ASTAR Airlines Race to the Bottom
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ASTAR Airlines Race to the Bottom
ASTAR'S Race to the Bottom!
Attention all pilots/union members:
In an effort to influence DHL’s decision on the home for the 6 future 767-300 aircraft purchased from Boeing, the ASTAR MEC has executed the "race to the bottom" plan. In order to prevent these aircraft from landing at Atlas, Polar, ABX, or even EAT, the ASTAR MEC leadership is currently negotiating concessions in pay and work rules. This means they are willing to fly a heavy for less pay than the narrow body pay. This plan violates several ALPA national codes of ethic and at least one resolution.
The industry would like to thank you.
Attention all pilots/union members:
In an effort to influence DHL’s decision on the home for the 6 future 767-300 aircraft purchased from Boeing, the ASTAR MEC has executed the "race to the bottom" plan. In order to prevent these aircraft from landing at Atlas, Polar, ABX, or even EAT, the ASTAR MEC leadership is currently negotiating concessions in pay and work rules. This means they are willing to fly a heavy for less pay than the narrow body pay. This plan violates several ALPA national codes of ethic and at least one resolution.
The industry would like to thank you.
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As much as it pains me to even have to acknowledge this, I would like to assure all on this board that avatrix' charges are untrue. She is spreading the same horse hockey on all the message boards. Just more ABXA professionalism at work.
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One more thing - just an observation - but usually when someone is guilty of something or they are trying to hide something they are very quick to jump into "defensive" mode.
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Actually, yes you are. You've proven it on multiple message boards. And you really should be original, instead of just constantly posting the same message on multiple boards. In the interest of sparing everyone from further waste of bandwidth, I'm not going to bother countering your statements further, as they simply have no merit. End of story.
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Just in case anyone thought the Atlas/Polar noise was getting old we now bring ABX/ASTAR to the International Aviation Channel.
And to further deepen the soap opera, you will soon see (I fear), ASTAR/Polar (ALPA) join forces to battle the evil ABX/Atlas (Teamsters).
Be sure not to miss coming episodes.
Or maybe you should.
I sure wish that I could.
And to further deepen the soap opera, you will soon see (I fear), ASTAR/Polar (ALPA) join forces to battle the evil ABX/Atlas (Teamsters).
Be sure not to miss coming episodes.
Or maybe you should.
I sure wish that I could.
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Race to the bottom
The comment about Astar pilots leading the race to the bottom is worth discussion. Before I proceed though I want everyone to know that I am an Astar pilot, however I have no issue, none, with this discussion. Frankly it is my opinion that this is precisely the kind(s) of thing that we, as a profession, need to be discussing.
That said I also believe that the subject of B scales and concessions, and frankly, much of what we talk about, are the manifestations of our professions deeper more vexing issue, which is…us. There is not a day, not and hour, that goes by that we don’t engage in the activity of “being our own worst enemy.” We vilify one another, we level accusations at one another, and not surprisingly, we have adopted this holier than thou attitude where we expect some OTHER pilot group to take a stand…alone…on behalf of the entire profession. We’re even righteous and indignant with respect to our expectations about OTHER pilot groups, they are always the no good guilty ones that “lead the race to the bottom” or take away my flying.
If we truly want to level the playing field, when it comes to pay, then shouldn't pay rates and work rules be universal, same pay/same rules for the same equipment...regardless of company? If they were our management wouldn’t have any reason to come to us and ask for us to work for less, or work more for the same money. Moreover, we would have no reason to consider their request. Unfortunately that is not the world in which we live.
Given the state of the industry and the realities in which we live and work, another, and even better solution concerning our situation, might be to ask other pilot groups to simply say no to any DHL flying unless their pay rates and work rules are the equivalent or greater than are the Astar rates. Of course I know that is not going to happen, I only use it to sight the challenge that confronts every pilot group; how does one stand up to management in this environment…and do it alone?
Unfortunately the race to the bottom is something that no single pilot group can stop. Sure, it can "take one for the Gipper" so to speak, but until ALL pilots flying for ALL companies, regardless of union affiliation chose to act collectively then the race to the bottom will always challenge our profession. But doesn’t this indeed beg the most important question?—Is this kind of unity really possible?
Regardless of the answer to that question I do know this: Until we rise as one, until that day arrives, we are all destined to fight our own fights, largely ALONE.
That said I also believe that the subject of B scales and concessions, and frankly, much of what we talk about, are the manifestations of our professions deeper more vexing issue, which is…us. There is not a day, not and hour, that goes by that we don’t engage in the activity of “being our own worst enemy.” We vilify one another, we level accusations at one another, and not surprisingly, we have adopted this holier than thou attitude where we expect some OTHER pilot group to take a stand…alone…on behalf of the entire profession. We’re even righteous and indignant with respect to our expectations about OTHER pilot groups, they are always the no good guilty ones that “lead the race to the bottom” or take away my flying.
If we truly want to level the playing field, when it comes to pay, then shouldn't pay rates and work rules be universal, same pay/same rules for the same equipment...regardless of company? If they were our management wouldn’t have any reason to come to us and ask for us to work for less, or work more for the same money. Moreover, we would have no reason to consider their request. Unfortunately that is not the world in which we live.
Given the state of the industry and the realities in which we live and work, another, and even better solution concerning our situation, might be to ask other pilot groups to simply say no to any DHL flying unless their pay rates and work rules are the equivalent or greater than are the Astar rates. Of course I know that is not going to happen, I only use it to sight the challenge that confronts every pilot group; how does one stand up to management in this environment…and do it alone?
Unfortunately the race to the bottom is something that no single pilot group can stop. Sure, it can "take one for the Gipper" so to speak, but until ALL pilots flying for ALL companies, regardless of union affiliation chose to act collectively then the race to the bottom will always challenge our profession. But doesn’t this indeed beg the most important question?—Is this kind of unity really possible?
Regardless of the answer to that question I do know this: Until we rise as one, until that day arrives, we are all destined to fight our own fights, largely ALONE.
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Dont Worry Guy's they are not going stateside
Recent main contenders are DHL Air (UK) and EAT.
Thats unless the Dollars weakens further to about $2.50c to the £.
Then you might see them, but certainly not all, as there is far more profit to be made in the Europe than USA, and the A300 is not suitable for the pond.
Also DHL pilots in Europe have more experience operating the type both ETOPS and within Europe and the Middle East.
Also dont forget DHL put profits first, and yes the lower cost operation could win, but then if they can't prove themselves the aircraft can easilly go elsewhere.
Recent main contenders are DHL Air (UK) and EAT.
Thats unless the Dollars weakens further to about $2.50c to the £.
Then you might see them, but certainly not all, as there is far more profit to be made in the Europe than USA, and the A300 is not suitable for the pond.
Also DHL pilots in Europe have more experience operating the type both ETOPS and within Europe and the Middle East.
Also dont forget DHL put profits first, and yes the lower cost operation could win, but then if they can't prove themselves the aircraft can easilly go elsewhere.
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Dont Worry Guy's they are not going stateside
Recent main contenders are DHL Air (UK) and EAT.
Thats unless the Dollars weakens further to about $2.50c to the £.
Then you might see them, but certainly not all, as there is far more profit to be made in the Europe than USA,
Recent main contenders are DHL Air (UK) and EAT.
Thats unless the Dollars weakens further to about $2.50c to the £.
Then you might see them, but certainly not all, as there is far more profit to be made in the Europe than USA,
Also DHL pilots in Europe have more experience operating the type both ETOPS and within Europe and the Middle East.
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DPWN manager for both.
Also there are a large number of ex 767 drivers now flying for DHL Air and EAT.
Nearly all of whom are ex ETOPS experienced with several 1000's of hours on type.
Also the background of many Captains in both companies vary from B747 thru B727 and even B707 freight and passenger ops.
There are strong sentiments within DPWN to keep the aircraft European based, and unless you have the right to live and work in Europe that counts out the N registration.
It will not be like the UPS operation, unless your very cheap and prepared to out work over here for peanuts, then we have the former eastern block pilots who will undercut you even further.
The B.777's with Aerologic show DPWN's commitment to Europe.
The Losses in the USA, low Dollar $ returns, Unionisation and working practices, not a good sign for the future.
We also have enough pilots over here to do the job very well thanks.
N reg on DHL European / Mid East routes maybe one day but not soon.
Also there are a large number of ex 767 drivers now flying for DHL Air and EAT.
Nearly all of whom are ex ETOPS experienced with several 1000's of hours on type.
Also the background of many Captains in both companies vary from B747 thru B727 and even B707 freight and passenger ops.
There are strong sentiments within DPWN to keep the aircraft European based, and unless you have the right to live and work in Europe that counts out the N registration.
It will not be like the UPS operation, unless your very cheap and prepared to out work over here for peanuts, then we have the former eastern block pilots who will undercut you even further.
The B.777's with Aerologic show DPWN's commitment to Europe.
The Losses in the USA, low Dollar $ returns, Unionisation and working practices, not a good sign for the future.
We also have enough pilots over here to do the job very well thanks.
N reg on DHL European / Mid East routes maybe one day but not soon.
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Also DHL pilots in Europe have more experience operating the type both ETOPS and within Europe and the Middle East.
This statement is just as laughable.
there is far more profit to be made in the Europe than USA
What is Verdi? Do you think the European pilots are somehow cheaper to employ? How do you know this?
US working practices ....hmmmm I can't remember the last time I had a job that had a government mandated one month a year vacation. Or a government mandated 24 hours of rest if I crossed more than 5 times Zones. Not making a comment on safety or work rules, only that your statements here are pure conjecture.
Are we going to get into the whole EU is just like the US thing? There are MANY US pilots living and working in Europe. That is not germane to your argument anyways. The statement or question is who DHL is going to place the 767s with. And neither one of your core ideas has merit. Sorry.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 24th Apr 2008 at 20:06.
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the truth
Dear DD,
Your statements, in my opinion, have some basis of truth. These aircraft will be the property of DHL so they certainly may do with them as they please. If they choose to employ European pilots and ignore Astar, and Polar (it looks as though they have already eliminated ABX from consideration) then they will remove the ability to fly those a/c through the gateway city and further into the US. Fly it to KJFK and you're done! Fly it to KILN and you're done. That seems to me to be a significant restriction on future operations. That is of course unless the Europeans think they can remove the cabatoge restrictions that presently exist in our country. Considering the sad state of affairs of the US airlines along with the fact that it is a Presidential Election year (one of the few times that labor truly has an effective voice) I think it is an unlikely time to expect a reduction in the present cabatoge rules. Actually from where I sit it appears to me that the whole decision on who is to get the B767-300F's is business as usual for DHL. More to do with cronyism than actual in depth business analysis. It seems that many business decisions are based upon present alliances and not with common sense and bottom line considerations. I would suggest that this is one of the reasons, yes there are many, that DHL has taken such a punch to the chin here in the US.
As an ABX pilot I have heard it said many times that we have some sort of arrogance toward DHL and their other more tenured pilot groups but I just don't see it that way. However, I do think that our pilot group has been continually disappointed over the last three and a half years with DHL's willingness to blame their poor management and operations on us. They run the show not ABX. That is part of the frustration from my side. You see the continual mistakes but you can't do anything about it! After three years of this type of management I have nearly lost the ability to care. Although I like what I do, I truly dread going to work to do it for a company that apparantly has so little appreciation for my effort and skills. How am I rewarded for my effort; by being bombarded with numerous press releases and leaked financial sources saying that my job is on the block due to DHL's losses in the US. Here I am trying to do the best job I can to defend DHL's market from FedEx and UPS and what is DHL doing? Discussing the possibilty of a "partnership" with the enemy that could mean the end of my job, wonderful!
Note: In the three and half years that I have been flying yellow airplanes I have yet to meet in person or to even communicate to a DHL manager here in KILN. You would think that it would be a priority for them to occasionally talk to the "troops" but apparantly not! Just because my company is a DHL contractor doesn't mean you should ignore us. During my last training sequence in KILN I asked my Chief Pilot who was the highest ranking DHL manager stationed in the Executive Offices in Wilmington. Unfortunately he did not know their name nor their position. This is very strange considering that we apparantly work in the same building with them. What a flawed corporate culture!
Your statements, in my opinion, have some basis of truth. These aircraft will be the property of DHL so they certainly may do with them as they please. If they choose to employ European pilots and ignore Astar, and Polar (it looks as though they have already eliminated ABX from consideration) then they will remove the ability to fly those a/c through the gateway city and further into the US. Fly it to KJFK and you're done! Fly it to KILN and you're done. That seems to me to be a significant restriction on future operations. That is of course unless the Europeans think they can remove the cabatoge restrictions that presently exist in our country. Considering the sad state of affairs of the US airlines along with the fact that it is a Presidential Election year (one of the few times that labor truly has an effective voice) I think it is an unlikely time to expect a reduction in the present cabatoge rules. Actually from where I sit it appears to me that the whole decision on who is to get the B767-300F's is business as usual for DHL. More to do with cronyism than actual in depth business analysis. It seems that many business decisions are based upon present alliances and not with common sense and bottom line considerations. I would suggest that this is one of the reasons, yes there are many, that DHL has taken such a punch to the chin here in the US.
As an ABX pilot I have heard it said many times that we have some sort of arrogance toward DHL and their other more tenured pilot groups but I just don't see it that way. However, I do think that our pilot group has been continually disappointed over the last three and a half years with DHL's willingness to blame their poor management and operations on us. They run the show not ABX. That is part of the frustration from my side. You see the continual mistakes but you can't do anything about it! After three years of this type of management I have nearly lost the ability to care. Although I like what I do, I truly dread going to work to do it for a company that apparantly has so little appreciation for my effort and skills. How am I rewarded for my effort; by being bombarded with numerous press releases and leaked financial sources saying that my job is on the block due to DHL's losses in the US. Here I am trying to do the best job I can to defend DHL's market from FedEx and UPS and what is DHL doing? Discussing the possibilty of a "partnership" with the enemy that could mean the end of my job, wonderful!
Note: In the three and half years that I have been flying yellow airplanes I have yet to meet in person or to even communicate to a DHL manager here in KILN. You would think that it would be a priority for them to occasionally talk to the "troops" but apparantly not! Just because my company is a DHL contractor doesn't mean you should ignore us. During my last training sequence in KILN I asked my Chief Pilot who was the highest ranking DHL manager stationed in the Executive Offices in Wilmington. Unfortunately he did not know their name nor their position. This is very strange considering that we apparantly work in the same building with them. What a flawed corporate culture!
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Clipperskip
Your last message was a breath of fresh air, instead of a rather biggoted tirade.
I have been connected with freighting for several years and with EAT / DHL Air / Air Contractors in particular, and in all those companies the DHL management communications has been extreemly poor, you are only suffering under a certain management style which manifested itself since DPWN bought DHL.
Your job and those of other DHL contractors, which is how DPWN see their airline employees, are all at risk.
At risk because the shareholders come first, and maximising of profits is the mantra to which senior managers in DPWN pray.
Loss making enterprises do not last long in the scheme of things for the masters in Bonn, neither do airlines who even when profitable do not achieve their targets, or reliability of dispatch.
As for operating inside the USA that too will come with the openskies agreements, for if there is not a level playing field the EU will withdraw from the agreement, and all will be worse off.
An EU MP stated recently that if the rules were not the same for everybody it would be relatively easy to stop UPS flying N reg aircraft within Europe stopping them at the first point of entry.
Now I dont wish to start a debate on the rights or wrongs of openskies so lets not go down that road.
I am sorry that your job is treatened, I do not like to hear of any pilot being put out of work, on either side of the pond, but the same applies here in Europe.
If a pact with the devil saves jobs then bring him on.
As to WhaleFR8
I have many years in the European industry (30+) and many thousands of hours on Boeing equipment including the 767 so my comments are based on firm knowledge and connections.
The front runner for the B767 a few weeks ago was a US carrier, but like in all of aviation when the wind changes there is a new plan, and the European carriers are now in the forefront.
In this forum there are those who know who I am and they have no need for me to prove my credentials, I stand on my experience and merit.
Your last message was a breath of fresh air, instead of a rather biggoted tirade.
I have been connected with freighting for several years and with EAT / DHL Air / Air Contractors in particular, and in all those companies the DHL management communications has been extreemly poor, you are only suffering under a certain management style which manifested itself since DPWN bought DHL.
Your job and those of other DHL contractors, which is how DPWN see their airline employees, are all at risk.
At risk because the shareholders come first, and maximising of profits is the mantra to which senior managers in DPWN pray.
Loss making enterprises do not last long in the scheme of things for the masters in Bonn, neither do airlines who even when profitable do not achieve their targets, or reliability of dispatch.
As for operating inside the USA that too will come with the openskies agreements, for if there is not a level playing field the EU will withdraw from the agreement, and all will be worse off.
An EU MP stated recently that if the rules were not the same for everybody it would be relatively easy to stop UPS flying N reg aircraft within Europe stopping them at the first point of entry.
Now I dont wish to start a debate on the rights or wrongs of openskies so lets not go down that road.
I am sorry that your job is treatened, I do not like to hear of any pilot being put out of work, on either side of the pond, but the same applies here in Europe.
If a pact with the devil saves jobs then bring him on.
As to WhaleFR8
I have many years in the European industry (30+) and many thousands of hours on Boeing equipment including the 767 so my comments are based on firm knowledge and connections.
The front runner for the B767 a few weeks ago was a US carrier, but like in all of aviation when the wind changes there is a new plan, and the European carriers are now in the forefront.
In this forum there are those who know who I am and they have no need for me to prove my credentials, I stand on my experience and merit.
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You can forget about Polar getting your 76's Those "lead head AAWW management types" dont have the "cranium contents" to put additional aircraft on the certificat much less another type.
Sure hope its true your MEC told them to "pound sand" after years of waiting and hard work to get your pay rates. I know when Polar starts negotiations for its contract, AAWW "aint seen nothin yet". Astar MEC needs to take "the negotiations" are over attitude.
I didnt even know those ALPA scumbags had ethics.
Sure hope its true your MEC told them to "pound sand" after years of waiting and hard work to get your pay rates. I know when Polar starts negotiations for its contract, AAWW "aint seen nothin yet". Astar MEC needs to take "the negotiations" are over attitude.
I didnt even know those ALPA scumbags had ethics.
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OK Trix. So you might not be an ABXA pilot. But from your past posts on FI, you seem to have a SERIOUS preoccupation with ABXA operations and a VERY defensive nature when dealing with posters you perceive to be attacking ABXA. So it is what it is.
Your multi board attack on AStar was completely off the mark and very much without merit. The only "truth" in your attack was that the MEC did meet with mgt. But thats it. And at that meeting, the MEC told them not to even consider pay rates as negotiable. You failed (purposely it would seem) to mention that little tid bit.
As for work rules, you should not throw stones in glass houses. A few years back when AStar was sole supplier of Trans-Con flying for DHL, 1224, at the request of Joe Hete, reworked their work rules so that ABXA could capture that flying. As a result, AStar does not do a single Trans-Con today. So Trix, who started this "race to the bottom" you're so worked up about ????
But of course I'm being "defensive" so I must be lying. Instead of attacking others Trix, you should be spurring on your "friends" over at 1224 to get their contract house in order.
Your multi board attack on AStar was completely off the mark and very much without merit. The only "truth" in your attack was that the MEC did meet with mgt. But thats it. And at that meeting, the MEC told them not to even consider pay rates as negotiable. You failed (purposely it would seem) to mention that little tid bit.
As for work rules, you should not throw stones in glass houses. A few years back when AStar was sole supplier of Trans-Con flying for DHL, 1224, at the request of Joe Hete, reworked their work rules so that ABXA could capture that flying. As a result, AStar does not do a single Trans-Con today. So Trix, who started this "race to the bottom" you're so worked up about ????
But of course I'm being "defensive" so I must be lying. Instead of attacking others Trix, you should be spurring on your "friends" over at 1224 to get their contract house in order.
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Let me first compliment Astar pilots for taking a stand against concessions.
But…“sole supplier of Trans-Con flying for DHL” ???? Cut the crap, crybaby. How about "sole supplier of MSP flying for DHL" or DEN... or... wherever...
For every trip that Astar lost to ABX lost I can name one the ABX lost to Astar. There was no net loss of flying for Astar. But there WAS a net loss of flying for ABX.
But…“sole supplier of Trans-Con flying for DHL” ???? Cut the crap, crybaby. How about "sole supplier of MSP flying for DHL" or DEN... or... wherever...
For every trip that Astar lost to ABX lost I can name one the ABX lost to Astar. There was no net loss of flying for Astar. But there WAS a net loss of flying for ABX.
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>>> As for work rules, you should not throw stones in glass houses. A few years back when AStar was sole supplier of Trans-Con flying for DHL, 1224, at the request of Joe Hete, reworked their work rules so that ABXA could capture that flying. As a result, AStar does not do a single Trans-Con today. So Trix, who started this "race to the bottom" you're so worked up about ????<<<
Ahh, another myth.
Ahh, another myth.