Turbine DC-3s

[Bla Bla Bla]

Don't shoot me down in flames if this info is incorrect, but when I was flying (sep) in Africa, I got to know a guy who flew contract on the turbine DC3's up north. He told me they used to take about 20tons into a 400m strip and take out 15 tons out from a 500m strip. He said these were the shortest strips they operated from, seemed like a good guy is that info sounding correct.

[ABUKABOY]

No that is NOT sounding correct!! Given that a turbo DC-3 will have a lower APS weight due to the lighter engines, that statement is still way wide of the mark. Across seven DC-3's, our freighter config APS weights varied from 8138 to 8553kgs, (type of floor, totally stripped out or pax overhead racks left in etc etc), and if we assume the up-to-date MTOW of 12,200 kgs, this gave a useful load, after allowing for 90 mins fuel, (120 I.G.), of between 3261 and 3647 kgs.
So, 15-20 tons? Put it through the door and bust the aeroplane before it even turns a wheel, I would suggest.
Having said that, I once nearly took a max HP-7 Herald load out of Bournemouth; luckily the old girl told me in no uncertain terms that she was not going to fly like that even as we taxied out, or rather wallowed in the general direction of the holding point.
Throw all caution to the winds and yes, she will operate from 400-500 yard strips, but no accelerate/stop possibility, and an operating-speed/decision grey area as big as a battleship.
Nice guy maybe, but what grade of alcohol was he on?

[Dengue_Dude]

No, I don't think so.

Blimey a Hercules could barely lift that much, let alone get it into a short strip (I know it CAN be done, but with bugger all fuel onboard etc etc - but not for a Dak)

[AAL]

Bla Bla Bla, that is exactly what the bloke told you, bla bla bla. It must have been after quite a few frosties.

TP DC-3 going to take nothing in or out of a 500m strip not even itself, and going to stop on its nose if it tries.

TECH INFO

MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE TAKE-OFF WEIGHT
13 154 kg
BASIC EMPTY WEIGHT
6 962 kg
2 CREW @ 91 kg
182 kg
EMPTY OPERATING WEIGHT
7 144 kg
MAXIMUM LOAD
6 010 kg
MAXIMUM FUEL LOAD
3 224 kg
MAXIMUM USEABLE FUEL
3 190 kg
MAXIMUM LOAD WITH MAXIMUM FUEL
2 786 kg
VFR RESERVE – 45 min @ 371 kg/hr
272 kg
BURN-OFF
408 kg/hr
TAS
170 kts
AVAILABLE EN-ROUTE FUEL – FULL TANKS EXCL RES
2 918 kg


WEIGHTS

MAXIMUM WEIGHTS (lbs./kg)Ramp Weight29,300 lbs/13290 kgMaximum Take-Off Weight29,000/13154Maximum Landing Weight28,750/13041Maximum Weight in Cargo Compartment11,790/5347.9Maximum Zero Fuel Weight26,200/11884
STANDARD AIRPLANE WEIGHTS (lbs.)Standard Empty Weight15,710/7125.9Maximum Useful Load (including ramp fuel)13,590/6164.3
CARGO SPACE Main Compartment (S.F.)287.6Lavatory Compartment (S.F.)15.0Cargo Door Size (in. wide x in. high)84 inches x 56 inches
2.13360x1.42240 Meters
SPECIFIC LOADING Wing Loading (lbs. per sqr. ft.)28.7/13.018 kilos per S.F.Power Loading (lbs. per hp)10.2/4.6266 kilos per

TAKE OFF PERFORMANCE

STALL SPEED. (CLEAN)
69 KIAS.
STALL SPEED
(GEAR + FLAPS, EXTENDED)
64 KIAS.
V1
78 KIAS.
VR
80 KIAS.
V2
86 KIAS.
T/O DIST. (TO 35 ft)
3600 ft
ACC/ STOP DIST
3220 ft
FIRST SEGMENT CLIMB
1.9% Gross Grad.
SECOND SEGMENT CLIMB
4.0% Gross Grad.
EN ROUTE CLIMB. (2000 ft AGL)
2.1% Gross Grad.


LANDING PERFORMANCE

APPROACH SPEED VREF.
84 KIAS
LANDING DIST. (50 ft OBSTACLE)
2750 ft. (NO REVERSE POWER)
APPROACH CLIMB
4.0% Gross. Grad.
BALKED LANDING CLIMB
5.2% Gross. Grad.

NOTE:TAKE OFF AND LANDING PERFORMANCE TABLES SHOWN ASSUME
WIND= 0 kts AND RUNWAY SLOPE = 0%.

[aseanaero]

I heard 'legends' of DC-3s getting in and out of 800 to 1,000m strips fully loaded but the reality seems to be 1,200 to 1,400m

Thanks for the contributions so far

[barit1]

The legends about "getting out" are likely true, but there are many "what ifs" to be answered.

In wartime, C-47s were often loaded far above their certified MTOW - but they had NO OEI capability. Blow a jug, and you were going to land quickly, probably not where you prefer. To do this in peacetime, in a civilized country, is criminal behavior. Ditto operating from a strip shorter than the ship's accelerate-stop requirement.

Don't confuse apples and pineapples.

[Grizzly Bare]

Basler -67 performance from the FM, for S/L at ISA+20* (35*C).
Climb weight limit = 26,550lbs, MTOW 28,750 available at -7.5*C.
A/Go (over 35ft) for 28,750lbs = 5,600ft, A/Go for 26,550lbs = 3,750ft.
A/Stop Dist for 28,750lbs = 4,667ft, A/Stop Dist for 26,550ft = 3,750ft.
Landing Dist (over 50ft) for 28,750lbs = 3,650ft, Landing Dist for 26,550ft = 3,100ft.

Unfortunately the standard FAA FM from Basler is very "light" when it comes to fuel consumption figures, we ended up using modified Beech 1900D power/fuel flow tables (as 1900D has -67D engines and Basler has -67R engines), with no ramp weight or taxi/takeoff fuel burn published.
Typically 8000ft at ISA+20 we would achieve 180KTAS at 900lbs/hr

Empty weight of our aircraft was 16,335lbs, so typical max fuel & payload for 26,550lbs TOW was 10,215lbs (4,632kg)

[Grizzly Bare]

South African -65AR performance from the FM, for S/L at ISA+20* (35*C).
With APR - MTOW = 29,000lbs
Climb weight limit = 28,200lbs, MTOW 29,000 available at 26*C.
A/Go (over 35ft) for 29,000lbs = 5,667ft, A/Go for 28,200lbs = 5,333ft.
A/Stop Dist for 29,000lbs = 4,333ft, A/Stop Dist for 28,200ft = 4,750ft.
Landing Dist (over 50ft) for 29,000lbs = 3,667ft, Landing Dist for 28,200ft = 3,400ft.

Without APR - MTOW = 26,900lbs
Climb weight limit = 26,1500lbs, MTOW 26,900 available at 21*C.
A/Go (over 35ft) for 26,150lbs = 4,400ft, A/Go for 26,900lbs = 4,800ft.
A/Stop Dist for 26,150lbs = 3,500ft, A/Stop Dist for 26,900lbs = 4,667ft.
Landing Dist (over 50ft) for 26,150lbs = 2,900ft, Landing Dist for 26,900ft = 3,050ft.

Again, unfortunately the standard South African FM from Wonder Air is very "light" when it comes to fuel consumption figures, we ended up using modified Beech 1900C power/fuel flow tables (as 1900C has -65 engines and these turbince DC3's have -65AR engines), with no taxi/takeoff fuel burn published.
The same as the Basler, typically 8000ft at ISA+20 we would achieve 180KTAS at 900lbs/hr

Ramp Wt = 29,300lbs.
Empty weight of our aircraft was 14,845lbs, so typical max fuel & payload for 28,200lbs TOW was 13,355lbs (6,056kg)

[aseanaero]

I spoke with the operator last week and they'll be looking at a Caribou next year , the turbine DC-3 won't cut the strip lengths they have to operate into , the DHC-4 does everything they want with a good safety margin except it burns avgas and the R-2000 seems unable to make TBO (other operators I spoke to said figure on 800hrs for an engine). Should be fun for the pilots.

[411A]

DHC-5 would be much better....if you can find one.

[barit1]

DHC-5 would be much better....if you can find one.

Agreed, but if you're operating in sand/dust, you'd better find someone who's invented an inlet particle separator. I've seen compressors badly eroded after 1000 hrs.

[rigpiggy]

Look at the Penturbo.com -67 DHC-4 re-engine.

WEIGHTS
Design Take-off Weight

28,500 lbs.

Design Landing Weight

28,500 lbs.

Maximum Zero Fuel Weight

27,000 lbs.

Maximum Payload

10,000 lbs.

Maximum Fuel
(Internal Tanks)

5540 lbs

PERFORMANCE SUMMARY

The following is a summary of the performance data that applies under ISA conditions at the design gross weight of 28,500 lbs. Takeoff and landing distances are given at sea level, zero wind, and from a dry level surface.

TAKE-OFF AND LANDING: SHORT FIELD TECHNIQUE (STOL)
Aircraft Operating Data – PART 8 Charts



Take-off (flaps 25º, both engines at T.O. power)


Ground Run

800 ft

Total distance to clear 50-ft. obstacle

1300 ft

Landing (Flaps 40º)

Ground Run

425 ft

Total distance from 50-ft. obstacle

945 ft

TAKE-OFF AND LANDING: AIRLINE TECHNIQUE (FAR 25)
Take-off (flaps 7º engines at T.O. power)
Ground Run

1630 ft

Total distance to 35-ft obstacle

2550 ft

Take-off (Flaps 7º)
One engine inop. at V1 to 35-ft obstacle

3955 ft

Landing (Flaps 30º)
Ground Run

1100 ft

Total Distance from 35-ft. obstacle

2250 ft