US Military Contracts
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US Military Contracts
I will also post this in the North America forum.
I am very fortunate to hold a green-card, as I grew up in the US, but was very disappointed, and a little upset, to be told by two potential US employers that the likelihood of my getting a job with them is remote.
The chief pilot of one airline explained that their US military contracts in the Far East are only eligible to be flown by US citizens. Since most of the company pilots want to be in the US, they send the new guys out. To hire me, they would have to bump someone more senior.
I understand that security has to be increased, but I don't see how citizenship confers security. After all, haven't several Taliban and other terrorists been US born and or/citizens. Moreover, if origin is a concern, why are non-US nationals allowed to enlist in the US armed forces. As a British Citizen, I hardly originate from source of significant anti-American terrorism. I have lived (on and off) in the US for the past ten years, was trained and educated here, and was formally an appointed Officer in the Royal Navy and therefore have already undergone extensive background checks. My background is both secure and easily verifiable
Of course, I would imagine that this would negate the opportunity of working for many other major US cargo carriers, like Atlas and World and I'm sure there are probably other closed opportunities yet to be discovered. I must say, the last thing I needed in the current economic climate are more obstacles.
Has anyone else had similar experiences?
Not that I would pursue it, but is it even legal to deny employment on the basis of the above?
I am very fortunate to hold a green-card, as I grew up in the US, but was very disappointed, and a little upset, to be told by two potential US employers that the likelihood of my getting a job with them is remote.
The chief pilot of one airline explained that their US military contracts in the Far East are only eligible to be flown by US citizens. Since most of the company pilots want to be in the US, they send the new guys out. To hire me, they would have to bump someone more senior.
I understand that security has to be increased, but I don't see how citizenship confers security. After all, haven't several Taliban and other terrorists been US born and or/citizens. Moreover, if origin is a concern, why are non-US nationals allowed to enlist in the US armed forces. As a British Citizen, I hardly originate from source of significant anti-American terrorism. I have lived (on and off) in the US for the past ten years, was trained and educated here, and was formally an appointed Officer in the Royal Navy and therefore have already undergone extensive background checks. My background is both secure and easily verifiable
Of course, I would imagine that this would negate the opportunity of working for many other major US cargo carriers, like Atlas and World and I'm sure there are probably other closed opportunities yet to be discovered. I must say, the last thing I needed in the current economic climate are more obstacles.
Has anyone else had similar experiences?
Not that I would pursue it, but is it even legal to deny employment on the basis of the above?
Last edited by CAVU; 19th May 2002 at 16:55.
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CAVU, I can offer a little insight hopefully.
The Status of Forces Agreements (SOFA) with many of the nations that U.S. military contractors fly into require that the crews be U.S. citizens.
Yes, this is a requirement of many EU countries.
These U.S. contract carriers have no choice but to require that their crews be U.S. citizens.
SOFA agreements are similar to treaties. They are formal agreements between two nations that contain rules and requirements spelling out how the U.S. military (includes military contractors) shall operate within the host (foreign) country.
If you would like more information, e-mail me.
Cheers,
The Status of Forces Agreements (SOFA) with many of the nations that U.S. military contractors fly into require that the crews be U.S. citizens.
Yes, this is a requirement of many EU countries.
These U.S. contract carriers have no choice but to require that their crews be U.S. citizens.
SOFA agreements are similar to treaties. They are formal agreements between two nations that contain rules and requirements spelling out how the U.S. military (includes military contractors) shall operate within the host (foreign) country.
If you would like more information, e-mail me.
Cheers,
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Check Six- Many thanks
Again, to emphasize I am very grateful to be able to hold a green card, I am just disappointed in a simplistic and draconian measure to reduce the security threat that is precluding some of the best flying jobs. Moreover, a measure that seems to make little sense.
Two examples:
Prior to his capture, with training, a shave and a shower (or ten) John Walker-Lynn would have been eligible to fly a US military aircraft, United 747-400 with 400 plus passengers on board not withstanding, all over the US. In fact, he may have been hired by United ahead of many others, because of his Islamic faith (Minority status)
If I were still in the RN I could fly US military personnel and supplies anywhere in the World. Indeed, I could even fly a fully armed US military combat jet on an exchange over US territories.
However, because I'm not a US passport holder I'm not allowed to fly as a panel jockey, on freighter that was built ten years before I was born, flying MREs from Hyung ya to Dung foo.
You seem as though you may have a better insight. I have tried E-mailing, but the administrator says that you are not accepting mail via the bulletin board. Do you have another address?
PS Regards being a requirement in Europe, I would rarely look to continental Europe for bureaucratic logic
Again, to emphasize I am very grateful to be able to hold a green card, I am just disappointed in a simplistic and draconian measure to reduce the security threat that is precluding some of the best flying jobs. Moreover, a measure that seems to make little sense.
Two examples:
Prior to his capture, with training, a shave and a shower (or ten) John Walker-Lynn would have been eligible to fly a US military aircraft, United 747-400 with 400 plus passengers on board not withstanding, all over the US. In fact, he may have been hired by United ahead of many others, because of his Islamic faith (Minority status)
If I were still in the RN I could fly US military personnel and supplies anywhere in the World. Indeed, I could even fly a fully armed US military combat jet on an exchange over US territories.
However, because I'm not a US passport holder I'm not allowed to fly as a panel jockey, on freighter that was built ten years before I was born, flying MREs from Hyung ya to Dung foo.
You seem as though you may have a better insight. I have tried E-mailing, but the administrator says that you are not accepting mail via the bulletin board. Do you have another address?
PS Regards being a requirement in Europe, I would rarely look to continental Europe for bureaucratic logic
Last edited by CAVU; 18th May 2002 at 22:47.
CAVU:
Perhaps the rules have changed but when I worked for a US carrier which was heavily involved in military contracts some 15 years ago, I had no problem.
If you have been PV cleared by MOD (as I and my mates had been) then DOD in Washington had no difficulty in checking us out and within a couple of weeks, I had my DOD ID card proclaiming me to be a Field Officer Grade IV and off I went on military charters.
Perhaps the rules have changed but when I worked for a US carrier which was heavily involved in military contracts some 15 years ago, I had no problem.
If you have been PV cleared by MOD (as I and my mates had been) then DOD in Washington had no difficulty in checking us out and within a couple of weeks, I had my DOD ID card proclaiming me to be a Field Officer Grade IV and off I went on military charters.
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JW411- Thanks
I did contact the Defence Security Services in Washington and was told that a security clearance was available, but only if sponsored by a company or US government agency. Hence, one must first be hired to be able to apply for a security clearance.
Am I dealing with the right people?
Check 6
The facts are that this particular company has said that it is the contract, and not any country that demands the flight crew be US citizens. However, common sense and the information I am getting is beginning to point to a stipulation for a US security clearance, not citizenship. It is also suggesting that foreigner's clearances take longer (although I don't believe this would be true in my case) thereby making their recruitment more problematic. Ergo, the question: Is it legal to deny the opportunity of employment on this basis? How would this fit in with US Equal Opportunity laws?
To go back to your point that some European countries require pilots of US contract aircraft to be US citizens, I am completely puzzled as to what benefits the nations who have made this rule can be reaping, if only the US is subject to this rule, and even that the US government would allow another country to indirectly dictate to a US company whom they may employ?
Do these countries demand the same of other nations i.e. British operators must have only British pilots or that Irish operators have only Irish pilots?
Case in point, can you imagine what an impact on civilian operations of say Cathay, Emirates or Ryan there would be if the UK said, “Right, I’m very sorry but only your own nationals may operate your aircraft into our country.”?
I have noted on another thread that all foreign nationals wishing to obtain a type rating in the US must now also receive a security clearance. If companies start rejecting foreign applicants under the pretext that getting a security clearance will significantly devalue a green card for a US based flying career.
If I have not misunderstood this information, it is very troubling news for myself and other green card holders.
I did contact the Defence Security Services in Washington and was told that a security clearance was available, but only if sponsored by a company or US government agency. Hence, one must first be hired to be able to apply for a security clearance.
Am I dealing with the right people?
Check 6
The facts are that this particular company has said that it is the contract, and not any country that demands the flight crew be US citizens. However, common sense and the information I am getting is beginning to point to a stipulation for a US security clearance, not citizenship. It is also suggesting that foreigner's clearances take longer (although I don't believe this would be true in my case) thereby making their recruitment more problematic. Ergo, the question: Is it legal to deny the opportunity of employment on this basis? How would this fit in with US Equal Opportunity laws?
To go back to your point that some European countries require pilots of US contract aircraft to be US citizens, I am completely puzzled as to what benefits the nations who have made this rule can be reaping, if only the US is subject to this rule, and even that the US government would allow another country to indirectly dictate to a US company whom they may employ?
Do these countries demand the same of other nations i.e. British operators must have only British pilots or that Irish operators have only Irish pilots?
Case in point, can you imagine what an impact on civilian operations of say Cathay, Emirates or Ryan there would be if the UK said, “Right, I’m very sorry but only your own nationals may operate your aircraft into our country.”?
I have noted on another thread that all foreign nationals wishing to obtain a type rating in the US must now also receive a security clearance. If companies start rejecting foreign applicants under the pretext that getting a security clearance will significantly devalue a green card for a US based flying career.
If I have not misunderstood this information, it is very troubling news for myself and other green card holders.
Last edited by CAVU; 19th May 2002 at 16:52.
CAVU:
It sounds like you are involved in a Catch 22 situation. I presume that you have showed your letter saying that security clearance is available to the prospective employer?
Could they not then hire you on probation until such security clearance is obtained? It sounds like there is a bit of post-911 overreaction afoot.
Good Luck.
It sounds like you are involved in a Catch 22 situation. I presume that you have showed your letter saying that security clearance is available to the prospective employer?
Could they not then hire you on probation until such security clearance is obtained? It sounds like there is a bit of post-911 overreaction afoot.
Good Luck.
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Limitations of "Green" Cards
My airline also has AMC (Air Mobility Command) contract flights. As a result, many of our non citizen junior pilots get to fly "senior" trips, (back at home in a day or two) and some senior citizen pilots get stuck flying AMC trips on the other side of the World, having to live out of a suitcase for a month. It has also become a scheduling problem, severely impacting seniority. As a result, the company will no longer hire non citizens.
"Green" card holders (Legal Aliens) have a right to live and to work in the country, but obviously they don't have "full rights" for every job. But they have a right to apply for citizenship!
"Green" card holders (Legal Aliens) have a right to live and to work in the country, but obviously they don't have "full rights" for every job. But they have a right to apply for citizenship!
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"Green" card holders (Legal Aliens) have a right to live and to work in the country, but obviously they don't have "full rights" for every job. But they have a right to apply for citizenship!"
But to apply for a citizenship you must have lived stateside uninterrupted for 5 years. If you leave the country for more than 6 months the time resets. In my case I flew a 8-month contract in Europe, so I had to start all over again.
But to apply for a citizenship you must have lived stateside uninterrupted for 5 years. If you leave the country for more than 6 months the time resets. In my case I flew a 8-month contract in Europe, so I had to start all over again.
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We're straying away from anything cargo related here. I'll give it another day or so before I move/close this thread. Perhaps the North American forum is a more appropriate home for this thread.
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CAVU,
Why, yes I too have had similar experience, but it was in the UK. Back in the early ‘90s I had quite a few interviews and spoke to some Chief Pilots in the UK.
I had around 8,000 hrs TT over 4,000 hrs PIC on Heavy Jets flying long haul. After a while it was obvious to me that as an American I was not going to get a position with a “Major” airline in the UK even though I had the right to live and work in the UK, as well as a UK ATPL. There were a lot of British pilots also looking for work. Two of the airlines I spoke to afterwards said that since I was 35 I was too old to be considered.
This was something that was on my CV to begin with and I felt that since I was American this was the reason I was turned down in the end. I spent the next few years flying for a small cargo airline hauling cargo nobody else wanted to carry to places nobody else wanted to fly to. It was an education and in hindsight I am glad I did it and flew with some excellent crewmembers. Eventually I went back to the US to fly for an airline that is now “Belly-Up”.
Life goes on and I am flying for my 5th airline and as we all know, you ain’t nobody ‘till you’ve flown for 7 or 8 airlines. I’m still working on my “Wings” collection.
Brother, I feel your pain.
Good luck,
Skippy
Why, yes I too have had similar experience, but it was in the UK. Back in the early ‘90s I had quite a few interviews and spoke to some Chief Pilots in the UK.
I had around 8,000 hrs TT over 4,000 hrs PIC on Heavy Jets flying long haul. After a while it was obvious to me that as an American I was not going to get a position with a “Major” airline in the UK even though I had the right to live and work in the UK, as well as a UK ATPL. There were a lot of British pilots also looking for work. Two of the airlines I spoke to afterwards said that since I was 35 I was too old to be considered.
This was something that was on my CV to begin with and I felt that since I was American this was the reason I was turned down in the end. I spent the next few years flying for a small cargo airline hauling cargo nobody else wanted to carry to places nobody else wanted to fly to. It was an education and in hindsight I am glad I did it and flew with some excellent crewmembers. Eventually I went back to the US to fly for an airline that is now “Belly-Up”. Life goes on and I am flying for my 5th airline and as we all know, you ain’t nobody ‘till you’ve flown for 7 or 8 airlines. I’m still working on my “Wings” collection.
Brother, I feel your pain.
Good luck,
Skippy
