ACMS

By your admission there. KA pilots have big balls. QED really. If integration is untenable for me. I will go. If you lost a 'single slot' you wouldn't leave your comfort zone of the last 14 years.

Yes. You will get nasty. Rally a fractured pilot group in a direction that will be a catalyst for more eventual disunity and power to management.

Suggesting KA pilots have the most to gain is utter garbage. Frankly, I believe we have the most to lose. Possible dilution of our unity and good cockpit spirit and culture. In a move toward the fractured, spiteful and pathetically self serving psyche evidenced amongst the CX pilots.

If I stole your logic too. Staying seperate would maintain our access to our fast growing region. Where growth needs to be expanded providing rapid and preserving fast promotional opportunites for our pilots. It doesn't work like that though. CX aircraft will expand over our traditional routes and us over theirs.But if I was a goose I would suggest 'blood in the streets' everytime a CX 777 runs up to PEK or PVG.

Staying seperate could facilitate a grab at a number of group expansion opportunities. Out of CC and with a new found efficiencies. Coupled with a high success rate in command upgrades. KA will be a bit of a testing ground for CX management- if we can expand fast we will. A junior DPA member is better served in this scenario.

We bought you attitude will cost you dearly. Even to suggest this line of thought opens the very vulnerabilities of your pilot group. Have a look at every one of the industrial battles you have been routed in. And I know this means a lot to you; but what has been the standing on 89 of the two pilots groups ( KA & CX ) ?

Yes. KA pilots could be giving up a great deal with integration. Even reasonable offers could be detrimental to DPA membership. But sometimes, sacrifices need to be made for the greater- group. This last statement, if fact, a logic to suggest management would thwart attempts to integrate happily.

And Then
As do the bulk of my collegues. There are about 400 “A” scalers left in CX. The other 1800 are “B” scale.

CX are looking at various ways to combine the two seniority lists without pissing off one party more than the other, after all they have just tried putting out an inferno in KA, the results of which have yet to be seen. They don’t want to start an even bigger one in CX. It would appear that they are favouring a similar arrangement to what happened when Qantas took over Australian in the early 90’s. All those that joined before the takeover will maintain their seniority in their respective airlines. Those that joined after the takeover will be on a common seniority list based on DOJ.

I think if you open up your eyes you'll realise that most KA Crew have a lot to gain.................
Most CX Crew have nothing to gain by picking up a white A330 to PVG.
And a lot to lose if they have to go behind KA Crew at the staff travel conter for those illusive J class seats to home.
And that's not to mention basing opportunities.
Don't worry, CX S/O's wont be able to take your promotions, you will be protected.
So ANSWER MY QUESTION?
Up until now the main reason a lot of KA Crew find it easy to walk is that they have only invested 3 to 5 years in HK, the COS wasn't that good and the flying crap, so they are not giving up a lot to leave.
On the other hand a lot of CX Crew have 10+ years here, the opportunity of basings ( that's why most join CX ) and fairly good flying. So we don't just want to throw all that away and walk.

And then
 

All future commands are on B scales - whether that be in KA or CX. So there is no point comparing the cost of my A scale to KA B scales. You are talking of bringing 'cheap' KA crew to replace "expensive" CX crew. Given that KA earn more than CX B scalers, how is that cheaper than using our 'cheaper' B scalers?

Rather than focus on any possible disadvantages that a merger might result in, focus on this: over the next 10 years there will be 500 less commands, 500 more senior pilots at staff travel and up to 500 less basings available due to the introduction of RA65.

We seem to be running around blaming everyone but the culprit for our current problems. KA and any possible merger are not the problem.

Over the last 5 or so years - KA has had no payrise until now - that payrise is worth approx 20% when you count improvements to conditions as well. EK have given over 40% payrises. QF have given an effective payrise well over 20% when you count salary and increases in MGH etc and we are still waiting on the results of EBA 8. The rumour mill has it that EK will increase salaries by 30-40% next April.


B scalers in CX get 3%.

2008 CX payscales are equivalent to what CX paid in 1992. At the zoologist's and mathematician's proposed rate of increase, B scales will finally reach A scales around 2015.

Ok, any questions on who the bad guy is?

Battle the hard yard boys and good luck to all.

Those with NO seniority and half a brain have their eye on the ball.

The junior brigade can actually smell the coffee and are packing their bags with their collective cv's.

It's going to be very interesting times for those with enough seniority to care.

MAX:cool:

What kind of question is that? Are you new to the world of aviation and seniority lists? Do you really think it is viable for a 15+ year individual to change airlines and jump to the bottom of the list unless they were gaining in location...liking going home!

I don't think NC is from Dubai!:}

Must have a hard time filing stuff, as now there's double-ups with the seniority numbers. Have a look at the end of the -400 freighter lists and you'll see them starting again with #3, 4 etc (ASL guys?):suspect:

At a recent Fleet Forum a manager said all will be fixed soon. "Admin error, the list WILL be updated".

We shall see..............

ACMS,

I find your post 39 very revealing. As I was reading the thread the question a thought entered my head "I bet he is Australian" I then chided myself for making such an assumption, then I get to your post where your tone was viscious wounded and nasty, bullish and with an implied threat regarding giving jumpseats to OZ to anyone who challenges you. The fact is I believe many pilots who joined CX would not have had the required experience to join KA. Those guys have also done their time and had their challenges. The WE BOUGHT THEM, hyperbolic crap is immature.

I never really had an opinion about Australians until I came to HK and was shocked at meeting not all but a significant number of Australian Pilots. You refer to the very sad chapter in Australian Aviation and your role within resulting in you loosing your job. You then refer to Scabs.The loss you had was very traumatic but like it or not there are other perspectives on what happened around that time. From a neutral perspective it may not been all seen in the same light you project. The "pain body" of many of you guys carry around while understandable is actually very distructive not only to you but to many others. To even use the word scab about another individual is inexcusable as is threatening and bullying. That "f**ck everyone because I was hurt "attitude is childish and when a group feel that way it is dangerous.
With such an attitude you leave no other choice to a mgmt body except to treat you like crap.

vc
I agree with much of what you say, in particular I dislike the overuse of the word scab. However, I think that ACMS has used the word correctly in this instance!

LDL Sorry to disagree but words like that and attitudes that fuel it are NEVER justifiable regardless of emotion fueled opinion about another person. Fact is on this issue like many others, everyone wants what they want and when something doesn't suit them they cry foul. In recent history even union members who were negotiating against certain contract and being offers and whilst negotiations were in practice they demanded no pilots indicate interest, just as they are now To all pilots and then THEY THEMSELVES negotiated the deals , resigned the unions and took up the places- why because it suited them and their lifestyles there's integrity for you...

Pilots for the first time in many years are in a strong position in that the industry is short of them. Lets drop the rara school boy bully boy tactics and move on. The more of this short sited living in the past confrontational attitude with the THEM and US tones the BIGGER THE WASTE and damage done. Expect the worse and it tends to happen.

From what I can see the KA guys have a big dilemma here, if the Captains stay here and CX keep the operations separate they are stuck in the hell of flying into China indefinatly. If a co pilot moves to the Manchester freighter he/she extends their command upgrade time to about 10 years. However if someone is ready to leave HK and go home and are a Captain then its a good deal, risks and all and very fair to a bloke or gal that has accrued thousand of hours and gone though the stress of command possibly at least once before coming t KA and then again in KA. Meanwhile CX manage to keep very experienced guys that may otherwise walk, and expand the fleet, THAT is good for the company.


All that said its time CX was run by people who actually were passionate about the business and knew the art of
1.Attracting and hiring the right people in the first place NOT just the cheapest or most available.
2. Making those people feel valued and a part of the company and its solutions.
3.Treated them with respect for the professionals they are ensured their dignity was preserved and created an atmosphere of trust instead of dear.

EVEN if money is their ONLY goal, they would make MORE in the long run if they ran a company like this....

Re the freighter offer to KA - it would be a start to provide the COS, Payscales and more than 3 weeks in which to make up your mind....unbelievable:ugh: