Polar/atlas Merger Unfair
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And I'm still getting a paycheck. Gotta love it!
However, The Atlas pilots were screwed out of the ability to strike for a decent contract, at least in part, by the actions of the former Polar MEC. They were told by ALPA and others, "hey it is a first contract, the next one will be better."
Now they are more than a year into the amendable date of their "next" contract, waiting.
- Waiting for a new contract while flying 21-25 days a month for piss poor wages, due to a piss poor contract.
- Waiting while a VP of ops with ZERO operational experience and his predatory scheduling department, run by a European Chief Pilot who cares little for ALPA pilots, the FARs, or the current contract, screws them into the ground.
-Waiting for Bobb to quit posturing and screwing around so they can get to the "next" contract.
Most Atlas pilots see Polar as the root cause of all their recent pain and would just as soon Polar go away.
However, they also know that this merger is a reality. They know that it is a done deal. While some of them really HOPE that Bobb keeps messing around and Cato fires all the Polar pilots, MOST of them just want to get 'er done. Get the stoopid merger done so we can move on.
Get the merger done Bobb! You might as well go out with a decent legacy. If all of this posturing and rhetoric is because you think you have some chance to get yourself, or ANY Polar pilot, elected to represent the combined list, let me put your mind at ease - that will NEVER happen!!
So come on Bobb - the merger is a done deal. If you think that AAWWH is gonna put $5 Bil in jeopardy for 170 Polar pilots you are betting on the wrong horse. Get with the program. The merger is a reality. Lets get together and git 'er done.
Atlas pilots don't care if you like them or not - in fact most of them don't like you. But isn't it time to get professional and pull together to finish this thing?
Time to put all those years at Auburn to work for you - finish the protocols. Lets get to a contract!
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Why would the Polar pilots be worried about what happens before the CBA's are combined? Their current contract protects them in the mean time. Wouldn't the Atlas guys want to follow Atlas Air in the event it is spun off? After all ACMI is the best thing since sliced bread. Also just because something comes out of your MEC's mouth it is not guaranteed to be true. Polar agreed to Prater's compromise of 21 months. If the Atlas MEC did not have an ulterior motive why didn’t they just agree with it? Let ALPA National deal with the issue if it is against Arbitrator Harris’ ruling. I’d love to see Bourne’s phone records in the minutes prior to him backing out of the agreement. I’m guessing there was a call to area code 914.
PS. If I have to listen to you guys whine about how Polar caused you to have some a crummy contract one more time I will puke. You should have manned up and went on strike. We did. You brag about how Duane Woerthless touted your "contributions" to the Polar strike. Isn't this the same guy who stood by while the entire industry got bent over? Very credible.
PS. If I have to listen to you guys whine about how Polar caused you to have some a crummy contract one more time I will puke. You should have manned up and went on strike. We did. You brag about how Duane Woerthless touted your "contributions" to the Polar strike. Isn't this the same guy who stood by while the entire industry got bent over? Very credible.
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D2 you'd better grow some backbone and quit making excuses.
With a proven track record of caving in what makes you think Mgmnt will meekly hand over a new contract any better than what you have now?
With a proven track record of caving in what makes you think Mgmnt will meekly hand over a new contract any better than what you have now?
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DHC2guy dont blame the Polar guys for your lousy contract. The Atlas pilts voted for the contract because 1) they thought it was the best contract they could get. or,, 2) they didnt have the "spine" to go on strike. The Polar pilots were on strike for a couple of weeks because they knew they deserved better. They had "spine".
You know that Polar agreed with a 21 month time table with the merged list and Atlas rejected it. Dont "play stupid"!!
As a polaroid I'd like to see Bob not budge one day off the 21 month deal that Prater suggested.
In fact,, If a vote comes my way for a 21 month time table agreement.
BIG FAT "NO" here. I want more.
You know that Polar agreed with a 21 month time table with the merged list and Atlas rejected it. Dont "play stupid"!!
As a polaroid I'd like to see Bob not budge one day off the 21 month deal that Prater suggested.
In fact,, If a vote comes my way for a 21 month time table agreement.
BIG FAT "NO" here. I want more.
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<sigh>
Hard to go on strike when Bob F. said that if we did, Polar would be operating six Atlas airplanes the next day. He offerd you all up to do the same thing you accused Atlas pilots of doing during your strike. Who knows where it would have gone. The point is it made a difference in the thinking of whether or not to go on strike.
And you would all be on the street still if Bobb had not focused on the Atlas pilots and forced them to support your strike.
Bobb wants 21 months from the date of signing of the contract. The contract talks are expected to take 13 months with another 6 months to fully implement the contract, the training, and the combined list. 13+6+21= 40 months.
The Atlas MEC was not willing to do 40 months and at one point offered 12 months after the CBA. The two parties were NEVER "only 5 months apart" as Bobb said in his VARS. The Atlas MEC offered 12 months only until they talked to the merger attorneys and found out that ANY agreement such as this could abrogate the whole arbitration. In other words if Atlas agreed to the "follow the flying" which arbitrator Harris had specifically told Polar they were NOT to get, then it could make the whole arbitration void. In my opinion Bobb knew this - which is why (besides the roadblock theory) they tried this end-run around the merged list that everyone hates.
Well DUH! I don't doubt that.
How typical. Lets move backwards not forwards.
DHC2guy dont blame the Polar guys for your lousy contract. The Atlas pilts voted for the contract because 1) they thought it was the best contract they could get. or,, 2) they didnt have the "spine" to go on strike.
The Polar pilots were on strike for a couple of weeks because they knew they deserved better. They had "spine".
You know that Polar agreed with a 21 month time table with the merged list and Atlas rejected it. Dont "play stupid"!!
The Atlas MEC was not willing to do 40 months and at one point offered 12 months after the CBA. The two parties were NEVER "only 5 months apart" as Bobb said in his VARS. The Atlas MEC offered 12 months only until they talked to the merger attorneys and found out that ANY agreement such as this could abrogate the whole arbitration. In other words if Atlas agreed to the "follow the flying" which arbitrator Harris had specifically told Polar they were NOT to get, then it could make the whole arbitration void. In my opinion Bobb knew this - which is why (besides the roadblock theory) they tried this end-run around the merged list that everyone hates.
As a polaroid I'd like to see Bob not budge one day off the 21 month deal that Prater suggested.
In fact,, If a vote comes my way for a 21 month time table agreement.
BIG FAT "NO" here. I want more.
BIG FAT "NO" here. I want more.
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I am soooo tired of you blaming Bob F. for everything but global warming. You should have tested the waters. I think you would have found that the Polar guys who had been on strike before would have stood fast. I think that you were afraid of your own lack of solidarity.
Where did Bobb say anything about 5 months apart? You insist on spouting your own view of the “facts”.
You are right about one thing. The MEC wants 21 months after the contact is signed. What happens before that will be covered under our own scope language that we went on strike to get.
Where did Bobb say anything about 5 months apart? You insist on spouting your own view of the “facts”.
You are right about one thing. The MEC wants 21 months after the contact is signed. What happens before that will be covered under our own scope language that we went on strike to get.
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"Hard to go on strike when Bob F. said that if we did, Polar would be operating six Atlas airplanes the next day".
6 ? If this cowers you into submission what'll you do this time around with DHL/ABEX and ASTAR in the wings?
I'd bet on a concessionary contract at this rate.
6 ? If this cowers you into submission what'll you do this time around with DHL/ABEX and ASTAR in the wings?
I'd bet on a concessionary contract at this rate.
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Where did Bobb say anything about 5 months apart? You insist on spouting your own view of the “facts”.
You were probably too busy flying your 172 to listen to his VARS.
Last edited by DHC2 Driver; 6th Apr 2007 at 19:06.
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6 ? If this cowers you into submission what'll you do this time around with DHL/ABEX and ASTAR in the wings?
I'd bet on a concessionary contract at this rate.
I'd bet on a concessionary contract at this rate.
Between Bob F., ALPA and Dewayne Worth(less) what happened - happened. It was Atlas pilots first contact. Now they know better. They know not to trust ANYONE including their supposed ALPA bretheren; Bobb certainly has that down, and trust me Atlas pilots are learning well from him.
We could certainly rehash this all day long - but isn't it time to move forward. The merger is a done deal. Lets get the protocols done and get to that contract shall we?
The DHL deal is with an entity called Polar World Wide which is NOT Polar Air Cargo. Do you all think it is wise to hang your hats on a deal you might not have any part of?
What will happen will happen. Time to get professional and finish the contract. Bobb did everything he could to delay and depart, but it ain't workin. Atlas pilots are done trusting him.
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You are correct DHC2 driver. Whatever will happen will happen. But the Polar pilots are not going to just "jump" into this thing without protections. You talk about "moving forward" constantly. We would be glad to move forward if given the protections that we went on strike for(and would again). The pilots are tied to the certificate. Atlas pilots, AAWWH management, and DHL can forget about Polar Worldwide until the Polar pilots are in the ballgame as well.
Could all this mess affect the DHL deal???
Could all this mess affect the DHL deal???
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Just an Observer
The pilots are tied to the certificate
Could all this mess affect the DHL deal???
Can't We All Just Get Along?
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767I why don't you come right out and say what you mean.
This merger has been a WHOLE lot like when United (Stephan Wolfe) bought Air Wisconsin...and the pilots are just as acrimonious. Or perhaps you don't remember that?
I am just assuming here, that because of your 767I name, and the fact that all of your posts originate from the Bay Area, that you are a UAL pilot - so why are you involving yourself in something you obviously know nothing about - save for the one side you are hearing about in the noodle shop in Narita.
An objective person would get two sides to the story. While management created this mess, it is a dispute between two ALPA carriers. Not management and labor. So why the comment about a management stoolie?
Who is right in this dispute? Probably neither party - or both. It depends on your outlook. The facts and the history, however, are indisputable although the Polaroids would like to change them -rewrite history so to speak.
This merger has been a WHOLE lot like when United (Stephan Wolfe) bought Air Wisconsin...and the pilots are just as acrimonious. Or perhaps you don't remember that?
I am just assuming here, that because of your 767I name, and the fact that all of your posts originate from the Bay Area, that you are a UAL pilot - so why are you involving yourself in something you obviously know nothing about - save for the one side you are hearing about in the noodle shop in Narita.
An objective person would get two sides to the story. While management created this mess, it is a dispute between two ALPA carriers. Not management and labor. So why the comment about a management stoolie?
Who is right in this dispute? Probably neither party - or both. It depends on your outlook. The facts and the history, however, are indisputable although the Polaroids would like to change them -rewrite history so to speak.
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Thanks Trash
DH2
you are some piece of work.
you are some piece of work.
Why is it that the truth is only the real truth when it comes out of a Polar pilots mouth?
How are things in Memphis? I will be there next week. Care to get together for a beer? I'll even buy.
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Tiger Guy
Po Boy. It is written in the PAC CBA Sect. 1 Scope clause Sect. C Successorship.
Beaver, I don't want to get into this inane thread again but as I was working for Polar back in the B.F days. I can't comment on any conversations that he may have had with Bourne.The only people that can are those two. BUT I do know that Polar didn't have enough crews to operate their own flights let alone 6 airplanes from Atlas. So that is nonsense. Cato and Shuyler had put a freeze on hiring.
When I saw that Cato and Shuyler were at Atlas. Two Lorenzo clones, I was gone. They are living proof that the Satan mated with Baboons.
Beaver, I don't want to get into this inane thread again but as I was working for Polar back in the B.F days. I can't comment on any conversations that he may have had with Bourne.The only people that can are those two. BUT I do know that Polar didn't have enough crews to operate their own flights let alone 6 airplanes from Atlas. So that is nonsense. Cato and Shuyler had put a freeze on hiring.
When I saw that Cato and Shuyler were at Atlas. Two Lorenzo clones, I was gone. They are living proof that the Satan mated with Baboons.
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You have to remember that the planes we're talking about were doing China Air, very regular schedule and repetitive. We figured that if Fell said do it to the Polaroids, they would and could do it with an average of four extra days a month. GOOD money on the Polar contract.
No one knows if they would have, but with 15 minutes before going on strike in the post 9/11 environment, it was a bombshell!
The grounds for the hard feelings is that this decision by Fell was make well in advance, yet he didn't get around to telling anyone until tracked down at a BBQ in Anc with 15 minutes to go.
BTW, there were more that just Bourne/Fell on the phone on the Atlas end.
So more than two know what happened and was said.
This is not to argue over who is at blame for a contract, just to clarify some info out there.
No one knows if they would have, but with 15 minutes before going on strike in the post 9/11 environment, it was a bombshell!
The grounds for the hard feelings is that this decision by Fell was make well in advance, yet he didn't get around to telling anyone until tracked down at a BBQ in Anc with 15 minutes to go.
BTW, there were more that just Bourne/Fell on the phone on the Atlas end.
So more than two know what happened and was said.
This is not to argue over who is at blame for a contract, just to clarify some info out there.
Last edited by WhaleDriver; 7th Apr 2007 at 21:21.