Overweight Load Detection - Remotely ?
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Overweight Load Detection - Remotely ?
The problem : Imagine you are responsible for the safe and profitable operation of a couple of turboprop freighters (5 tonne capacity) operating in an area (about 5,000kms from head office) known for off the books 'cash and carry' operations involving ALL out-station staff of most of the operators in that area (ground crew and air crew) for carrying freight over and above what's on the manifest frequently into a dangerous overload situation, how do you detect this from operational stats ?
There have been a number of fatal accidents by other operators in this area where being overweight (plus bad weather or engine failures) were factors and there is also the economic issues (maintenance) as the aircraft are being pushed to perform overweight.
Assume that whatever load program or checks and balances that you put in place will be worked around by on-site local staff (eventually).
The only easy and workable solution I can see to detect this at a high level from operational statistics is analysing fuel burn per run as a heavier aircraft will burn more fuel for the same mission (and the 'guys' probably wouldn't go to the lengths of topping the tanks up with fuel at their own expense).
OK, there are variables like weather , taxying , holding etc but which would give a range of fuel burns for the same mission but they should fall within a range of plus or minus X% for an aircraft being operated within accordance with the POH.
An aircraft which is say 20% overweight should show up as an anomaly with a much higher fuel burn. Correct ?
The operator will probably have to hire an expat as an on-site ops manager to make sure things are kept legal , safe and without abusing the aircraft. Looking for ideas how we can build some checks into the ops statistics also.
Thanks
There have been a number of fatal accidents by other operators in this area where being overweight (plus bad weather or engine failures) were factors and there is also the economic issues (maintenance) as the aircraft are being pushed to perform overweight.
Assume that whatever load program or checks and balances that you put in place will be worked around by on-site local staff (eventually).
The only easy and workable solution I can see to detect this at a high level from operational statistics is analysing fuel burn per run as a heavier aircraft will burn more fuel for the same mission (and the 'guys' probably wouldn't go to the lengths of topping the tanks up with fuel at their own expense).
OK, there are variables like weather , taxying , holding etc but which would give a range of fuel burns for the same mission but they should fall within a range of plus or minus X% for an aircraft being operated within accordance with the POH.
An aircraft which is say 20% overweight should show up as an anomaly with a much higher fuel burn. Correct ?
The operator will probably have to hire an expat as an on-site ops manager to make sure things are kept legal , safe and without abusing the aircraft. Looking for ideas how we can build some checks into the ops statistics also.
Thanks
Last edited by aseanaero; 2nd May 2009 at 10:41.
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Assume there is a 'team' working at both ends of the mission working together and covering each other to operate the aircraft overweight.
This system has been operating for decades in this part of the world (especially in remote areas) and is thoroughly entrenched in the culture of ops staff of most operators here.
We are looking for ways to break that culture.
One of the biggest obstacles to safe operation in Indonesia is finding honest staff.
Spot checks will be done as part of internal monitoring by a separate group (assume trustworthy) unannounced but they can't be done on every load .
As an example if you found the fuel burn was X per kg prior to a visit by the independent team then dropped for the week the monitoring team was there and then went back to X when they left that would be a good indicator something was going on.
So when establishing the operation and staying on site keeping an eye on fuel burn vs cargo loads for a few months we would have a good basis for what is the range of normal fuel burn for the mission then if it started being significantly above that 'norm' we could go back and have a look at what's going on.
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This system has been operating for decades in this part of the world (especially in remote areas) and is thoroughly entrenched in the culture of ops staff of most operators here.
We are looking for ways to break that culture.
One of the biggest obstacles to safe operation in Indonesia is finding honest staff.
Spot checks will be done as part of internal monitoring by a separate group (assume trustworthy) unannounced but they can't be done on every load .
As an example if you found the fuel burn was X per kg prior to a visit by the independent team then dropped for the week the monitoring team was there and then went back to X when they left that would be a good indicator something was going on.
So when establishing the operation and staying on site keeping an eye on fuel burn vs cargo loads for a few months we would have a good basis for what is the range of normal fuel burn for the mission then if it started being significantly above that 'norm' we could go back and have a look at what's going on.
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Last edited by aseanaero; 2nd May 2009 at 10:45.
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Invest in a decent professional Loadmaster. We know most of the tricks... You can buy portable scales (about the size of a small suitcase, containing pressure pads - you can put an entire pallet on them..). They're not cheap, but then again...
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Hi CR2,
Agree that a professional loadmaster (professional means one with ethics) is the best solution but may not be possible due to work permits as the job 'can be done locally'.
The local loadmasters are usually the ring leaders.
Agree that a professional loadmaster (professional means one with ethics) is the best solution but may not be possible due to work permits as the job 'can be done locally'.
The local loadmasters are usually the ring leaders.
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You may be on the right track with fuel burn, but only as a "gross error check". Know that this will also vary with cruise altitudes actually flown.
From a flight deck point of view, excess weight is indicated by higher pitch attitudes when flown with otherwise normal airspeeds on normal flight paths ie - normal glide slope approach /landing path segments.
From a flight deck point of view, excess weight is indicated by higher pitch attitudes when flown with otherwise normal airspeeds on normal flight paths ie - normal glide slope approach /landing path segments.
Last edited by L-38; 2nd May 2009 at 15:30.
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Hi L-38
It's only a 45 min flight between the airfields so the fuel burn should be within a range once we have enough flight data.
Initial flights are with an expat check and training captain as it's a new type being used so we should be able to get some good data while he's there.
It was only intended as a 'gross error' check , there are too many variables to pin a narrow range of fuel burn on the crew, don't want to create a 'new' problem which may affect flight safety
It's only a 45 min flight between the airfields so the fuel burn should be within a range once we have enough flight data.
Initial flights are with an expat check and training captain as it's a new type being used so we should be able to get some good data while he's there.
It was only intended as a 'gross error' check , there are too many variables to pin a narrow range of fuel burn on the crew, don't want to create a 'new' problem which may affect flight safety
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Sounds like you are talking about DJJ/WMX? Overloading there depends who you are working for, not all of them are too bad (at least it used to be like that). However if it is going to be local flight crew, the only thing you can do it to put YOUR on-site manager to monitor cargo presentation and loading.
There are up to 10% variations in flight times on this route, combined with 5t turboprop's marginal difference in fuel burn between different weights, I'm a bit doubt you looking into right area to be monitored.
There are up to 10% variations in flight times on this route, combined with 5t turboprop's marginal difference in fuel burn between different weights, I'm a bit doubt you looking into right area to be monitored.
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Thanks for the input CargoOne
From the growing number of unserviceable aircraft parked at the departure airport and then the recent fatal accidents in the area I think things have got worse since you were there.
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From the growing number of unserviceable aircraft parked at the departure airport and then the recent fatal accidents in the area I think things have got worse since you were there.
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Last time I've been there it was already like an airplanes graveyard. Are those few broken C160 Transaals still there?
p.s. honestly I believe majority of incidents/accidents there due to low operating standards & culture, sometimes low maintenance standards, rather than overloading.
p.s. honestly I believe majority of incidents/accidents there due to low operating standards & culture, sometimes low maintenance standards, rather than overloading.
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Agree with what you said but overloading is also a factor.
Transalls are still in there , one is a pile of scrap after the fire on landing.
Transalls are still in there , one is a pile of scrap after the fire on landing.
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Overweight?
Specific to type ODMs should certainly indicate by performance whether as aircraft is overweight or not. T/O and Ldg distances, rate of climb, failure to reach target speeds etc. Unfortunately this information is available only afterflight, and I suspect in some instances this has probably been too late! Is there such a thing in existence as an aircraft weigh bridge? Just think if there was such a thing, one at each R/W marshalling point, a little bit like the DOT roadside weigh stations. But even if this was possible you would have to have "non" corrupt operators!!
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Yes there is such thing as a weigh-bridge.. Bogota/Columbia has (had) one and (would) often send a 747F over for a check (those who know BOG geography know that performance is not to be trifled with). I haven't been there in a while, so don't know if it is still operative. As an indicator, B744F MTOW 398T was restricted to about 330T IIRC out of there. Circling climb in a bowl of mountains.
At what cost... and before anyone says anything, cost is everything these days. Risk analysis etc etc (which means "acceptable" risk for minimum cost, and no, I cannot define "acceptable")
At what cost... and before anyone says anything, cost is everything these days. Risk analysis etc etc (which means "acceptable" risk for minimum cost, and no, I cannot define "acceptable")
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Counting Fuel Does Not Work
Problem here is that the same guys who are smart enough to manipulate all load data on all of the ends of your cargo run, are also smart enough to create fuel consumption data to match the expectations. This on top of the fact that some of the fuel you pay for never makes your fuel tank but gets sold off by the mechanics (traditionally in charge of refuelling) in cooperation with the fuel truck drivers.
Nothing beats having honest, non-corrupt (and well paid) flight crew. One well run operator in the area gives the pilots the right to do re-weights at any time (even if it delays the flight) and confirm that what is on the manifest is the correct number. If discrepancies are found, the customers (who are normally providing the load and manifest) are fined US$ 20.000 for the 1st offence, and contract termination for the 2nd.
Nothing beats having honest, non-corrupt (and well paid) flight crew. One well run operator in the area gives the pilots the right to do re-weights at any time (even if it delays the flight) and confirm that what is on the manifest is the correct number. If discrepancies are found, the customers (who are normally providing the load and manifest) are fined US$ 20.000 for the 1st offence, and contract termination for the 2nd.
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FE's and LM's
I do believe you have just made a case for carrying Flt Engs and Loadmasters as an integral part of any cargo crew!! I also find it hard to imagine any crew worth its salt not detecting a discrepancy between planned fuel load and actual fuel in tanks, presupposing the guages on the flight deck are "reasonably" accurate, a few gallons maybe!! It is an added advantage if the crews operate the same airframes again and again, in the small company I worked for the crews new individual frames so well that their fuel calculations were on many occasions more accurate than the CFPs!
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This on top of the fact that some of the fuel you pay for never makes your fuel tank but gets sold off by the mechanics (traditionally in charge of refuelling) in cooperation with the fuel truck drivers.
The operation will start running soon a few months from now so we'll see if my theory is correct.
The good part is we have an expat check and training captain for 6 months and that will give a good baseline for what's normal.
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Not on your scale but...
I have has to land prematurely to pick up more fuel twice as a result of a customer that was shaving the numbers off the pallet weights operating an MD-11. Probably easier to calculate fuel burn.
I have has to land prematurely to pick up more fuel twice as a result of a customer that was shaving the numbers off the pallet weights operating an MD-11. Probably easier to calculate fuel burn.
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PM me and I will put you in touch with a company that makes ultra thin pad scales use them both ends not expensive when compared with an overstressed /wrecked airplane
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I'm afraid those scales will end up stolen... At origin airport there are local boys playing football on the grass between taxiways and runway, destination airport is a home of cannibals. I'm not joking.
I've used a set of motorsport corner weight gauges for weighing pallets, four pads, connected to a central read out/print unit. Low profile pads, a fraction of the price of industry sourced units.
Quick interweb search: Professional Model Scales | Computer Scales & Accessories | Demon Tweeks Motorsport, Motorcycle, Car Modifying, Parts and Accessories,Sparco, Arai.
Cheers,
Quick interweb search: Professional Model Scales | Computer Scales & Accessories | Demon Tweeks Motorsport, Motorcycle, Car Modifying, Parts and Accessories,Sparco, Arai.
Cheers,
