Housing
 

What’s the latest rumour on the housing policy? Will we all lose housing? Get 25 years but sacrifice something or just the normal 15 years with rent after the 15 years?

The AOA has an update for all members.

Based pilots will lose their HKG housing benefits and will receive a base rate only if they choose to return to HKG, in exchange for all LEP getting the same base rate and all pilots on expat terms presently in HKG keeping their housing benefits plus getting it extended to 25 years.

If you are right GTC, that would be the slow death of proper expat housing. With all new recruits being cadets or DEFOs on a base, means the numbers on expat housing will only die away. We can't let that happen!

Will make it hard for them to attract people to come to Hong Kong me thinks!

We are a HK based airline after all!

Another sweet deal that looks after the old and screws the new!

Then all the company has to do is open lots of bases. If they close them like Amsterdam, or have problems with labour laws in other bases, bring them all back to HKG later.
That way former based pilots will all live in Tung Chung.
Another divide and conquer strategy, brilliant.

It won't look so brilliant when a large number of based pilots simply quit instead....

Based pilots will lose their HKG housing benefits and will receive a base rate only if they choose to return to HKG, in exchange for all LEP getting the same base rate and all pilots on expat terms presently in HKG keeping their housing benefits plus getting it extended to 25 years.

....are you saying that is what's coming, or that is what's already happened?!:uhoh:

Nobody in their right mind would a)come to Hong Kong in the first place or b)return to Hong Kong after a basing without the full housing being offered. Unless, that is, you've been rejected by every decent airline flying where you call home.

But is that who Cathay wants flying their logo around?

Proffessionals or pussies?
 

Come on guys!

This has been the companies agenda all along, to try to screw housing out of us, little by little. And this is the only reason we can afford stay here!

We cannot allow a new generation of new staff and returning staff to be given lower conditions. Ask any A scaler, this will erode all of our Hong Kong based conditions in the future. We must stop this now!

All hong kong based pilots should get full housing (including all cadets after qualification period)!! For every year they are in HKG. We should be accepting nothing less.

The company just made a 6 billion dollar profit, why the hell would we take a pay drop/condition drop now!! (I'm talking over the whole pilot body, not just your selfish situation!) :ugh:

We the cathay pilots are the only ones that can stop this from happening. The company won't, the joining pilots won't (they will still come, mark my word, albeit now after every other company).

If we allow this C scale....we're idiots!

Who in their right mind you say?
 

Well, there appears to be THOUSANDS of applicants lining up to take jobs with CX and accepting NO HOUSING. They are called CEP's.....and that has worked so well that CX are doing a short course for CPL applicants still wanting the CEP path....and so on, and so on..... Just look at the Fragrant Harbour Wannabe's forum!!

The gate was opened and horse bolted long ago it seems.

And what has or will the AOA do for you guys at CX or those looking to join? More hot air? And what of pilot solidarity? A myth.

Sorry guys, but your past is the greatest indicator of your future. Housing is being bred out of CX. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Housing is not for housing
 

The housing allowance is part of the overall package.

I used it to pay for my apartments, then sold them and invested the money elsewhere. If you take housing away you are taking away the ability for many of us to make any money in HKG (the salary is spent on living costs).

Without housing there is no point putting up with the hassles of Hong Kong (poor education for kids, life shortening air pollution, bad food).

Yes, the company does want to keep cutting, but why the hell should we agree to this????

Bases are all full so I'm never getting out of HKG and I can now get 25 yrs housing so I'm alright. Where do I sign? What's the downside for me?

'Bases are all full so I'm never getting out of HKG and I can now get 25 yrs housing so I'm alright. Where do I sign? What's the downside for me?'

Thats right jack, just think about yourself!

We're talking about these housing negotiation rumours like they are facts.

I think we are screwing ourselves if we start speculating on how bad the housing negotiations could turn out. Its like we're discussing an upcoming failure before its happened.

Let's let the negotiating committee do their work and not add rumours to their list of problems. Why don't we talk about what we want to see from these negotiations.. not what we're hoping to avoid.


Just my 2 cents

Bollocks to negotiations! they were done before SLS. 25years housing if pilots do SLS, well they did the SLS, just change 15 to 25 and thats it. If they are going to piss about and go back on their word. I'll stick with what we have at the moment, 15 years homeownership and then rent for twice as much at the companies expense!

Agree with waterskier. GTC58 is stirring up the proverbial and talking as if it is fact. And of course he got some bites from people who have taken it as such. Way too much of that goes on in this forum.

I responded to the first poster what's the latest rumour in regards of housing negotiations. However, I know for a fact that this was offered to the HKAOA. The big question is if the HKAOA thinks redistributing some of the available housing pie to the LEPs in exchange of taking some away from the based pilots is OK and will consider the offer in some form. As we all know the HKAOA just submitted a counter offer.

Also rumour has that the new base rate would be somewhere between HKD30k-40k/month.

Anyways, it looks like we all will know in the not so distant future what's proposed and can vote on it.

Believe what you want, after all it's called a rumour network.

Expectation Management
 

Yep, expectation management at its finest.

Why are we even negotiating 25 years?
 

Why are we even negotiating 25 yrs housing.
:ugh:
This was already part of the SLS deal last year, was it not?
I must be missing something here. We should already have it and if not serious questions need to asked as to why.

I am tired of having to constantly come back and fight for conditions that were already promised!

Another court case perhaps?

Let us not forget that extending home ownership to 25 years is a BENEFIT for the company!! If the scheme ends at 15 years, then we go rent a suitable place at the rental ceiling, which happens to cost the company signifcantly more $$$.

Extending it 25 years is a win/win deal for all. But of course not good enough for CX.

I say we just keep it as is and I'll see you all in the Four Seasons in a few years!!

As long as there are people at CX like stillalbatross then CX will continue this downward spiral.

And it appears that the like of him/her are in the majority.

The down side for you stillalbatross is the sale of your integrity. But, so long as your nest is feathered.... But you NEVER have the right to complain and seek support when you are screwed.

(Well put cxlinedriver).

Why change?
 

Housing is just part of the overall package. If Tony T wants to apply market forces to salaries, then it can be applied to housing also. I joined on a set of conditions. I am keeping my side of the deal by working when rostered (provided I am fit). Let me keep the housing I agreed to.

The LEPs joined on their conditions. If they don't like them, then let market forces apply and they can either get a better job elsewhere, or the company can pay them more (increase their housing) to retain them.

One group of pilots should not have to pay for an improvement in conditions for another groups of pilots.

Typical cx. Trying to keep it zero (reduced) cost.

Don't worry about it! The AOA will negotiate a lesser deal for us so it's ok!:ok:

Why should somebody be punished if they go on a base? The simple fact is the cadets should not be entitled to any housing full stop. I bet most only joined the AOA in order to extract this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK.

We're going to have the ludicrous scenario now of somebody coming back to HK for a command earning less money than a fellow captain of a similar vintage, how is that fair? Just let us keep our housing priviledge as it is, the pay rise can wait.

EXEZY,

I didn't join the AOA "in order to extract this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK."

I'd also like to point out to you that this 'offer', if it really exists, came from the Company, not the local pilots.

After a certain group complained that it was discriminatory to not be given housing allowance, wasn't it?

EXEZY,

You don't have to call us a 'certain' group. Ours was a protestation or affirmation, not a complaint.

Since you seem to have come to this generalisation of the local pilots quite lightly, and given the fact that I do not know of anyone who intends on "extract(ing) this housing deal at the expense of their "mates" in HK.", the appropriate response to your accusation would be: 'No'.

No Housing for Cadets.
 

I agree with the view that the Cadets should not get housing allowance for the following reasons.

1. They signed their contracts, and so they should have the integrity to stick with them, rather than crying "racist", and asking for a massive increase in their remuneration.

2. The vast majority of them were born, and have family, in Hong Kong. So they already have a place to live. This does not apply to expats.

3. They have had the easiest run in the history of aviation. Full training and board paid for, then straight into a heavy jet. This is the benefit they get.
If they get housing, then the rest of us should be able to bill Cathay for all our training costs.

4. If the AOA pushes this, and Cathay agrees, it sets the terrible precedent that one party can force a massive change in the contracts of one section of the pilot body.
I guarantee that this precedent will be used against us in the future.

5. If the Cadets want to get expat housing, then they are more than welcome to leave their family and friends in Hong Kong, and become expats themselves.
Emirates, Korean, China Airlines etc, are always hiring.

6. The cadets say that its equal pay for equal work. But all industries in the world pay people according to their experience. As does cathay, in our seniority salary scales. The cadets have far inferior experience to even the most low qualified direct entry S/O or F/O, and so their package reflects this.

I am not rejecting the idea of the AOA fighting to improve our conditions, but I think that defending our existing conditions should be a priority.

I was thinking the AOA should take this to the company. Only a few minor changes here and there to the contract.
41. CAGE AND CAGE RENTAL ASSISTANCE – EXPATRIATE
OFFICERS
41.1. The Company will provide Cage and Cage Rental Assistance to Expatriate
Officers. This is designed to assist Officers in renting suitable cages in Hong
Kong.
41.2. Cage Rental assistance will be adjusted to reflect market conditions for cages in Hong Kong.
41.3. Cages and Cage Rental Assistance will continue during Annual Leave
41.4. Expatriate Officers will be provided with Cage Rental Assistance in
accordance with Company Policy.
:ok:

Anyone against housing assistance for cadet entry pilots is myopic in the extreme. Given that recruitment for CEP's is running at approx 120 per year, I ask you to reflect which demographic will be the minority in a mere 10 years from today.
What bargaining power do you expect then to our precious housing allowance.
Short term thinkers with big watches !

That's assuming that they emulate the existing cadets by signing a contract knowing full well the terms and conditions and then a few years down the line demand something that was never part of the deal and hence screw their colleagues at the same time! What is it with you people? We join the company and our conditions are gradually eroded whilst you expect everything, contrary to the contracts you signed.

Let me see........LEP, Local Employed Pilot: Lets take a look at that name and what it means shall we. There is no mention of Expat in that name...

Therefore it naturally follows that you don't get Expat allowances.

Certainly not at my expense anyway.

Sorry to be harsh but thems the facts of life.

I and many others are members of the AOA, if my association is able to negotiate any expat allowances for LEP's then fantastic for them, BUT it should never be at my expense.

Firstly let's get something straight - I am not a LEP / CEP.

Secondly, a fair proportion of CEP's are not Hong Kong locals.

Thirdly, can any of you point me to a statement that housing assistance for CEP's will be at the expense of the scheme currently in place for expatriate officers. No ?

Finally, and I address this one specifically to you nitpicker, I put to you that failing to address this lack of housing assistance for CEP's will, in the long run, will be DIRECTLY at your expense.

Think of this purely as a long term financial transaction and start using your head instead of your heart. I assure you that this is the methodology being used by the upper floors. This is how they have conducted their attack for the past 17 years and this is why they have the runs on the board and we have what ????? A continuing decline !

Exactly. It is the pay rise for ALL which is at the expense of expat housing.

"It is the pay rise for ALL which is at the expense of expat housing"
says a two bit rumour forum called pprune.
I may be proved wrong here but lets not confuse fact with fiction

Are you suggesting that there is no pay rise and that the only change will be the base rate for all CEPs in return for the loss of housing in HKG for current based officers? If so then that would have no hope in hell of being voted through. The company and the AOA would know that. I believe if true, this housing deal will be linked to a pay rise for all of us, and enough of a pay rise for the company to believe they have a shot at it being voted through.

I think based on the COS, the company can do whatever they want.
Just check the COS section 41, 42, 46, and 47

I believe both expat and local are entitled to rental and housing assistance as per company policy. ( which can be amended from time to time) =( We are so screwed

No pilot, wherever they come from and however they came to join the company, has advocated a degradation of anyone's contract in order to fund an increase to the local pilots' remuneration.

Whether or not someone thinks the gap between the expat package and local package should be reduced is a completely separate issue from where one thinks that money should come from.

Everyone's free to express their opinions on each of those points, but to reason your objection by baselessly accusing the locals of intending to take money from other pilots is wrong.