Passengers on Cargo Aircraft
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 362
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From: Australasia
Passengers on Cargo Aircraft
Folks,
I need some advice from those out there flying international and domestic cargo.
Apart from pilots, who may be carried on cargo flights and what special provisions are required?
I am currently involved in a regulatory matter with a regulator who will not accept loading supervisors or maintainers ("flying spanners") as part of the operating crew and who requires the fitment of slides if these "passengers" are carried. Even horse handlers are required to be trained like Flight Attendants.
What happens wherever you (or your AOC) happen to be?
I need some advice from those out there flying international and domestic cargo.
Apart from pilots, who may be carried on cargo flights and what special provisions are required?
I am currently involved in a regulatory matter with a regulator who will not accept loading supervisors or maintainers ("flying spanners") as part of the operating crew and who requires the fitment of slides if these "passengers" are carried. Even horse handlers are required to be trained like Flight Attendants.
What happens wherever you (or your AOC) happen to be?
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 545
Likes: 1
From: Dunstable, Beds UK
The L1011 FAA approved cargo conversion leaves 1 of the original pax door operable but removes the slide and replaces it with an escape rope.
I guess the answer is that unless you have a combi you cannot carry "passengers" in the airline sense of the word.
The passenger are technically all company personel and there is a normal pre-flight procedure to give the supernumaries a briefing on all emergency equipment ( as in pax aircraft) but given by the crew rather than a hostie. ( come to think of it ....
)
I guess the answer is that unless you have a combi you cannot carry "passengers" in the airline sense of the word.
The passenger are technically all company personel and there is a normal pre-flight procedure to give the supernumaries a briefing on all emergency equipment ( as in pax aircraft) but given by the crew rather than a hostie. ( come to think of it ....
)
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
From: Thames Valley
According to JAA , non-crew members are not allowed anymore whenever dangerous cargo is carried.
Dangerous cargo is subject to carriage, also as last minute change cargo.
Therefore non-crew members are not on board anymore.
Or the company is still not aware and not operating conform JAA .
Dangerous cargo is subject to carriage, also as last minute change cargo.
Therefore non-crew members are not on board anymore.
Or the company is still not aware and not operating conform JAA .
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,242
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From: Australia
On the B744 Freighter we often carried Grooms when carrying horses.
Grooms had to be have a proper safety briefing which included the operation of the slide at the U/D door.
Additionally grooms had to be properly briefed on the use of the 'walk-about' oxygen unit as they were permitted to be down below with the horses during the flight.
Grooms were shown on a pax. manifest and had pax. tickets. but they knew exactly where the food was and were catered for!
Grooms had to be have a proper safety briefing which included the operation of the slide at the U/D door.
Additionally grooms had to be properly briefed on the use of the 'walk-about' oxygen unit as they were permitted to be down below with the horses during the flight.
Grooms were shown on a pax. manifest and had pax. tickets. but they knew exactly where the food was and were catered for!
Trash du Blanc
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,185
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From: KBHM
US regulations provide for animal handlers to ride - but must be briefed on emergency procedures. In the old days we would let them ride in the cockpit, but post-9/11 they would definitely be behind the door in the courier seats.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 545
Likes: 1
From: Dunstable, Beds UK
E.Morse,
Many carriers just refuse to take Hazmat these days and those that do will only do it on specific flights.
Its a real pain trying to get a fire bottle, squib, slide raft, Oxy bottle or Oyx generator to an aircraft down the route.
Its amazing that they can fly with pax and all these devices are littered around the aircraft but not on a cargo aircraft
Many carriers just refuse to take Hazmat these days and those that do will only do it on specific flights.
Its a real pain trying to get a fire bottle, squib, slide raft, Oxy bottle or Oyx generator to an aircraft down the route.
Its amazing that they can fly with pax and all these devices are littered around the aircraft but not on a cargo aircraft
SkyGod
Joined: Aug 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,624
Likes: 108
From: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Pax or paying pax?
Big diff.
Yeah, we carry horse grooms, couriers, guards, whatever is linked to the cargo.
Regualr paying pax? Not so,
(They be more pain than worth)
One time I hauled 540 million US $ from one Saudi bank to the other on a cargo DC-8.
Had 2 armed guards onboard as well as their holy water to bless the money transfer.
Thought long and hard about about topping off the 18 hr fuel tanks, climb high then dump the cabin so the guards would go to Allah forever, then dive under the radar to simulate crash and then cross the ocean to South America.
(Guess the Nazi-Krauts did something similar at the end of WW2 with their sub-marines.)
Retire in Rio with unlimited bikini girls.
Beats the lack of a company sponsored retirement account..
Big diff.
Yeah, we carry horse grooms, couriers, guards, whatever is linked to the cargo.
Regualr paying pax? Not so,
(They be more pain than worth)
One time I hauled 540 million US $ from one Saudi bank to the other on a cargo DC-8.
Had 2 armed guards onboard as well as their holy water to bless the money transfer.
Thought long and hard about about topping off the 18 hr fuel tanks, climb high then dump the cabin so the guards would go to Allah forever, then dive under the radar to simulate crash and then cross the ocean to South America.
(Guess the Nazi-Krauts did something similar at the end of WW2 with their sub-marines.)
Retire in Rio with unlimited bikini girls.
Beats the lack of a company sponsored retirement account..
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: UK
Maybe personnel change in september will do it! All it takes is one of those jo'burg runs with the fish to divert somewhere, with no loady or flying spanner, then the fish goes off, and the customers not going to be a happy bunny!
Trash du Blanc
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 0
From: KBHM
Towerdog-
I heard a rumor in Entebbe once that a certain African carrier flying today got started that way - a load of gold being carried from a mine to Johannesburg went off-course and just kept heading north....
I heard a rumor in Entebbe once that a certain African carrier flying today got started that way - a load of gold being carried from a mine to Johannesburg went off-course and just kept heading north....
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 1
From: Egcc
Currently pax flying, but a similar issue was raised at work yesterday about use of the jumpseat. Up 'til now company employees and spouses have been allowed the jumpseat but I was told by the fleet manager that he has just received a letter from the CAA (JAA?) stating that later this month the rules are changing and this will no longer be allowed, not sure of the specifics but may well apply to cargo ops as well.
PP
PP
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 470
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From: over here
In our case (146QT) the aircraft don't have the slide fitted, but we are permitted to carry grooms when we do a Horse charter, so I'm assuming that the slide is not a requirement, as long as the pax aren't paying as such. The living cargo is paid for, and the grooms are just there out of necessity.
That had better be how it works, or else we could be on the lookout for a few sets of slides........................
We can use the jumpseat for company employees, but are expecting a change soon.
That had better be how it works, or else we could be on the lookout for a few sets of slides........................
We can use the jumpseat for company employees, but are expecting a change soon.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
From: over here
I believe that the authorities' viewpoint is that freighter aircraft can sit about in less regulated areas of airports with the doors open, the staff who load them up could also be suspect, and it is possible to hide in a freight container - also, the A/C makes as big a hole with freight as it would with pax onboard, so it is just as desirable as an airborne missile.
That said, it's easier to secure a freight compartment - you just need emergency access in case of fire or chemical leaks, etc. A one-way door, possibly??
That said, it's easier to secure a freight compartment - you just need emergency access in case of fire or chemical leaks, etc. A one-way door, possibly??
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,643
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From: UK
PilotPete
Your indeed correct, there is a letter from the CAA to all UK Airlines confirming that fairly soon there will be no jumpseaters
on pax or frieght airlines unless employed by said Airline.
It also makes specific reference to friends and families being a
no-no.
There are exceptions to "group" Airlines but they must follow
the same screening and ID issue methods.
Not going down well but least we forget the reasons
Your indeed correct, there is a letter from the CAA to all UK Airlines confirming that fairly soon there will be no jumpseaters
on pax or frieght airlines unless employed by said Airline.
It also makes specific reference to friends and families being a
no-no.
There are exceptions to "group" Airlines but they must follow
the same screening and ID issue methods.
Not going down well but least we forget the reasons
Evertonian
Joined: May 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 13,470
Likes: 278
From: #3117# Ppruner of the Year Nominee 2005
no jumpseaters on pax or frieght airlines unless employed by said Airline
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 197
Likes: 13
From: ??-ask crewing
The looney on the Fedex was an ex or about to be ex employee.
One would hope that the issuing of the ticket for jumpseats would take care to ensure that no such access is permitted for people in this situation in future.
One would hope that the issuing of the ticket for jumpseats would take care to ensure that no such access is permitted for people in this situation in future.
