Polar to Fire all the FE's!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
From: New York
Polar to Fire all the FE's!
I just heard about the firing of all but four of the Flight Engineers at Polar. This action is being taken under contract section 19 , also known as "Section 19 Action". Section 19 is "Discipline and Discharge". On what grounds are they using this section against the FE's?
This stinks, because as a result, they will have no recall rights after the merger of Polar and Atlas. If they found work for a parked classic after the merger, they'd have to hire off the street? Do they save any money be firing them? Other than the obvious, what's wrong with just furloughing with recall rights.
I bet the court costs are gonna be huge.
This stinks, because as a result, they will have no recall rights after the merger of Polar and Atlas. If they found work for a parked classic after the merger, they'd have to hire off the street? Do they save any money be firing them? Other than the obvious, what's wrong with just furloughing with recall rights.
I bet the court costs are gonna be huge.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: Earth
Originally Posted by WhaleDriver
I just heard about the firing of all but four of the Flight Engineers at Polar. This action is being taken under contract section 19 , also known as "Section 19 Action". Section 19 is "Discipline and Discharge". On what grounds are they using this section against the FE's?
This stinks, because as a result, they will have no recall rights after the merger of Polar and Atlas. If they found work for a parked classic after the merger, they'd have to hire off the street? Do they save any money be firing them? Other than the obvious, what's wrong with just furloughing with recall rights.
I bet the court costs are gonna be huge.
This stinks, because as a result, they will have no recall rights after the merger of Polar and Atlas. If they found work for a parked classic after the merger, they'd have to hire off the street? Do they save any money be firing them? Other than the obvious, what's wrong with just furloughing with recall rights.
I bet the court costs are gonna be huge.
Maybe you should be asking them some pointed questions. Try to do it in front of someone that can verify what they are saying though.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: USA
Originally Posted by mercpc9
I guess your crack MEC and Robin Hair (Neg Committee Chair) didn't tell you that they rejected a deal with Cato that would have furloughed rather than fired the engineers. I don't know the full details of the deal and the drawbacks, but I am aware of it through ALPA National.
Maybe you should be asking them some pointed questions. Try to do it in front of someone that can verify what they are saying though.
Maybe you should be asking them some pointed questions. Try to do it in front of someone that can verify what they are saying though.
Merc, I think for once they were told the truth by the MEC. The FEs decided not to take the furlough and it makes sense, they will never come back. Might as well try to fight for severence pay, whatever it is, better than going away with nothing. And if they get NOTHING then they will be in the same position as if they had taken the furlough, out for good... Can't blame them for that.
The good side of what is happening to them right now though is that there are quite a few openings for them. A few have already found jobs and many have interviews coming up. I don't know if there will be as many openings left for FEs when AAWH decides to park the remaining classics... In a way it might be a blessing. Time will tell... (BTW, 2 of my Atlas buds have already sent me their CVs to try to beat the rush)
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: Earth
Originally Posted by Heilhaavir
Merc, I think for once they were told the truth by the MEC. The FEs decided not to take the furlough and it makes sense, they will never come back. Might as well try to fight for severence pay, whatever it is, better than going away with nothing. And if they get NOTHING then they will be in the same position as if they had taken the furlough, out for good... Can't blame them for that.
The good side of what is happening to them right now though is that there are quite a few openings for them. A few have already found jobs and many have interviews coming up. I don't know if there will be as many openings left for FEs when AAWH decides to park the remaining classics... In a way it might be a blessing. Time will tell... (BTW, 2 of my Atlas buds have already sent me their CVs to try to beat the rush)
The good side of what is happening to them right now though is that there are quite a few openings for them. A few have already found jobs and many have interviews coming up. I don't know if there will be as many openings left for FEs when AAWH decides to park the remaining classics... In a way it might be a blessing. Time will tell... (BTW, 2 of my Atlas buds have already sent me their CVs to try to beat the rush)
Having been in communication with a few other operations, they are not providing an upgrade in quality of life or compensation at this point for FE's if you enjoy living in the states.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: USA
Originally Posted by mercpc9
Considering the number of times I have been furloughed, being the first one out gives you the opportunity of being senior at the next operation.
Having been in communication with a few other operations, they are not providing an upgrade in quality of life or compensation at this point for FE's if you enjoy living in the states.
Having been in communication with a few other operations, they are not providing an upgrade in quality of life or compensation at this point for FE's if you enjoy living in the states.
Will these jobs be available when the second wave of parking Classics happen @ AAWH? Who knows....While your second point is correct, in this situation, a job at any of the outfits mentioned in my last post is still better than an unemployment check, don't you think?
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: Earth
Originally Posted by Heilhaavir
Exactly my point, probably a blessing for them that all this happens while coincidentally there is a demand for current qualified PFEs right now Will these jobs be available when the second wave of parking Classics happen @ AAWH? Who knows....
While your second point is correct, in this situation, a job at any of the outfits mentioned in my last post is still better than an unemployment check, don't you think?
Will these jobs be available when the second wave of parking Classics happen @ AAWH? Who knows....While your second point is correct, in this situation, a job at any of the outfits mentioned in my last post is still better than an unemployment check, don't you think?
Hopefully PFE's at both companies will take this as the writing on the wall about the future for PFE's in general and try to get some new licenses or if unable that to have plan "B" set up before the axe falls.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
From: New York
Originally Posted by mercpc9
Yes I do.
Hopefully PFE's at both companies will take this as the writing on the wall about the future for PFE's in general and try to get some new licenses or if unable that to have plan "B" set up before the axe falls.
Hopefully PFE's at both companies will take this as the writing on the wall about the future for PFE's in general and try to get some new licenses or if unable that to have plan "B" set up before the axe falls.
Did the Polar MEC do a "this deal or nothng" act? Advice from the now upgrading FE MEC member may not have been the best? Yes, he is one of the four upgrading FE's.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: USA
Originally Posted by Earl
To fire someone implies that the employee did something wrong.
Polar parked the airplanes, how can you fire someone that has nothing to do with managment or decisions made by them?
What kind of spin is this?
Polar parked the airplanes, how can you fire someone that has nothing to do with managment or decisions made by them?
What kind of spin is this?
From what I understand JC offered 2 choices, a furlough with a 5 year recall (they could have made it 10 years, I don't think they'll ever see their seat again anyhow) or termination with (anybody correct me if I'm wrong) a couple months severance pay???
Now, what is happening today should be NO surprise to anyone, this was basically announced years ago and many had the "that'll never happen, the Classic is a money maker" state of mind (and in a way they're right many other outfits are making money with the Classic, but that's another story
). So while a few anticipated this, got their pilot's ratings and upgraded to the right seat (and another handful to the left seat) the majority preferred the "wait & see" attitude. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "good for them", not at all, I'm just saying that it is NO surprise.On the other hand, the PO FEs are pretty fortunate to be put on the street at a time where there is a demand for their experience at 4 or 5 outfits as we speak. It is no fun to start over BUT they have a good chance of finding a new home, not as good as they had it, yet still a paycheck.
Some Atlas FEs are becoming worried with good cause, the future @ AAWH doesn't look good for them either. A couple of friends there are starting to look around NOW and I think they're right. You want to look for a job while you have a job, especially when there is hiring on the equipment you're on.
Funny I have a feeling that FEs on both sides will end up in the same outfits fairly soon, but which side will be senior to whom when the last Classic at Atlas is parked? Not stirring the pot, just a thought for those who still believe in the "that'll never happen" theory
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
From: New York
Originally Posted by Heilhaavir
I agree it's a real shame, but their reasoning (AAWH) is that since there are no more Classics (@ PO only for now) they don't need FEs anymore. The ones who have a pilot certificate may upgrade to the right seat. 4 of them passed the eval and will go through training.
From what I understand JC offered 2 choices, a furlough with a 5 year recall (they could have made it 10 years, I don't think they'll ever see their seat again anyhow) or termination with (anybody correct me if I'm wrong) a couple months severance pay???
Now, what is happening today should be NO surprise to anyone, this was basically announced years ago and many had the "that'll never happen, the Classic is a money maker" state of mind (and in a way they're right many other outfits are making money with the Classic, but that's another story ). So while a few anticipated this, got their pilot's ratings and upgraded to the right seat (and another handful to the left seat) the majority preferred the "wait & see" attitude. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "good for them", not at all, I'm just saying that it is NO surprise.
On the other hand, the PO FEs are pretty fortunate to be put on the street at a time where there is a demand for their experience at 4 or 5 outfits as we speak. It is no fun to start over BUT they have a good chance of finding a new home, not as good as they had it, yet still a paycheck.
Some Atlas FEs are becoming worried with good cause, the future @ AAWH doesn't look good for them either. A couple of friends there are starting to look around NOW and I think they're right. You want to look for a job while you have a job, especially when there is hiring on the equipment you're on.
Funny I have a feeling that FEs on both sides will end up in the same outfits fairly soon, but which side will be senior to whom when the last Classic at Atlas is parked? Not stirring the pot, just a thought for those who still believe in the "that'll never happen" theory
From what I understand JC offered 2 choices, a furlough with a 5 year recall (they could have made it 10 years, I don't think they'll ever see their seat again anyhow) or termination with (anybody correct me if I'm wrong) a couple months severance pay???
Now, what is happening today should be NO surprise to anyone, this was basically announced years ago and many had the "that'll never happen, the Classic is a money maker" state of mind (and in a way they're right many other outfits are making money with the Classic, but that's another story
). So while a few anticipated this, got their pilot's ratings and upgraded to the right seat (and another handful to the left seat) the majority preferred the "wait & see" attitude. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "good for them", not at all, I'm just saying that it is NO surprise.On the other hand, the PO FEs are pretty fortunate to be put on the street at a time where there is a demand for their experience at 4 or 5 outfits as we speak. It is no fun to start over BUT they have a good chance of finding a new home, not as good as they had it, yet still a paycheck.
Some Atlas FEs are becoming worried with good cause, the future @ AAWH doesn't look good for them either. A couple of friends there are starting to look around NOW and I think they're right. You want to look for a job while you have a job, especially when there is hiring on the equipment you're on.
Funny I have a feeling that FEs on both sides will end up in the same outfits fairly soon, but which side will be senior to whom when the last Classic at Atlas is parked? Not stirring the pot, just a thought for those who still believe in the "that'll never happen" theory
Connie isn't looking at FE's anymore.
Tradewinds has furloughed.
Cargo 360? Air Atlanta? Maybe Southern? Some of the Polar FE's came from there.
Just wondering?
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 844
Likes: 0
From: USA
Lots of 747 and L-1011 operators out there.
Thing these F/E's have to watch out for especially abroad is paying for your own
recurrent and then flying for the said company and then not get paid.
Sometimes not even a ticket back home.
Air atlanta Icelandic is a good bet, worked for them many years, they will pay you. on time. everytime.
But some of these other operators you may be going to the US consulate for a ticket back home if you cannot afford.
There are jobs abroad but be very careful of some of these companies.
Best of luck to the F/E's.
Thing these F/E's have to watch out for especially abroad is paying for your own
recurrent and then flying for the said company and then not get paid.
Sometimes not even a ticket back home.
Air atlanta Icelandic is a good bet, worked for them many years, they will pay you. on time. everytime.
But some of these other operators you may be going to the US consulate for a ticket back home if you cannot afford.
There are jobs abroad but be very careful of some of these companies.
Best of luck to the F/E's.
Last edited by Earl; 7th July 2006 at 22:17.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: USA
Originally Posted by WhaleDriver
Just who is hiring FE's right now? Focus isn't, in fact the boss FE is telling people their overmanned. Focus folks are sitting in hotels for days on end.
Connie isn't looking at FE's anymore.
Tradewinds has furloughed.
Cargo 360? Air Atlanta? Maybe Southern? Some of the Polar FE's came from there.
Just wondering?
Connie isn't looking at FE's anymore.
Tradewinds has furloughed.
Cargo 360? Air Atlanta? Maybe Southern? Some of the Polar FE's came from there.
Just wondering?
Albeit what you just wrote I just called a friend at TDX. He said they are expecting more airplanes and planning on hiring next month (any TDX guys & gals care to confirm?).
SAI just hired a class of 30, some of your PO buds are there, you might want to get in touch with them. According to them they are planning on running 2 more classes this year, how big? I don't know.
If you're ready to move around a little, AAI's not that bad.
You need me to type up your resume too?
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
From: New York
I heard that Tradewinds crews are voting with their feet and leaving in droves for Southern Air, which sounds like not much of an improvement. I saw on the web that they had a hull loss last month with blown-up engine on takeoff. When you connect the dots you might wonder what's going on there.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
From: LAX
You have reasonably accurate info, Heilhaavir. The other option mentioned, only consisted of a meager 1 month's salary of severance pay (an insult to 12 yr FE's!). Neither option was accepted, so the company fired the engineers under what little obscure contractual language they could scrounge (section 19 - misbehavior /incompetence). They did this under the grounds that Polar's PFE's were incompetent to pass an FO check ride (the only seat remaining).
What a shame that the Atlas and Polar pilot groups could not get along over the years. They now need each other's solidarity more than ever. Sadly instead, both will inherit the mud that was created.
What a shame that the Atlas and Polar pilot groups could not get along over the years. They now need each other's solidarity more than ever. Sadly instead, both will inherit the mud that was created.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: NY
I think it is a samrt move by the company. It is the only way to get the FE's out of the senority list at Polar. At Atlas the FEs are on a seperate list, where they belong....it is a dying profession. Wake up and smell the Jet-A!!!!!
SkyGod
Joined: Aug 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,624
Likes: 107
From: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Albeit what you just wrote I just called a friend at TDX. He said they are expecting more airplanes and planning on hiring next month (any TDX guys & gals care to confirm?).
Rumors says 30 crews.
Guys are walking out in droves for various reasons. Hopefully
managment will see the light and do something about the conditions and
compensation.
45% turnover right now, those who stay behind move up the list like a rocket.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 216
Likes: 1
From: United States
Originally Posted by GiantPilot
I hear the latest round of furlough letters have gone out at Polar.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
From: LAX
I think GiantPilot was referring to the furlough of more of Polar's junior -400 birdmen. . . . Polar seems to be shrinking, and Atlas is not far behind!
. . . . Watch as America's cargo airline's go the way of America's merchant marine . . .
. . . . Watch as America's cargo airline's go the way of America's merchant marine . . .