Polar/Atlas The Saga Continues
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 65
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by belowmins
Nitty
I have no interest in compiling a list of who (if anyone) from Polar sent in authorization cards. My interest is in finding out what leads you to believe that whaledriver101 will "Judging from the card response" be "in the minority on the Polar side". You seem to be indicating that you have information that, according to your last post, would cost the rest of us mere mortals a hefty fine and a stretch in a federal prison.
I have no interest in compiling a list of who (if anyone) from Polar sent in authorization cards. My interest is in finding out what leads you to believe that whaledriver101 will "Judging from the card response" be "in the minority on the Polar side". You seem to be indicating that you have information that, according to your last post, would cost the rest of us mere mortals a hefty fine and a stretch in a federal prison.
It has been proven that the Polar Council cannot be trusted with confidential information as you asked for earlier. Exampled by the company delivery of the Atlas crew list for merger purposes to Polar which resulted in the Polar council creating a Scab list just a few days later with all the same misspellings and errors as the company supplied crew roster. Coincidence? Not!
Your questioning of the missing filed NMB attachment list led me to this conclusion due to Polars past actions. Your Council has a habit of sanctioning the creation of these lists to intimidate others (illegal scab lists, snake lists, and what ever other lists compiled since those). The Polar Council doing such again in this case could result in federal prosecution of those individuals. Not just a limp ALPA disciplinary action like on a previous list created by the Polar council.
So you will not get any specific info from me. If someone decides to make a new list anyway, by guessing or just faking it with names in disfavor, I'm sure there will be a fine or a cell for them somewhere. Hopefully with a cell mate being paid a couple of cartons of smokes a week to make sure they can't s*!t right during their stay.
On another subject, I was given this just recently. It's a cargo airline contract comparison done by ALPA. Since Polar is always bringing up their contract and how superior it is, I thought I would put this up from a party outside of Atlas and Polar argument albeit from ALPA.
Cargo Contract Comparison March 08 in pdf
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 21st Jun 2008 at 02:30.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Navarre
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know that BillyBob just started with a position and a salary that makes me jealous and I make more than I did flying in Japan. He won't be flip burgers but he may a buy few places and hire you to do it.
Statements like yours diminishes my opinion of you.
You guys better quit the bickering before the management slime a AAWWH puts everyone out of business.
Statements like yours diminishes my opinion of you.
You guys better quit the bickering before the management slime a AAWWH puts everyone out of business.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This anonymous comment was posted on the Atlas for Teamsters web site.
After everything Dave Bourne has done for us, He deserves our support.
1. He has been an avid leader gaining Alpa's support. (wait we're going Teamsters)
2. He attained a hard fought contract with industry leading pay. ( Oh yeah, good hourly pay, the rest of the contract written by company lawyers costing us 17 days a month, extendable to 21 and junior manned to 24 days per month.)
3. He helped establish out bases (31 days at an out base for a small payback, and allows us to double out heavy time on the road costing me even more time with my family)
4. Worked hard to establish basing. ( Ya, this turned into gateway basing, adding to my taxable income. Good Deal)
5. Guaranteed a Combined Contract. (wait, this lead to 3 years without a pay raise with no way out)
WHY AM I FOLLOWING DAVE BOURNE TO THE TEAMSTERS?
Atlas Pilots For Teamasters
After everything Dave Bourne has done for us, He deserves our support.
1. He has been an avid leader gaining Alpa's support. (wait we're going Teamsters)
2. He attained a hard fought contract with industry leading pay. ( Oh yeah, good hourly pay, the rest of the contract written by company lawyers costing us 17 days a month, extendable to 21 and junior manned to 24 days per month.)
3. He helped establish out bases (31 days at an out base for a small payback, and allows us to double out heavy time on the road costing me even more time with my family)
4. Worked hard to establish basing. ( Ya, this turned into gateway basing, adding to my taxable income. Good Deal)
5. Guaranteed a Combined Contract. (wait, this lead to 3 years without a pay raise with no way out)
WHY AM I FOLLOWING DAVE BOURNE TO THE TEAMSTERS?
Last edited by trashhauler; 26th Jun 2008 at 19:09. Reason: Additional comment
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's official, Atlas MEC was notified that N516MC will be returned to Atlas on 1 Aug '08 and all Polar classic drivers will begin -400 training beginning of Aug. Polar FE's offered a deal to come over to Atlas temporally until combined contract is done.
And before all you Polaroids have a cow about why Atlas MEC was notified, the FE deal requires both MEC's to agree to the terms.
Also official, is the two classics being returned from Tradewinds, will be activated to the Atlas fleet, upgrades and hiring to follow.
And before all you Polaroids have a cow about why Atlas MEC was notified, the FE deal requires both MEC's to agree to the terms.
Also official, is the two classics being returned from Tradewinds, will be activated to the Atlas fleet, upgrades and hiring to follow.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 65
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come on now trash. We know better.
1. Gained ALPA support until ALPA Pres. Prater's election.
2. 17 day month with involuntary extension up to 4 more days at increased pay. There is no junior manning to 24 days.
3. Outbasing was established before the contract and continued. They are voluntary and not assignable.
4. Worked at getting gateway basing. While the taxing was a by-product of the company to leverage taxes against us to get rid of it. They have used it against Polaroids also on their hotels at their bases (i.e. reserve at base and getting taxed on the hotel). It has it's advantages for the Atlas crews. Such as when all the Polaroids bases are closed and only ANC is open. Atlas crews would get tickets to work and hotels when they close their bases. Polar crews get a moving allowance should they choose to move to their new base and commuters just get what is left of their travel bank which won't last long. So Polaroids living in ANC will do great and the remaining Polar crews are just SOL trying to find their way to work in ANC begining Sept 2008. Enjoy that commuting guys!
5. Combined contract failure is not any fault of Dave Bourne. That lays squarely on the shoulders of the Polar MEC and ALPA National depending on which time frame of the on-again off-again on-again merger BS you want to talk about. Here we are with Polar's contract a year into it's amendable date with nothing happening on that side other than filing grievances that are being found in favor of the company. So what do they say about rocks in glass houses? Thanks for log jambing the Atlas side on getting a new contract during this process. This is probably the main reason for the push for Teamsters. The influence for votes (Polar votes for Prater and Prater jumps for Polar) in the union infighting vs doing what is right.
WHY AM I FOLLOWING DAVE BOURNE TO THE TEAMSTERS? Integrety and doing the right thing for all, not just a select few.
After your wrong disection of the Atlas contract, I would like to say Polar did well with their first contract negotiated with a weaker management group prior to Atlas purchasing them. I'm not advocating Atlas management, just saying they are ruthless.
Since then, you have gained little. You went on strike and came back to a contract that had less than what was offered on the table prior to the lock out. Now you are a year into it's amendable date sharing a similar problem with the Atlas crews.
1. Gained ALPA support until ALPA Pres. Prater's election.
2. 17 day month with involuntary extension up to 4 more days at increased pay. There is no junior manning to 24 days.
3. Outbasing was established before the contract and continued. They are voluntary and not assignable.
4. Worked at getting gateway basing. While the taxing was a by-product of the company to leverage taxes against us to get rid of it. They have used it against Polaroids also on their hotels at their bases (i.e. reserve at base and getting taxed on the hotel). It has it's advantages for the Atlas crews. Such as when all the Polaroids bases are closed and only ANC is open. Atlas crews would get tickets to work and hotels when they close their bases. Polar crews get a moving allowance should they choose to move to their new base and commuters just get what is left of their travel bank which won't last long. So Polaroids living in ANC will do great and the remaining Polar crews are just SOL trying to find their way to work in ANC begining Sept 2008. Enjoy that commuting guys!
5. Combined contract failure is not any fault of Dave Bourne. That lays squarely on the shoulders of the Polar MEC and ALPA National depending on which time frame of the on-again off-again on-again merger BS you want to talk about. Here we are with Polar's contract a year into it's amendable date with nothing happening on that side other than filing grievances that are being found in favor of the company. So what do they say about rocks in glass houses? Thanks for log jambing the Atlas side on getting a new contract during this process. This is probably the main reason for the push for Teamsters. The influence for votes (Polar votes for Prater and Prater jumps for Polar) in the union infighting vs doing what is right.
WHY AM I FOLLOWING DAVE BOURNE TO THE TEAMSTERS? Integrety and doing the right thing for all, not just a select few.
After your wrong disection of the Atlas contract, I would like to say Polar did well with their first contract negotiated with a weaker management group prior to Atlas purchasing them. I'm not advocating Atlas management, just saying they are ruthless.
Since then, you have gained little. You went on strike and came back to a contract that had less than what was offered on the table prior to the lock out. Now you are a year into it's amendable date sharing a similar problem with the Atlas crews.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
. . . deal requires both MEC's to agree to the terms. . .
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All Polar FE's being offered to the Atlas side Whale, or just those crewing N516MC?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
trashauler:
There is no junior manning at Atlas. Fuzzy math can even come up with your numbers. Sorry.
Outbasing is an established system and voluntary. No one is doing it that does not want too. Maybe they hate their wife. Or need the money for reasons that are not our business. But not a labor issue. Sorry.
As for the rest – pretty much the same. What next? UFO abduction?
That would be a good thread. "UFO Abduction of Bourne Results in Nasal Implant--Cato Seen on X-Files!"
There is no junior manning at Atlas. Fuzzy math can even come up with your numbers. Sorry.
Outbasing is an established system and voluntary. No one is doing it that does not want too. Maybe they hate their wife. Or need the money for reasons that are not our business. But not a labor issue. Sorry.
As for the rest – pretty much the same. What next? UFO abduction?
That would be a good thread. "UFO Abduction of Bourne Results in Nasal Implant--Cato Seen on X-Files!"
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems kind of ironic that August is the projected date for the training of crews. Hmm . . gee, wonder what the timeline is for the vote for Teamsters? We all know it's coming just a matter of when. But as you can tell by my screen name I don't know anything and only here to listen.
Yep it takes about two months to train so enjoy your training and then get ready for ANC about October!
Yep it takes about two months to train so enjoy your training and then get ready for ANC about October!
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At this point, it's probably a mute point, because the Polar MEC never agrees to anything. They'd rather grieve it.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 742
There is no junior manning at Atlas.
Don't say it doesn't happen. I had one of ya'll on a flight. He said the company was taking 3 X-days, and they moved X days around. It wasn't by his permission. Personally, I felt bad for the guy. He was nice and social.
[rant] How did the culture get to this point? At the end of the day, it's OUR, collective, quality of life being affected. Those in the 10577 zip code go home at 1700 and spend weekends coaching little league or boating. I guarantee if they had to stay an extra hour in the office, they'd pitch a fit. While I certainly understand the Atlas' pilots being upset due to a delay to an improved life promised by the company when a merger is completed, there must be understanding of the reasons for Polar pilots actions.
Scope, scope, scope. Issue number one. Let's say the pilots are removed from the PO certificate. The CO has a letter to use a third party contractor for pilots for PO. Everyone assumes that this will be pilots leased from AAWH's Crew Leasing division (as envisioned in all the quarterly and public presentations). However, the elephant in the room is another AABO-like situation with them hiring outside a combined seniority list. Unless a scope clause prevents it, promises and intentions don't put food on the table. Unless there is specific and steadfast language to prevent such a perversion to the pilot group of AAWH, as has historically been demonstrated, this is a VERY real and specific threat to the pilot group.
CBA enforcement. If the company is allowed to interpret the CBA in their best interest (which no one can expect otherwise) with no action from a pilot group, why have a CBA? Yes, I know, I know. This isn't my first shop under the draconian RLA. Delays suck. However, what precedent is set when a CBA is allowed to be violated willie-nillie? A CBA is a full-meal deal. It's not ala-cart. The MEC negotiates the CBA, not individual pilots. That's when you hear "Yeah, but CA Bubba waived this part" from sked on the phone.
At the end of the day, while the "scab" issues still spark up people, the appropriate authorites ruled on the 5Y fiasco, and a coulda-woulda situation equates to a no-action. We all have to get over it. Quit throwing feces at each other.
It's time to stand up, stand together, and act like we work for the 3rd largest US cargo carrier (by FTK's of course) instead of a bunch of high school football heros trying to live off the state championship they coulda had.[/rant]
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 65
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think one crew group has attempted numerous times to try an cooperate and get things done to absolutely no avail. Usually to their detriment to get along and work things out. I have yet to see any level of cooperation reciprocated from the other side. Only grabs at gains for themselves.
Maybe that is why the Atlas side (along with a number of Polar crews) have gotten fed up and have gone looking for other representation. 92%+ of just Atlas crews says a lot. Hopefully putting things back on an even keel instead of this votes for influence exhibited in the past at ALPA National.
Lets get a combined contract with scope. Your scenario fits what the Polar MEC wants heard, but little with the actual facts at hand. I can't remember if it was you or another that had the republic CBA out their (Teamsters Neg. BTW) which would even hold the holding company to the CBA and scope. It would not be hard to incorporate that into the proposed merger of two certificates one pilot group scenario (like Air Micronesia/Continental).
Even our lowly Atlas CBA prevents the creation of new Crew Leasing Companies to fly our A/C. AABO created prior to the CBA only survives with about 50-60 guys due to a previous LOA at an attempt to save jobs when they and Polar were being used against us during our unionization. All new hires are required to be hired under the Atlas CBA domestically and internationally based despite what you have been told.
Maybe that is why the Atlas side (along with a number of Polar crews) have gotten fed up and have gone looking for other representation. 92%+ of just Atlas crews says a lot. Hopefully putting things back on an even keel instead of this votes for influence exhibited in the past at ALPA National.
Lets get a combined contract with scope. Your scenario fits what the Polar MEC wants heard, but little with the actual facts at hand. I can't remember if it was you or another that had the republic CBA out their (Teamsters Neg. BTW) which would even hold the holding company to the CBA and scope. It would not be hard to incorporate that into the proposed merger of two certificates one pilot group scenario (like Air Micronesia/Continental).
Even our lowly Atlas CBA prevents the creation of new Crew Leasing Companies to fly our A/C. AABO created prior to the CBA only survives with about 50-60 guys due to a previous LOA at an attempt to save jobs when they and Polar were being used against us during our unionization. All new hires are required to be hired under the Atlas CBA domestically and internationally based despite what you have been told.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shame we have to mistrust our fellow trade unionists and indeed our national union, with the same fervor we mistrust management. Whether it be ALPA, The company, or our dear Polar bretheren - watch what they do, not what they say. Bobrobbin are not all that unlike Cato who is not all that unlike Helling/Prater.
I am tired of being beaten with the olive branch.
I am tired of being beaten with the olive branch.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by nitty-gritty
I think one crew group has attempted numerous times to try an cooperate and get things done to absolutely no avail. Usually to their detriment to get along and work things out. I have yet to see any level of cooperation reciprocated from the other side. Only grabs at gains for themselves.
You may not realize it, but your fingerpointing is part of the problem. Like most of the others, your intelligable points are lost as soon as you make a statement like that. I'm sure people can point the other way too. Yet NOTHING is accomplished with statements like that.
I would go on about the merits of a positive discussion, but that wouldn't fit in anyone's agenda.
Whatever.....back to the idiocracy
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EJetCA—
This is getting into minutia, but “junior manning” is the practice of requiring a crewmember to come into work from OFF days. Extension on the backside is a different thing. And extension does happen at Atlas too often. Junior manning, however, does not.
As for moving X days, that can only be done if the majority of someone’s schedule was reserve. Movable OFF days for reserve pilots is common ALPA contract language. I don’t like it, at this job or my previous one (which was also ALPA), but it is an issue that is hardly unique to Atlas.
The point is that you guys rant on and on about things at Atlas that are, at best, only half understood. There are real issues, but chasing imaginary ones does not serve the long term interests of the crew forces. It does generate good propaganda, however.
This is getting into minutia, but “junior manning” is the practice of requiring a crewmember to come into work from OFF days. Extension on the backside is a different thing. And extension does happen at Atlas too often. Junior manning, however, does not.
As for moving X days, that can only be done if the majority of someone’s schedule was reserve. Movable OFF days for reserve pilots is common ALPA contract language. I don’t like it, at this job or my previous one (which was also ALPA), but it is an issue that is hardly unique to Atlas.
The point is that you guys rant on and on about things at Atlas that are, at best, only half understood. There are real issues, but chasing imaginary ones does not serve the long term interests of the crew forces. It does generate good propaganda, however.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A very astute comment, WhaleDriver.
Curiously, Polar's FE arbitration result (Horowitz) will share the same time frame. . . .Also, the recent Holden ruling seemed to favor mngmnt because Holden felt that Polar's downgraded captains were employed in the best of poor circumstances (a mngmnt attitude that Horowitz may also be looking for). This may all relate.
How many Atlas FE's are now on furlough?
I'm not saying that . . . . approve the letter. If Cato wrote it, it has a catch, or will effect one of the many arbitrations ongoing. . .
Curiously, Polar's FE arbitration result (Horowitz) will share the same time frame. . . .Also, the recent Holden ruling seemed to favor mngmnt because Holden felt that Polar's downgraded captains were employed in the best of poor circumstances (a mngmnt attitude that Horowitz may also be looking for). This may all relate.
How many Atlas FE's are now on furlough?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 65
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ejetca
You may not realize it, but your fingerpointing is part of the problem. Like most of the others, your intelligable points are lost as soon as you make a statement like that. I'm sure people can point the other way too. Yet NOTHING is accomplished with statements like that.
It's just as someone else put it before, "I am tired of being beaten with the olive branch."
This process is being fixed via an alternate route as we speak. By a group tired of this continuous goat rope. The true problems to this equation will be removed shortly and I want to thank all the Atlas and Polar crews that have helped already and will help in the future.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 28th Jun 2008 at 05:12.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote from James R. Cato (excerpt text from correspondence of June 26, 2008)
“. . . . for at least twelve months (the estimated time before the merged CBA and seniority lists are implemented), if ever . . .”
“. . . . for at least twelve months (the estimated time before the merged CBA and seniority lists are implemented), if ever . . .”
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Pago Pago
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice! Typical Polar misinformation and misdirection. That quote could be from anything! Better publish the whole thing to put it in context.
For instance it could say We will be negotiating for at least twelve months (the estimated time before the merged CBA and seniority lists are implemented), if ever there was a time to get your act together it is now.
Or it could say: You will be paid a huge bonus for at least twelve months (the estimated time before the merged CBA and seniority lists are implemented), if ever you are in Purchase feel free to visit.
anyone else...?
For instance it could say We will be negotiating for at least twelve months (the estimated time before the merged CBA and seniority lists are implemented), if ever there was a time to get your act together it is now.
Or it could say: You will be paid a huge bonus for at least twelve months (the estimated time before the merged CBA and seniority lists are implemented), if ever you are in Purchase feel free to visit.
anyone else...?
Last edited by Beaver_Driver; 28th Jun 2008 at 20:02.