Asiana 747F missing?
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DGR , respectfully , when something in your safe , earth based office could go BOOM and kill you and your desk and chair I am sure you would want that item removed too. We don`t care how it`s packed , just get it off the damn aircraft.
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How are we certifying aircraft without fire suppression on the main decks of these aircraft! IALPA needs to start serious lobbying. As long as 'only' freighters are affected, nothing will change.
Once they go that's pretty much it, they require no external oxygen to burn and will resist just about all attempts to extinguish them.
IF (!) an uncontrollable battery fire indeed was the cause of this accident, then IMHO perhaps the handling, storage, packaging and transporting of electronic devices with Lithium batteries should be reviewed, not the fire fighting/suppression equipment.
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The Ap is reporting that the captian yelled fire. Is that enough evidence of a fire?
Official: Pilot on crashed South Korean cargo plane reported fire in final moments
By Associated Press, Published: July*27 | Updated: Thursday, July*28, 3:33*AM
SEOUL, South Korea — A pilot aboard an Asiana Airlines cargo plane that crashed Thursday in waters off a southern South Korean resort island reported a fire just before losing contact with air traffic workers, an official said.
The pilot yelled “Cargo fire!” and “Emergency!” about 10 minutes before the plane disappeared from radar screens, according to an air traffic official who declined to be named because the investigation was ongoing.
Official: Pilot on crashed South Korean cargo plane reported fire in final moments - The Washington Post
Official: Pilot on crashed South Korean cargo plane reported fire in final moments
By Associated Press, Published: July*27 | Updated: Thursday, July*28, 3:33*AM
SEOUL, South Korea — A pilot aboard an Asiana Airlines cargo plane that crashed Thursday in waters off a southern South Korean resort island reported a fire just before losing contact with air traffic workers, an official said.
The pilot yelled “Cargo fire!” and “Emergency!” about 10 minutes before the plane disappeared from radar screens, according to an air traffic official who declined to be named because the investigation was ongoing.
Official: Pilot on crashed South Korean cargo plane reported fire in final moments - The Washington Post
ditch
Sad news.
If it turns out to be a replay of the UPS6 crash, it means we have not learned from it - a lost opportunity.
A thought; if you have a true cargofire (not a false warning, but with real noticeable smoke), the airplane is a write off from that very moment. Even if you land it within minutes, it will almost certainly burn out.
So there's no need to save the plane, just it's occupants.
If there's not an airport in the immediate vicinity, put it on any flat piece of land or ditch it.
17 minutes is the average survivable time with a cargo or cabin fire. Anything over that and you're on borrowed time.
If it turns out to be a replay of the UPS6 crash, it means we have not learned from it - a lost opportunity.
A thought; if you have a true cargofire (not a false warning, but with real noticeable smoke), the airplane is a write off from that very moment. Even if you land it within minutes, it will almost certainly burn out.
So there's no need to save the plane, just it's occupants.
If there's not an airport in the immediate vicinity, put it on any flat piece of land or ditch it.
17 minutes is the average survivable time with a cargo or cabin fire. Anything over that and you're on borrowed time.
Last edited by Mariner; 28th Jul 2011 at 12:43.
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"Put it on a flat piece of land or ditch it."
Have to agree with Mariner. Ditch it as quickly as possible. In fact, since the Hudson river splash, ditching (both time available and minimum time available) has been included in our cyclical sim program.
Maggot
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Well, ditching could be an option, but don't forget that land on a river during daylight with nice weather is one thing, ditching a B747 into Pacific on the dark and with smoke in the cockpit is completely different, little chance of surviving...
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You have 15-17 minutes
After having read the available albeit limited information so far,
the following relies on memory so those of you with charts may have more accurate distances.
1. They were in contact with Shanghai Control when the fire was detected.
2. This means they were past FIR Boundary waypoint LAMEN. LAMEN is 150 nm from ZSPD ( Shanghai - Pudong )
3. Even if they were exactly at LAMEN they were 210 nm ( via airways) to RKPC (Jeju)
4. Therefore it seems they did not divert to the nearest airport - no idea of WX/ NOTAMS at the relevant airports.
5. They reported control problems at 7600' i.e. Less than 5 mins to landing in an emergency. I haven't flown the B744 in years but I remember some control cables run along the roof of the cargo compartment.
6. I acknowledge that emergency diversions into mainland China are not an attractive proposition and that Jeju was an online and probably maintenance base for OZ but IF(!) the above assumptions are true then once again all these cargo fire incidents say that you must have the airplane on the ground or water in 15-17 mins..
7. Not trying to to be a Monday morning quarter back and second guess the Captain as I wasn't there. Condolences to the families
the following relies on memory so those of you with charts may have more accurate distances.
1. They were in contact with Shanghai Control when the fire was detected.
2. This means they were past FIR Boundary waypoint LAMEN. LAMEN is 150 nm from ZSPD ( Shanghai - Pudong )
3. Even if they were exactly at LAMEN they were 210 nm ( via airways) to RKPC (Jeju)
4. Therefore it seems they did not divert to the nearest airport - no idea of WX/ NOTAMS at the relevant airports.
5. They reported control problems at 7600' i.e. Less than 5 mins to landing in an emergency. I haven't flown the B744 in years but I remember some control cables run along the roof of the cargo compartment.
6. I acknowledge that emergency diversions into mainland China are not an attractive proposition and that Jeju was an online and probably maintenance base for OZ but IF(!) the above assumptions are true then once again all these cargo fire incidents say that you must have the airplane on the ground or water in 15-17 mins..
7. Not trying to to be a Monday morning quarter back and second guess the Captain as I wasn't there. Condolences to the families
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Sully was very very lucky, I reckon the odds of surviving ditching at night on open water are pretty slim actually.. I say ban Lithium now and wait for the investigation.
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Had a chat with a few colleagues. Ditching an aircraft in the middle of the Atlantic or the Pacific is almost a death sentence. If you even survive the ditching, you will now face the prospect of drowning or freezing or starving in the middle of the huge ocean.
We threw around some ideas and one of the ideas was to stay up high, depressurize the aircraft (if main deck fire, as per the checklist), and PRAY that the fire will go out from lack of oxygen. Like I said, in the middle of the ocean, you must be very lucky to have an airfield within 17 minutes. Even then, Asiana lost contact within 11 minutes.
We threw around some ideas and one of the ideas was to stay up high, depressurize the aircraft (if main deck fire, as per the checklist), and PRAY that the fire will go out from lack of oxygen. Like I said, in the middle of the ocean, you must be very lucky to have an airfield within 17 minutes. Even then, Asiana lost contact within 11 minutes.
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A thought; if you have a true cargofire (not a false warning, but with real noticeable smoke), the airplane is a write off from that very moment. Even if you land it within minutes, it will almost certainly burn out.
So there's no need to save the plane, just it's occupants.
If there's not an airport in the immediate vicinity, put it on any flat piece of land or ditch it.
17 minutes is the average survivable time with a cargo or cabin fire. Anything over that and you're on borrowed time.
So there's no need to save the plane, just it's occupants.
If there's not an airport in the immediate vicinity, put it on any flat piece of land or ditch it.
17 minutes is the average survivable time with a cargo or cabin fire. Anything over that and you're on borrowed time.
Investigating the cause of the fire (uncontrollable battery fire or not), decision making, finding suitable terrain/water and subsequent ditching from a normal 744 cruising level within 17 minutes would be totally unrealistic IMHO.
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They reported control problems at 7600' i.e. Less than 5 mins to landing in an emergency
I know that's what the airline said, but I wonder if they meant 7,600m given that it's Chinese airspace. Doesn't make sense to be down at 7,600ft halfway to Shanghai.
I know that's what the airline said, but I wonder if they meant 7,600m given that it's Chinese airspace. Doesn't make sense to be down at 7,600ft halfway to Shanghai.
Sounds like the UPS. As you descend into thicker air the fire turns violent.
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overmars....
Had a chat with a few colleagues. Ditching an aircraft in the middle of the Atlantic or the Pacific is almost a death sentence. If you even survive the ditching, you will now face the prospect of drowning or freezing or starving in the middle of the huge ocean. We threw around some ideas and one of the ideas was to stay up high, depressurize the aircraft (if main deck fire, as per the checklist), and PRAY that the fire will go out from lack of oxygen.
The B747s that I'm flying are equipped with life rafts. With today's GPS position accuracy, rescue services would find your ELT equipped, bobbing life raft before you'd "starve to death."
During an over ocean uncontrolled fire I will not pray; I will make a controlled ditching after 15min emergency descent while I can still read some instruments ...BEFORE being completely smoked out and subject to an uncontrolled crash.
