Polar/atlas Merger Unfair

[DHC2 Driver]

In no way shape or form is it requesting furloughs on the Atlas side. No one wants that. There should be plenty of ACMI flying available that Atlas should not have to furlough anyone. Until they start parking the classics next year, then I predict massive furloughs on both sides.

This is simply untrue as Bobb has said many times that he thought that Atlas should share in the furloughs even though it was the Polar aircraft that were going away (or the Atlas aircraft being operated by Polar). In fact this is one of his major objectives, as it has been in all his talks with the company, with the ALPA executive council, and with the Atlas MEC.

As far as the ACMI flying, I have several e-mails from Polar guys saying the WHOLE reason that they do not like Atlas or the thought of being Atlas pilots is that they figure ACMI companies are scab companies and anyone flying under their banner is a scab. You folks who posted that e-mail trail know who you are. Should I post the copies here?

None of this is said with any animosity. That is all pretty much gone. Rather, it is important to both groups to get to the real truth. What I have said now and in the past is from things I have personally heard or personally have knowledge of.

I have maybe not been so good at delineating what is my opinion, but that should be obvious. Just like it is my opinion that not one single Atlas pilot will ever vote for Bobb, Bob, or Robin, it is my opinion that if this keeps up Atlas will dump the whole group and see you all in court in a dozen years or so. You have to ask yourself; why would they put a 5 Bil. 20 year deal in jeopardy for 190 pilots? As I said before it is a fine line ---

[whaledriver101]

DHC2 guy are you for real?? I mean it,, is there something wrong with you??? In the 6 years ive been here Ive never heard any Polar pilot talk about ACMI flying being "scab" flying. In fact,, we welcome ANY additional flying whether it be ACMI or whatever. We really dont talk about ACMI flying at all since we dont do any of it.

As far as talking about scabs. The only scabs we talk about(and its rare) are the Atlas dirtbags that crossed the Polar picket line. I hope they are "blacklisted" for life.

[DHC2 Driver]

DHC2 guy are you for real?? I mean it,, is there something wrong with you??? In the 6 years ive been here Ive never heard any Polar pilot talk about ACMI flying being "scab" flying. In fact,, we welcome ANY additional flying whether it be ACMI or whatever. We really dont talk about ACMI flying at all since we dont do any of it.

As far as talking about scabs. The only scabs we talk about(and its rare) are the Atlas dirtbags that crossed the Polar picket line. I hope they are "blacklisted" for life.

Well I could send you the e-mail string in question if you wanted. Just send me a valid e-mail address. There are some pretty well known Polar guys on there, many of whom we KNOW post to this board. I doubt you will see any of them try to refute this as I can, and will, publish the thread of e-mails.

As far as scabs go - well there were NO scabs. NONE. PERIOD. So you shouldn't have a whole lot to talk about. This matter came pretty close to costing your council and ALPA more than a few million dollars and was only due to the goodwill of the Atlas pilots involved that it didn't. I hate to see this degenerate into another name calling exercise - but you and every other professional pilot deserve to know the truth.

[joetommy]

Polar Guys

Had some Polar guys on the jumpseat. Everyone got along well. The talk turned to the Atlas contract. The F/O told of how Bobb undercut the Atlas MEC position, thus the current contract. The Polar guy countered with the argument that Polar went on strike with about 1/2 to 1/3 the crews and planes that Atlas had. And yet they made the strike happen. Why not Atlas with the much greater numbers. Polar could not possibly fly the Atlas trips even if they wanted to with their much smaller crew force.

Also, he wanted to know why the Atlas pilots tolerate the whole situation at STN. Polar pilots spend much of their time at ICN. But there is no crew base there. Let alone having to fly with people not on the Polar senority list.

Please tell me how to respond next time.

THANKS

[DHC2 Driver]

Here comes plan "B"

[Whale Rider]

So you keep saying........

[Furloughed]

Plan B ?

What, has the Atlas VARS been updated ?

[knehibiju]

I don't know Skipper, what did he say?

I think if a company that controls two airlines actually has a plan B, or plan period, then both pilot groups need to find cover because it's going to start raining rocks.

[Whale Rider]

Plan B can only stand for one thing.....BS!

[joetommy]

Question

I don't think I am going to get an answer What's wrong?
THANKS

[ship's power]

Perhaps an MEC "changing of the guard" will soon be in order. When the two pilot groups are combined into one (as in time, they most likely will), then the two old MEC's will have completed their tough stellar jobs.


In preparation for the beginning of the next era, a fresh MEC comprised of new candidates expertly prepared by today's leaderships should now be in early stages. Old antagonizing disputes will become history.
.

Everything has a plan "B". That's when all is thrown into the crapper!

[DHC2 Driver]

JT

Had some Polar guys on the jumpseat. Everyone got along well. The talk turned to the Atlas contract. The F/O told of how Bobb undercut the Atlas MEC position, thus the current contract.

Only partially correct. I am sure he meant Bob Fell the previous MEC chair not Bobb Henderson the current one. However, the current leadership is mostly driven by Robin Hair who seems to be a very angry man (as evidenced by his explosion just last week in front of a WHOLE bunch of folks) and who apparently hates the thought of being an Atlas pilot and an ACMI pilot. He is most likely the power behind the throne because it seems like he manages every decision. And he was on the leadership team when Atlas was in the final days of their contract negotiation. In fact Bobb, Bob, and Robin were in the same class or one class away during Polar initial. So it should not be surprising that they are all coaching from the same playbook.

The Polar guy countered with the argument that Polar went on strike with about 1/2 to 1/3 the crews and planes that Atlas had. And yet they made the strike happen. Why not Atlas with the much greater numbers.

That one is easy – there are two reasons and you answered one of them in your first paragraph. When Atlas was in the 11th hour of their strike prep, Bob Fell called Dave Bourne and told him that all bets were off and if we went on strike his crews would be flying six Atlas aircraft the next day (granted that this was not the only reason that the MEC recommended a TA, but it was a major factor). And Polar COULD have flown a great majority of the Atlas trips. Remember how Atlas ramped Polar up? Transferred some aircraft and hired a bunch of people for no reason? Sure, they developed some money losing routes to keep the pilots busy, but the main plan was to have a force other than AACS in place to take the Atlas planes and flying, had Atlas actually gone on strike. This is all old history and many on this board will not want to hear it again but it is only meant to keep the record straight not to start another war that none of us needs.

Second, the ONLY way Bobb Henderson made the Polar strike work was the secondary strike that he forced on the Atlas Pilot group. Duane Woerth gave a rousing speech at the ALPA national convention congratulating the Atlas pilots for the first-ever-in-history secondary strike in support of Polar. The Polar MEC even applauded. The fact that Atlas pilots were forced into it by Bobb’s tactics is immaterial. Polar would have been on the street if it were not for the Atlas pilots. That comment came DIRECTLY from a management official to my ears not one month after Polar was back flying.

Polar could not possibly fly the Atlas trips even if they wanted to with their much smaller crew force.

This one is almost laughable and is answered partially above. But it bears discussion again, as it is yet another attempt to rewrite history. Just look at the Polar seniority list if you are interested and compare the dates of hire there, with the Atlas contract date.

Also, he wanted to know why the Atlas pilots tolerate the whole situation at STN.

Once again answered in your paragraph above. If Atlas had been able to strike for a better contract perhaps the STN base would not be there.

Remember why exactly AACS was created – to give Atlas management options if Atlas pilots actually did go on strike. So in that respect is Polar all that different from AACS? They both were created or acquired to do what Polar pilots accuse Atlas pilots of doing…..

None of this is said with any animosity for both groups were played like a stradavarius. Rather it is my recollection of the facts mostly from what I have researched and some of what I heard from managment. So don't trust what I said (or Merc, should the mods on this board ever let him back on) - go find out for yourself. Read the dates, read the management announcements when Polar was purchased.

Get the "proof of purchase"


For Plan B part one click here

Winning the battles while losing the war is never a good strategy. We HAVE to get together.

[layinlow]

Nice recording. Where did you make it?
I guess Atlas, in order to eliminate Polar will give up all the China, Korea, and Japan rights. Sure they will! I think I will stick with Fed Ex, better management.

[DHC2 Driver]

Nice recording. Where did you make it?

I didn't. You can call 1-800-253-5642 and hear it for yourself. The Atlas pilots (and management) listen to the Polar VARS all the time. Funny the Polar pilots have to hear this kind of thing from the Atlas VARS instead of their MEC chair, who got the letter the same time the Atlas MEC did.

I guess Atlas, in order to eliminate Polar will give up all the China, Korea, and Japan rights.

Do you think Polar has some sort of monopoly on ALL the route authorities in the world? Not true. You can easily go to the DOT Document Management System, look under OST, and find all the route authorities and waivers that Atlas has, or has recently applied for.

Sure they will! I think I will stick with Fed Ex, better management.

Good luck to you then. I doubt that it is better managment - most likely just different.

[trashhauler]

I can only assume you are alluding to some of the "informative" comments posted on this site. I am quite aware of the actual persons posted here and although I cannot quantify any of the atlas posts, I can assure you that only the Polar "worker bees" are posting anything related to this thread. However, there are some some, who I believe, deliberately salting the site with comments designed to elicit negative responses (Polar and Atlas). As a former Polaroid, I can see both sides working mighty hard to stir the pot. Sad.

[DHC2 Driver]

Follow the flying for HOW LONG???!!!

I am just gonna put this one out there without a comment.


Atlas 03-28-2007 VARS on Merger in streaming mp3

[layinlow]

Very interesting. Now if you go to the Polar VARS and link to March 7th you will see that the Polar MEC is doing the same thing as the Atlas MEC, trying to preserve the integrety of the CBA and protection of the union members. Unless you are familiar with the Polar CBA you might not realize that the company wants to ignore the provisions of the scope clause. While I cannot speak for Bourne and their Atlas CBA, I can assure you that Henderson is going to work very hard to prevent that from happening at Polar. While I would like to see a merger, it must within the confines of the CBA. If it resulted in losses on the Polar side, then so be it, as long as it is in compliance with the CBA. Until then....nada

[capnbob928s4]

ACMI vs Scheduled Service

I've been watching from the sidelines but something that came out today is very interesting. Both Polar and Atlas negotiating committees have been hard at work working on a combined CBA. Most of the items concerning scope and successorship have been ironed out except for ONE. After the implementation of a combined CBA, the Polar people believe that for a specified period of time if Polar is sold then the original Polar crews should go with the sale and the same for Atlas should Atlas ever be sold. The Polar MEC wanted 5 years, gave in to 3 years then finally agreed to 21 months. The Atlas MEC stayed at 1 year and has not waivered. The interesting thing here is that the Atlas posters here constantly remind us how ACMI is the money maker and scheduled service is the anchor. Then why are the Atlas people so adamant about being able, after 1 year, to move with the Polar certificate should Polar be sold...afterall, many Atlas pilots will be high up on the combined seniority list and would therefore go with the Polar sale???????? Why not just stick with your ACMI gig? You've been posting here constantly about how great it is and how lousy the scheduled service is at Polar!!! Another confusing item is why is Atlas renaming many of their flights under their own scheduled service scheme?? Sounds like some of you want to hang onto the coattails of the Polar pilots!!! Why????????? They created it and should be allowed to continue with it if it is ever sold and vice versa.

[DHC2 Driver]

CB,
Not exactly true. The Polar guys have remained stuck on 40 months. The Atlas guys initially said none (because of the language from Arbitrator Harris) then they said 12 months but the POLAR guys have not budged from 40 months - even with intervention from ALPA president Prater. The follow the flying is important as scope especially since this company has a penchant for figuring out ways to play Atlas as well as Polar against other entities. it would not be unlike the managers at AAWWH to threaten to sell the Polar flying OR the Atlas flying if they thought it was in their best interests. So the follow the flying is important - but as you can see it is more important to Polar than to Atlas - at least it was until Polar negotiators became so recalcitrant.

[Furloughed]

There's a framework in place for a neutral third party to hear and rule on the merits of each side's wishes. We'll take it from there ...