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After the Emirates Brief, A perspective.

Just fresh from the brief and I will make this brief. The presentation was professional. I went thinking that I wanted to fly for Emirates and left thinking thank god I fly for Cathay. After listening to pay, conditions and living in Dubai I almost wanted to kiss PW and NR on the 3rd and 9th floors respectively. A LIQUIOR LICENSE, WWWWWWWHHHHHAAAATTTTTTT??????
So I will say this GUYS/GALS WE DON'T HAVE IT THAT BAD!!!!!!!! Flame away if you need to but for those of us that were there; YIKES! I think I get it now.:p

Good presentation

I thought they provided a very well balanced perspective. No doubt some of their pilots are suffering similar disillusions as we are, but on the whole the offer was realistic.
If you are keen to find an alternative, then it is worth phoning Korean Airlines recruiting department as well. The main benefit here is the basing, and they will fly you to work in Seoul with 11 days off at home base per month. The pay is very good - they are expanding. It is similar to what CX would pay on a base, and a viable alternative if your preferred base port is full.
For more details:
Direct Personnel International Ltd.
Tel : +353-1-8138400
Fax: +353-1-8138401
e-mail : [email protected]
and :
http://www.directpersonnel.com/en/ht...ecruitment.asp

don't worry to much bout the liquor license every non muslim gets one after filling out a simple form. Crew gets a discount at the airport duty free which will be well below market price or otherwise a short drive to hole in the wall will take care of the problem.

Shame about the Ts & Cs

I agree with Saturn, I walked in with my completed online application and left with it still in my bag. Where do they think they are going to get the crews for the 100 aircraft on order and the 100 or so to be announced at the coming airshow in Dubai. Lots of gloss but no substance. Having been through Dubai for a number of years its not a cheap place to live contrary what the HR lady was trying to tell us, it used to be but not anymore.

So unfortunately I dont think CX and KA have much to worry about losing guys to Emirates unless their package improves substantially. They also fail to realise that having a company assigned house is not the same as choosing your own pad where you want to live and then have the company pay for it.

The search continues .....

thanks for the headsup guys and gals, i was planning on heading down to the brief but i think i will sit back and take a deep breathe and have a think about it first after what i have read. I have looked at the numbers for there pay etc and having been to dubai many times online, things arent getting cheaper over there, plus couple that with the number of accidents and deaths that occur each hour of everyday, i am safer with a honkie taxi!!!

hump-OUT

You need to look at the pros and cons of both CX and EK and work out what is important to you. You will get more money(after tax remember) etc in DXB but you can't get basings. You are closer to EUR but further away from Aus.

On money and time to command EK wins. On clean air EK wins. On flexibility of basings(so far!) CX wins.

I have a friend who has worked for both airlines. He said management is similar but training is superior in DXB - ie, they actually pass you if you pass your 4bar - no star chamber stuff.

We have pollution and a decade longer to command. They have more traffic accidents. Their education/housing allowance isn't taxed, ours is.

Depends what is important to you I guess!

So after all the hoo haa this week, how many guys actually turned up???

50-60 I would say today. Some in and out so hard to get a true count.

Maybe 10+ got interviews (I am sure all those who were interested did).

Again, money was worse, but perhaps made up by tax free ness of it..

I am re watching the video they handed out now.

Video??? Does anyone in HKG still own a video recorder? Did they give you choice of vhs or beta or "super 8"??? :)

I meant DVD..Mea Culpa...

And yes we have our own DVD. Looking forward to the next upgrade meeting when we review it.

The Management.

Surely getting a command in somewhere around 3 years....and getting it on merit and ability instead of the "at Cathay we don't spoon feed, ie train, and you earn your Cathay Command blah blah....." as opposed to 10 years would make up for any shortfall in equivalent payscales? If you were close to, or already had, a command at Cathay then apart from slightly cleaner air and an exciting drive to work there wouldn't be much point leaving. But if you were near the bottom with relatively high previous experience, with close to ten years to an attempt at a Cathay command and presently barely QLd on hospital corners, surely it would be worth the jump?
And could the relationship between the management and its workforce really be any worse than it is here?
It is certainly worth some consideration.
Anyway, where did I leave those white sheets.....the blue ones never fit....

:E

repeating myself yet again

You are at least 30% better off in after tax dollars after 10 years in EK vs CX. Assuming command after 5 years in EK(anticipated to be 3-5years) you will be earning 34% more after tax than at CX at the 10 year mark. This does not include ERP so it is likely to be closer to 40% more. Your career earnings will also be 34%+ more at EK assuming a similar cost of living. Remember that utilities are free, limo pickup and dropoff, housing and education allowances untaxed.

Bottom line, EK is well ahead of CX. And there is no reason to believe that there will not be another pay rise next May as there has been in every year this decade. ALso their increments are 3% not 2% like the new improved CX command scale.

There is more to life than money....but if money is your 'thing' then EK leaves CX way behind.

Most posters here are looking at the here and now.

Extrapolate the changes in CX over the past 10 years for the same period into the future, do the same for EK, then have a think about it.

Ahh, more pollution in Hong Kong and more construction in Dubai, am I close?:eek::}

a numerical challenge

OK I will...based on last 5 years and then doubled, CX salary would go up 0% and EK salary would double;-)

I read somewhere that EK had 102 aircraft in May - same as we had last Dec. I also read they have over 100 aircraft on order. Last I checked we had 29 ordered for delivery from Jan this year until some time in 2010+. So the less than 5 years to command assumption looks safe at EK.

Apparently RA65 will accelerate time to command which is handy as with an extra 500 geriatrics hanging around over the next 10 years we will need it.

I believe we have less commands planned next year than we had this year but not 100% certain. With RA65 we need about 50-60 less command courses per year(assuming 100% pass rate) if all the A scalers extend!

Good point jtr. CX pilot conditions are static, EK's are dynamic.

With any job you need to look at the macro economics of the company's situation if you are looking to the future. EK is the airline of an energetic government who are developing their country with vast strategic aims. CX is tied to a HKG government that has no power over the development of aviation in Hong Kong, either because of entrenched interests or mainland control.

One point that is often overlooked when searching for a pilots job is, what is the perceived position of a pilot in that company, and that country. For instance, when in Taiwan recently and a parent wanted to take a photo of the captain next to his four year old son, the comment from my new to CX trainee was "This is amazing, they treat us with such respect, this does not happen in my country." A true Borat moment.

Also, what is the perceived position of a pilot in the company? In companies where the Director of Flight Operations is not a pilot, you may find that pilots are treated as low grade labour, and our professionalism is either mis-understood or deliberately undervalued.

So many things to consider.

I really enjoyed the chap asking about the command upgrade pass rate...they almost didn't understand the question.. after getting a grip on what was actually being asked the reply was 95% atleast......

From the DFO's weekly news letter:

Quote:

Perhaps one other concern that I haven't addressed is that the recruitment of Direct Entry F/Os onto the passenger fleet in 2008 and the extension of captains beyond the age of 55 will slow down the number of upgrades. We have just completed the budget submission for next year and I can confirm that we plan to upgrade close to 90 S/Os to JF/O and 90 SF/Os to Captain in "08" very similar levels to "06" and "07". The limit on this continues to be set by the training capacity of the Company which is enhanced by extending C&T crew beyond the age of 55..

Does anyone actually know what the upgrade figures were for 06 & 07 respectively? Would be interesting to know the reality.

Taxed Allowances

How very balanced :yuk:.

It cannot be too comfortable having Emirates on the doorstep recruiting. Whatever the motivations of the posters above it is a sign of the times. At some point somebody will have to pay more to fill the cockpits.

Anyway, back to some complaining:

Tell me NC, how much tax will I pay the HKG taxman for my allowances? Couple of kids at school and using the housing to buy a concrete box?

............And how much will I pay in Dubai?

Milly

I do my calculations the same way as Number Crunch. The last 7 years my C.O.S went one way. My friends in EK ,(now all Commanders, first time passes, in line with their career planning /management ) have seen only improvement. From CX graph being way ahead 7 years ago, the EK upward graph is now crossing the CX flat line (at best a flat line) . Then extend the two line’s 5 year into the future………..no brainer!

As far as lifestyle the only way is to go and visit 2 mate for a couple of days each and get the different perspectives and observe their everyday lifestyle.

Did not mind the sand up my a$$ as it was on a Harley and a kick a$$ scrambler, washed of kite surfing in crystal clear unpolluted water. Wife loved the driving to shopping mall out the car and in the shop in 200 meters not fighting a crowd, and my daughter is hooked on horse riding that is virtually free compare to Hong Kong price.

Everyone for himself, but financially compare apples with apples and CX is way behind

Quote:

Here's a thought... maybe pay Check and Checkers a fair amount for the work they do and in addition employ enough so that you have surge capacity and hence no crap rosters, then maybe you will be able to keep them in the department longer, then you won't need to attack the conditions of employees purely to satisfy your bottom line.

International bases on the horizon?

Does anyone know what the commuter policy at EK is? As mentioned in earlier posts living in Hong Kong or Dubai is really relative to an individual's needs. However CX seems to have overcome that hurdle by opening up pilot bases internationally. EK does offers quicker upgrades with better wages but the thought of living in DBX is rather a downer for many.

In a market thats seems to have a shortage of qualified pilots worldwide, one would think that EK would follow suit and start offering some international bases.

Any word on that? Has it ever been discussed at EK? Personally I'd sersiously consider EK if it did not involve living in Dubai. Now thats not really flame bait but a personal preference.

RL.

Re:International bases on the horizon?

I attended the Singapore presentation on Monday
(headcount +/- 15, whereof 1 had applied on line)

Future basings are not considered and will not be in the future.
They want you to live in Dubai and "enjoy" the lifestyle.
(Commuting at your own risk....)

That's where I left the presentation.
(Headcount down to 14 lol)

The powers to be think that everyone cant wait to move to and live in Dubai but what they are missinf is that most expats that are in Dubai cant wait to leave.

Commuting very hard, flts are full ,no jump seat, no upgrades, ground staff will go out of there way to make your life hell..

The water is not clear anymore and the air is getting worst everyday.

Inflation @ 20% some things 50% increase

And dont get me started on the driving dangers.

Glad to hear thay the turnout was what it was in SIN

Quote:

Commuting very hard, flts are full ,no jump seat, no upgrades, ground staff will go out of there way to make your life hell..

The water is not clear anymore and the air is getting worst everyday.

Inflation @ 20% some things 50% increase

And dont get me started on the driving dangers.

Christ, sounds like Hong Kong.

Reputedly the reason for no international bases is so that you will spend your "hard earned" in the UAE.

Essential Buzz

I think it is more to do with control. With pilots on bases they have to comply with foreign labour laws. Having all the pilots based in Dubai allows them to do what they like, i.e. break contracts, ban organised labour and fire at will.

C404 has it right.

My take was they had more labour control both in terms of requiring less numbers and fewer laws.

very good points...but when it comes down to it, the law of market forces always trumps all....

The fact that EK have to conduct a roadshow and CX does'nt, says it all when you think about it. A sad reality for those of us at CX.

I disagree. CX has been conducting "roadshows" in the US for the last 2 years at about an average of 6 per year.

I was not aware of that

CX has been attending the AIRINC. Seminars throughout the U.S., standing at the podium describing their expansion plans, how many new planes,CX's route structure, etc.
They have also got a full ad in AIRINC's magazine.
I agree with Red Liner.
Market Forces gents (and ladies), as we are reminded often. Bottom line - if we can't negotiate and remain united now then we deserve what we get and truly have no excuse.

Ladies and Gents,

The EK Road-show presentation in HKG on Saturday was an interesting exercise in listening to what was said, understanding what was not being said, and attempting to read between the two based on the facts that were presented whilst remaining “on the rails”.

Perhaps I should start with some factual information. The presenters, CN Steve Westmacott (B777) and Donna (Flt Ops HR) delivered a mixed media presentation lasting a couple of hours.

The DVD that formed a substantial part of the presentation is floating around out there. According to Steve, they’ve “left 500 of them” in Singapore, Taipei and Hong Kong in the last week. A significant number of crew and a few partners attended the presentation.

As of this past week, EK Flight Operations HR has publically stated a target of 550 new joiners for the next year. The aircraft numbers arriving into their fleet are staggering. By 2008, EK will take one new aircraft every two weeks for the foreseeable future. Accordingly, it’s clear that the career prospects are equally as staggering.

There are presently a limited number of places for direct entry commands on the B777 only. Presumably they have sufficient applications in this area to meet their current target for this group and the impression that was given was that this was a small part of the overall requirement. Initial FO entry is based on a joiner with sufficient experience to achieve a command in 3 to 5 years. A limited number of FO entries are available for an accelerated command; i.e. < less than 3 years, however no guarantees. There is however a training bond arrangement to be dealt with by successful recruits

The EK company “projection” of your future involvement with EK and the UAE reflects the general economic projection of the UAE itself; come to EK to live and work in the UAE. Basing beyond DXB has not and is not a feature of the strategic plan and there is no foreseeable change on this position.

According to the presenters, UAE economic growth currently tops the world growth list at 16% year on year. Development in DXB, visually, economically and statistically, bears testimony to this fact and EK are quite “bullish” about this fact. From an aviation perspective, the present and projected rise of the Middle-East and Asian aviation hubs is the EK cause for aggressive business plans and they intend to capitalise on this situation in a very big way.

The other side of the economic picture is a current annual inflation rate that was stated as 10% per annum. This factor is being driven largely by the cost of housing, which goes so far as to be a large driving factor in the manner in which the EK accommodation package is presently established, managed and provided to staff. Accommodation appears to be a “take what you get” arrangement because there are very few choices really available, due to cost, availability and practicality.

The presenters were a little “hair triggered” about the EK total remuneration package. I pondered as to why and surmised that the number of components that have to be considered within the total package results in an unclear picture of the deal that’s on offer; direct remuneration – salary, duty allowances, education, other assistances; indirect remuneration – accommodation free, utilities free, tax free.

The management of the current and future remuneration package at EK is set to account for inflation through planned future adjustments. It also accounts for the burgeoning demand for overseas crew by having a currency protection mechanism built into the package, acknowledging that their crew have currency issues beyond the UAE.

To be fair, the presenters laid out a balanced view of life in DXB and the UAE, outlining the clear “pluses and minuses” which routinely are discussed by ex-patriot crew around the Asia-Pacific.

Comment:
Quite clearly, analysis of the career prospects and the current remuneration offer indicate that no prospective new joiner to a HKG based airline can ignore the offer at EK. No SO or FO position on offer in HKG at present offers anywhere near the potential reward.

The situation for experienced crew is however very different. EK have just spent the last week in the backyards of substantial airlines such Singapore Airlines, Eva Airways, China Airlines, Cathay Pacific Airways and Dragon Air, not to mention numerous smaller carriers. They’ve outlined that the vast majority of future recruitment will be as FOs, but what’s being offered to lever this group into an EK future is however not yet enough to compel experienced crew to commit to such a future.
http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/ExploreOurCareers/FlightDeckCrew/FlightDeck.asp

Absolutely spot on mate. My thoughts are certainly not enough to lure the more senior guys at CX and KA but as a new joiner they win hands down, depending of course on where you are happy to live.

housing allowance

Putting aside living in dubai, this is a personal thing that means something different for everyone for a variety of reasons, just concentrate on the housing.

If you're an SO or FO in HK at the moment with a family then you're starting to get priced out of the housing market, a single guy/girl can comfortably live in a 800-1000 sq foot place.

For me(single), the ability to be able to buy a place with the allowance in HK and have the captital growth go into my pocket is the only reason i'm here. You cannot even rent, let alone buy a similar apartment in dubai with the housing allowance they offer. so for me its not a good financial decision to go.

If I had a family here in HK there would be no way I would be able to buy a suitable place with the allowance now, hence I would be on the first camel train to the desert to live in one of those flash villas and have my kids' education paid for(tax free!).

404 Titan, correct me if I am wrong, but can they not do what EVA have been doing for years? They are based out of Taipei but have extended roster patterns in say your base area (6 days off). Local labor laws don’t apply.:ok:

Didn’t we have that once?:)

Mr. Bloggs

They probably could. My understanding though is that CX is on shoring the bases as a direct result of the “Croft” high court case in the UK. I really don’t know if this would apply to extended rosters though. It certainly is a grey area which may need to be tested. The question though is EK up for it considering the shellacking CX got?

CX seems to be boasting about the UK base only. They say other bases will follow. Is it a ruse? Can’t really see them going On-Shore in other areas especially, the USA? Are they playing us again?:sad::sad: