supply information normally not available to regular employees. The aim is to provide two or three contributions per week starting as soon as possible.
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Labor Law
Ok, here we go. Everybody applying with Cargolux should be aware of the legal framework of Luxembourg. As a member of the EU there are still some differences in the natinal labour law which governs the employment contract that are interesting.
In Luxembourg a comprehensive protection against dismissals does not exist. Unlike other neighboring countries (Belgium, France) in Luxembourg the employer can always terminate an employment contract if he wants to. Regular notice period on a permanent contract (less than five years) is 1 month. You are only protected against dismissal if you are sick (during the sick period), pregnant or a member of the employee-delegation. Other protection does not exist.
Sick leave: If you are on sick leave the national health insurance will cover your salary for a certain period of time (appr 6 month). After that you will still receive money, but the amount is capped to appr. 5500 Euros per month. Hence, If you are a senior captain you will loose between 30 - 50% of your net income.
Sick leave 2: If you are on long term sick leave for more than 26 weeks you are not protected against dismissal anymore. This means that the employer can fire you at will. If you are sick for 52 weeks within 104 weeks your employment contract is automatically terminated. Even if your employer wants to keep you. This has happened regularly in the past.
Sick leave 3: If you are on sick leave you are basically not allowed to leave your house. Although there are certain exceptions (visiting a doctor, etc...) there is a general house arrest that is strictly enforced. The health insurance uses inspectors that will visit your home to verify that you do not violate this requirement. In the past these inspectors were aided by private investigators (hired by Cargolux?) that were observed spying on pilots on sick leave and their families. Wives bringing their children to a daycare facility were questioned, homes photographed, etc. In 2015 this lead to the dismissal of four pilots. One pilot who was on sick leave for a flu went to a home appliance store, was photographed and dismissed. So far (3 years later) the courts held up the dismissals in all four cases.
Labor Courts: In Luxembourg the court system works rather slowly. The pilots dismissed in 2015 had to wait more than 18 months for the first court hearing. 18 months without salary and without a job. This is normal in Luxembourg. At the same time, legal representation is pretty expensive, lawyers charge between 350 and 500 Euros per hour. As discussed earlier, so far, the courts held up all dismissals.
These are the main topics for new pilots in Luxembourg. If you come from Belgium, Germany or the Netherlands you need to be aware of these differences.
A good source for further reading is the "guichet". Just google the term, the information is available in several languages.
In Luxembourg a comprehensive protection against dismissals does not exist. Unlike other neighboring countries (Belgium, France) in Luxembourg the employer can always terminate an employment contract if he wants to. Regular notice period on a permanent contract (less than five years) is 1 month. You are only protected against dismissal if you are sick (during the sick period), pregnant or a member of the employee-delegation. Other protection does not exist.
Sick leave: If you are on sick leave the national health insurance will cover your salary for a certain period of time (appr 6 month). After that you will still receive money, but the amount is capped to appr. 5500 Euros per month. Hence, If you are a senior captain you will loose between 30 - 50% of your net income.
Sick leave 2: If you are on long term sick leave for more than 26 weeks you are not protected against dismissal anymore. This means that the employer can fire you at will. If you are sick for 52 weeks within 104 weeks your employment contract is automatically terminated. Even if your employer wants to keep you. This has happened regularly in the past.
Sick leave 3: If you are on sick leave you are basically not allowed to leave your house. Although there are certain exceptions (visiting a doctor, etc...) there is a general house arrest that is strictly enforced. The health insurance uses inspectors that will visit your home to verify that you do not violate this requirement. In the past these inspectors were aided by private investigators (hired by Cargolux?) that were observed spying on pilots on sick leave and their families. Wives bringing their children to a daycare facility were questioned, homes photographed, etc. In 2015 this lead to the dismissal of four pilots. One pilot who was on sick leave for a flu went to a home appliance store, was photographed and dismissed. So far (3 years later) the courts held up the dismissals in all four cases.
Labor Courts: In Luxembourg the court system works rather slowly. The pilots dismissed in 2015 had to wait more than 18 months for the first court hearing. 18 months without salary and without a job. This is normal in Luxembourg. At the same time, legal representation is pretty expensive, lawyers charge between 350 and 500 Euros per hour. As discussed earlier, so far, the courts held up all dismissals.
These are the main topics for new pilots in Luxembourg. If you come from Belgium, Germany or the Netherlands you need to be aware of these differences.
A good source for further reading is the "guichet". Just google the term, the information is available in several languages.
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This is interesting.
Cargolux is a very interesting company to work, due to its type of operation, and flexibility that pilots needs to have.
On the other hand , the salary in the first year is low, considering that if you move with your family. Let’s say, wife and 2 kids.
I have no doubts that Luxembourg gives you very nice life quality.
House rentals are expensive, so the alternative is Germany, like Tier city, 30 minutes by car. I searched for some 2 room apartments in Luxembourg can be 1600€, in Germany 800€.
So if you’re sick, and you have an inspection, but you’re living in Germany, how does the health inspectors act?
Cargolux is a very interesting company to work, due to its type of operation, and flexibility that pilots needs to have.
On the other hand , the salary in the first year is low, considering that if you move with your family. Let’s say, wife and 2 kids.
I have no doubts that Luxembourg gives you very nice life quality.
House rentals are expensive, so the alternative is Germany, like Tier city, 30 minutes by car. I searched for some 2 room apartments in Luxembourg can be 1600€, in Germany 800€.
So if you’re sick, and you have an inspection, but you’re living in Germany, how does the health inspectors act?
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There are a few errors in Burgerland's post.
1) Luxembourg's labor laws are considered employee friendly, in line with Luxembourg's tradition of closely following French and Belgian laws and jurisprudence. It is way more difficult to get fired in Luxembourg than in Germany, UK, Scandinavia etc.
The minimum notice period is 2 months not 1. Maybe Burgerland meant the severance payment?
The employer can dismiss you but only for a cause. He cannot just dismiss you on a whim. Those causes will be examined by the labor tribunal and if the tribunal doesn't believe the dismissal was justified it can cancel the dismissal and order the employer to pay substantial damages (lost wages + other damages + reimbursement of the court costs).
Reasons for dismissal must be supported by demonstrable and explicit facts. Such facts include: • reasons connected with the employee's aptitude; • reasons connected with the employee's conduct; or • reasons arising from the operating needs of the business, establishment or department. It should be noted at this point that if the employee challenges the reasons indicated, the onus is on the employer to demonstrate that they are well founded.
The procedure in labor courts can be relatively speedy for certain aspects of the case (référé). The court can force for instance the employer to keep paying your salary until the court case has been decided. The union will normally pay your lawyer. Concerning the notice period and severance pay you need to check the cwa and not only the law. You can only get fired without notice and severance for gross misconduct (faute grave). Courts are very strict in examining the alleged gross misconduct. The employer needs to prove his allegations.
Some of the guys from across the street received very substantial damages for unfair dismissal a few years ago.
2) The 52 week period has just been extended.
3) It depends on your doctor's sick note if you are allowed to leave the house only for a short duration or longer periods (sortie autorisée or non-autorisée). It really depends on the nature of your sickness. Obliviously if you are on sick leave with "sortie non-autorisée" you can not do any home improvements, mow the lawn, play sports, go out dinning etc etc. Inspections are in fact very rare.
For more details just google Luxembourg labour law. There are many webpages in English.
1) Luxembourg's labor laws are considered employee friendly, in line with Luxembourg's tradition of closely following French and Belgian laws and jurisprudence. It is way more difficult to get fired in Luxembourg than in Germany, UK, Scandinavia etc.
The minimum notice period is 2 months not 1. Maybe Burgerland meant the severance payment?
The employer can dismiss you but only for a cause. He cannot just dismiss you on a whim. Those causes will be examined by the labor tribunal and if the tribunal doesn't believe the dismissal was justified it can cancel the dismissal and order the employer to pay substantial damages (lost wages + other damages + reimbursement of the court costs).
Reasons for dismissal must be supported by demonstrable and explicit facts. Such facts include: • reasons connected with the employee's aptitude; • reasons connected with the employee's conduct; or • reasons arising from the operating needs of the business, establishment or department. It should be noted at this point that if the employee challenges the reasons indicated, the onus is on the employer to demonstrate that they are well founded.
The procedure in labor courts can be relatively speedy for certain aspects of the case (référé). The court can force for instance the employer to keep paying your salary until the court case has been decided. The union will normally pay your lawyer. Concerning the notice period and severance pay you need to check the cwa and not only the law. You can only get fired without notice and severance for gross misconduct (faute grave). Courts are very strict in examining the alleged gross misconduct. The employer needs to prove his allegations.
Some of the guys from across the street received very substantial damages for unfair dismissal a few years ago.
2) The 52 week period has just been extended.
3) It depends on your doctor's sick note if you are allowed to leave the house only for a short duration or longer periods (sortie autorisée or non-autorisée). It really depends on the nature of your sickness. Obliviously if you are on sick leave with "sortie non-autorisée" you can not do any home improvements, mow the lawn, play sports, go out dinning etc etc. Inspections are in fact very rare.
For more details just google Luxembourg labour law. There are many webpages in English.
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I disclose as verbatim:
The person declared sick is not allowed to leave the house during the first 5 days of his incapacity for work (despite any contrary indications on the medical certificate). From the 6th day onwards (as long as the doctor did not advise against a permission to leave the house), the person declared sick is allowed to leave the house between 10am-12 noon and between 2pm - 6pm.
The person declared sick is not allowed to leave the house during the first 5 days of his incapacity for work (despite any contrary indications on the medical certificate). From the 6th day onwards (as long as the doctor did not advise against a permission to leave the house), the person declared sick is allowed to leave the house between 10am-12 noon and between 2pm - 6pm.
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These rules are made only by the CNS (national insurance company) in order to be able to contact the sick client during certain times. IT IS A GUIDLINE! Not a law. That is a big difference that Cargolux managers don`t understand. The main reason why these pilots were fired was to find some scapegoats in 2015 because of the fight betweeen management and pilots - kind of a revenge. Outcome is that court cases are still in progress for more than three years and probably can take another three years cost a fortune...
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rotorcloud...
Your last message is pure bullocks...
Not only did the 4 pilots who were dismissed violate the CNS rules, they also violated their employment contract. None of them were factually sick when they went on sick leave . one of them even had a 10+ years habit of calling in sick 2 weeks during the summer...while at the same time going sailing and golfing. They got what they asked for, and they do not have my sympathy at all...
Get your facts right before you post next time...
Hawkeye red
Your last message is pure bullocks...
Not only did the 4 pilots who were dismissed violate the CNS rules, they also violated their employment contract. None of them were factually sick when they went on sick leave . one of them even had a 10+ years habit of calling in sick 2 weeks during the summer...while at the same time going sailing and golfing. They got what they asked for, and they do not have my sympathy at all...
Get your facts right before you post next time...
Hawkeye red
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hawkeye red / or Wieger?
You must know much more than the judges...they did definitely NOT violate ANYTHING in respect of emplyment contrac nor against anything else. In the cargolux employment handbook all disciplinary actions and the process are clearly written. None of them had a warning letter, so the only reason where you could fire someone WITHOUT ANY warning letter is „fault grave“! That means stealing something or intentionally damage equipment etc.
Please get YOUR facts right before you post next time! Thank you in advance and have a great day.
Rotorcloud
You must know much more than the judges...they did definitely NOT violate ANYTHING in respect of emplyment contrac nor against anything else. In the cargolux employment handbook all disciplinary actions and the process are clearly written. None of them had a warning letter, so the only reason where you could fire someone WITHOUT ANY warning letter is „fault grave“! That means stealing something or intentionally damage equipment etc.
Please get YOUR facts right before you post next time! Thank you in advance and have a great day.
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rotorcloud,
have you ever looked into our OM-A?
Crew Conduct
Dischargeable Offences [FLT 1.3.9]
• Willful misuse of sick leave for personal reasons other than actual illness
And there were plenty of warning letters.
But I agree that the timing had the sole purpose of intimidating the rest of the pilot group during the CWA negotiations.
have you ever looked into our OM-A?
Crew Conduct
Dischargeable Offences [FLT 1.3.9]
• Willful misuse of sick leave for personal reasons other than actual illness
And there were plenty of warning letters.
But I agree that the timing had the sole purpose of intimidating the rest of the pilot group during the CWA negotiations.
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.....and here is the excerp from the labor law...
"Examples of motifs graves are insults made against the employer (L’ADTLu supra, p. 19), prolonged unjustified absence, the repeated late arrivals, theft, threats and physical violence in the workplace, insubordination, unfair competition in the workplace etc."
Good night Rotorcloud....but Final06 is correct about the timing...
regards
Hawkeye
Hawkeye
"Examples of motifs graves are insults made against the employer (L’ADTLu supra, p. 19), prolonged unjustified absence, the repeated late arrivals, theft, threats and physical violence in the workplace, insubordination, unfair competition in the workplace etc."
Good night Rotorcloud....but Final06 is correct about the timing...
regards
Hawkeye
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@Final06 thx for the OM—A quote. The thing is, that it simply was no5 willful misues because everybody had a valid doctors certificate. There were definitly NO warning lettters. Please tell the truth and get your facts right before telling BS about your colleagues.
@h.r. Yes but the absence was justified! Because they were on sick leave with a valid certificate! .... easy.
hope you guys know that they were offered to come back?
good night good day.
@h.r. Yes but the absence was justified! Because they were on sick leave with a valid certificate! .... easy.
hope you guys know that they were offered to come back?
good night good day.
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rotorcloud...have you totally lost it..?????
Yes they all had valid doctors certificates...that is excactly what made it a fautes graves...they falsified a document (the doctors cerificate) by claiming they were sick, when in fact they were not.
....and you have information that not even the involved parties know about. I'm in weekly contact with one of the persons, and he was never offered to come back. You are a gigantic fool to claim such rubbish...
Hawkeye
Yes they all had valid doctors certificates...that is excactly what made it a fautes graves...they falsified a document (the doctors cerificate) by claiming they were sick, when in fact they were not.
....and you have information that not even the involved parties know about. I'm in weekly contact with one of the persons, and he was never offered to come back. You are a gigantic fool to claim such rubbish...
Hawkeye
