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TNT takeover?

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TNT takeover?

Old 23rd Feb 2012, 17:39
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Age: 79
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In 1986 I was employed as an FAA Check Airman and DC-10 captain based in JFK for a Part 121 carrier.

One night, my boss decided to sell the DC-10s.

I was told to go home and wait for a DC-8 course.

In the meantime, I had an interview with Fedex. The job offer was for the F/E's panel on their DC-10 and, at their rate of progress, it was going to take me at least 15 years to get back into the left seat. At the age of 45, I was too old for that idea.

Now, I am absolutely not complaining about that for such was their company seniority system.

If I was a TNT pilot right now and one of UPS or Fedex were to take over, I would be very worried about my future.

My advice would be to get the Belgian unions to insist upon an EASA AOC.

There are not many US pilots who are willing to convert to an EASA license.

In my 20 years with TNT, we only had one American captain who managed to leap through all of the hoops. (If you are still there John, maybe this is your moment of glory)!

Last edited by JW411; 23rd Feb 2012 at 18:05.
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Old 23rd Feb 2012, 17:44
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
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Hmm forgive me for asking....

But as I understand it from a freind, UPS sub contracts different European companies because they are simply not allowed to carry freight On domestic
Basis in Europe with US Crew/N reg A/C, Due to European regulations... If this is true... how Will This change Their Rights just because they buy TNT?? So Would they not still need the EU Crews and what not in order to fly IN Europe... ??

Or did I missunderstand something ?
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Old 23rd Feb 2012, 21:17
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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mj
They do use starair from Denmark for several routes that involve domestic sectors but last time I looked their VLC day stop came and went daily from/to BCN before the international sector to CGN on an N reg 767.May have changed not been there in a while.
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Old 23rd Feb 2012, 21:39
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Jok, hope you're fine!
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 22:25
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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UPS acquisition may question the status of TNT Airways

UPS acquisition may question the status of TNT Airways - Transport Intelligence - logistics research, analysis, solutions, services, trends, third party logistics.

UPS acquisition may question the status of TNT Airways
24/Feb/2012

The acquisition of TNT by UPS has thrown up what could evolve into a highly ironic situation. TNT has a wholly owned airline, TNT Airways SA, which is based at its European hub in Liege and which exists to provide TNT Express with an air freight network connecting all its locations throughout the world.

However, a change of ownership could have serious implications for the airline. TNT Airways SA is incorporated in Belgium and qualifies as a Belgian and EU carrier. This brings a number of privileges that include the company's use of Liege Airport, routings and reciprocal landing rights and trade arrangements.

As TNT itself sets out in its IPO prospectus published in 2011, changes in the company's shareholder base, such that the majority of the Ordinary Shares are held by non-EU shareholders, may result in TNT Airways no longer being able to benefit from its privileges. The airline may not be able to use certain airports, including its base at Liege. TNT admits that this could affect its revenues and profitability.

The situation calls to mind a very similar problem faced by DHL in the US. Due to airline ownership legislation, it was forced to sell a controlling stake in DHL Airways to a US corporation in 2003. However UPS and FedEx both challenged the ownership status saying that as the majority of work undertaken by the airline was for its largest customer, DHL, it was de facto, owned by a foreign enterprise. This argument was eventually thrown out by the US judicial system and the Department of Transportation.
Should the acquisition of TNT by UPS go ahead, TNT Airways may well be spun off to conform to EU legislation. However, there may be a case that the same issue exists over 'control' and 'ownership'. If DHL's management have long memories, they may well wish to test this issue in court.
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 23:06
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Dunno what the legalities of UPS ownership of a European airline are, but I suspect any such acquisition would be retained as a separate carrier and certificate. Why would UPS choose to incur the likely MUCH higher costs of their mainline pilots by merging another carrier into that one? Also AFAIK, UPS has a history of acquiring airlines with airplanes only, and not any crews...
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 23:16
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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The EU itself allows just less than 50 per cent foreign ownership of its airlines.

Open skies deal leaves US rules intact - FT.com

US laws that restrict foreigners from owning more than 25 per cent of voting stock in US airlines have long prompted concern in the EU.

The EU itself allows just less than 50 per cent foreign ownership of its airlines.
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Old 25th Feb 2012, 07:48
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Netherlands-based logistics magazine Nieuwsblad Transport just reported last week TNT is planning to cut a large portion of its fleet: (sorry, in Dutch only)

Nieuwsblad Transport > TNT halveert intercontinentale vrachtvloot

In short: about half of the 747/777 fleet will have to go, also part of the ageing shorthaul fleet will be parked.
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Old 25th Feb 2012, 09:04
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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I could see half of the 747's go or perhaps all of them. It depends on what the contract with Emirates is. But TNT can probably get rid of all the 747's and still cover the Emirates contract with the remaining 777's if they can't get out of it.

If UPS takes over I can't see them wanting to keep TNT Airways. A dozen or so 146's and 737's ain't much capacity and it's just down the road from Cologne.
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Old 25th Feb 2012, 17:27
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Haha polax.... Good one. Very intelligent... Step On your fellow aviators... May your ass be itching for a Month and your arms to short to reach it...
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Old 25th Feb 2012, 19:23
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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At least the Europeans (well, Ok, the Russians) can still put persons into space

yankees, go home
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Old 25th Feb 2012, 19:40
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Would there not be much to gain by buying TNT simply to dissolve it? I am sure FedEx would be happy to take their 777's off their hands. Sorry TNT employees, looks like the big boys in the global market wish to terminate your airline.
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Old 25th Feb 2012, 20:59
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry TNT employees, looks like the big boys in the global market wish to terminate your airline.
From what I know, nothing has been signed so far.

And even though UPS buying TNT would not sound very good for the airline, pay some respect for these guys (that are doing the same job as yours)...
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Old 25th Feb 2012, 23:13
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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I love how everyone gets an email stating the intention to aquire and advising not to discuss; then I look on PPRuNe and the thread is already in full swing!
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Old 26th Feb 2012, 11:00
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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TNT Airways is Biggest Airline nowadays, more or less on par with SN... and the best Airline to work for in Belgium. A closure would be again a total drama for the Belgian pilot community, and something that the Belgian government will NOT tolerate. A take-over in EU land is not without protection against simple liquidation. UPS can not simply close TNT airways. It needs to abide by Belgian legislation, US legislation has nothing to do with it as the airline is based in Belgium /EU.
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Old 26th Feb 2012, 11:36
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Despegue.

Not only the pilot's but all employees of TNT Airways should be very worried.
Not only could UPS dismantle the airline, quick or slow, but there is the problem of non EU/Belgian ownership. Intra EU and long haul traffic rights need EU/Belgian ownership of 51%.
How did Swiss and KLM solve this problem?
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Old 26th Feb 2012, 14:50
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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totolariko

pay some respect for these guys (that are doing the same job as yours)...
I was paying my respects...
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Old 26th Feb 2012, 15:29
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Web site indicates 3 777, 4 747-400

2 of the -400's are leased from Emirates and the 3 777's are leased from Guggenheim Aviation (so I've read on another forum)
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Old 27th Feb 2012, 20:43
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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B777:

OO-TSA/B are both leased from Guggenheim Aviation Partners (In TNT Airways colors)

N778SA leased from Southern Air Inc. (In TNT Airways colors)

B744

OO-THA leased from Guggenheim Aviation Partners (In TNT Airways colors)

OO-THB leased from Guggenheim Aviation Partners (In TNT Airways colors)

Both operate for TNT airways.

OO-THC leased from Guggenheim Aviation Partners (sub-leased to Emirates)

OO-THD leased from Guggenheim Aviation Partners (sub-leased to Emirates)

Both usually operate for Emirates as they are in EK Sky Cargo colors, but it is common to see -THA/B jump in when needed.
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Old 28th Feb 2012, 13:58
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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TNT Airways is Biggest Airline nowadays, more or less on par with SN... and the best Airline to work for in Belgium. A closure would be again a total drama for the Belgian pilot community, and something that the Belgian government will NOT tolerate. A take-over in EU land is not without protection against simple liquidation. UPS can not simply close TNT airways. It needs to abide by Belgian legislation, US legislation has nothing to do with it as the airline is based in Belgium /EU.
I hope you are right, but belgian federal gov will not fight for a regional interest and the regional gov is known to have very limited lobbying impact and technical knowledge.
What may save you is that there is not only the pilot community but 2200 workers on the ground.

Go light a candle, any help can count.
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